Russian Sub

[funny_guy]

Anyone else following this sub episode? I've been glued to the New York Times page for information. Its almost like a movie come to life. Its too bad.

 

[ShyGuy68]

Yes it's a shame that the crew are in danger if dying on that sub.

But I can't help to wonder why Russia turned down the help offered from both the States, and England soon after it had happened. And now England have a small sub that might be able to help on that way there. And Russia is having an emergency meeting with NATO as to how they might save the crew.

My question is were the Russians trying to hide something??


ShyGuy

 

[funny_guy]

I think that one reason is National pride, but also, the hatches on Russian subs are different than American. So, our rescue subs wouldn't be able to help them.

 

[MADDOG]

Those poor sailors. I swear, I couldn't think of many worse ways to go. I hope they get them out of there.

I was under the impression though that submarines had escape systems? A chamber that could fit a bunch of men that they let fill up with water. Once full with the prssure equalised, they simply open a hatch and swim to the surface. They're only in 110 meters (330ish feet) of water. Is that too deep to attemtp such an escape? Or aren't Russian subs equiped with those sysetms? Anyone know?

As for Russia refusing help from the West, the cold war may be "Over", but the East versus West mentality remains. Accepting help from the States unless there was no other way would have been like saying "The West is Best", and there's no way the Russians would have let that happen. It's good to see they've had a change of heart on that position though.

MADDOG

 

[funny_guy]

I was under the impression though that submarines had escape systems? A chamber that could fit a bunch of men that they let fill up with water. Once full with the prssure equalised, they simply open a hatch and swim to the surface. They're only in 110 meters (330ish feet) of water. Is that too deep to attemtp such an escape? Or aren't Russian subs equiped with those sysetms? Anyone know?

That may be true, but at that depth, the pressure is so high, that Nitrogen bubbles will form in you blood, and kill you. I think I read that or something.

 

[Expertise]

True the hatches on Russian subs are indeed different than on the NATO boats for which the US and Brit DSRV's are equipped but I don't believe this is the problem as they could do a hasty retrofit without much fear of a problem as the sub is in (relatively speaking) shallow water. In any case the Russian Navy has a DSRV of its own (although not as capable as the US unit)

Their reticence to involve NATO or other foreign powers along with the dribs and drabs of info that they are providing raises several questions.

1. Is the boat listing severely on the bottom? If it is the rescue vehicles of any nation are nigh on to useless.

2. Is it national pride or embarassment? Something went drasticly wrong here. The proof of it is that a) the boat is on the bottom b) they shut the reactors down (they are necessary for life support) c) american boats heard a loud underwater explosion from Kursk's location

3.Is there reluctance to allow outside help rational? Yes, in their view, I am sure it is. The Oscar and Typhoon boats are Russias newest and most capable "Boomers" and they dont want NATO (especially not the Yanks or Brits) poking around what are the "crown jewels" of their submarine and nuclear deterence force. The live of a 114 officers and men would be a small price to pay, in their view, to maintain the operational security of the other boats in their fleet.

4.No Nukes on board ....yeah right.

All things considered it is a tragedy and I pray they can get those men out and up.



[Edited by Expertise on 08-16-2000 at 09:54 AM]

 

[Bliss]

The lastest Reuters news is that the Russians have swallowed their pride and officially asked for British and Norwegian help. Guess it would kill them to have to directly ask my fellow Americans?!

Anywho, I hope that it is not too late for the poor souls on board the sub, but I agree with you Ex, I think they probably consider 118 (the latest figure quoted) lives a small cost for keeping their security secrets to themselves.

 

[Expertise]

Maddog

Most NATO boats have an "escape trunk" by which the crew "theoreticly" can escape by donning a hood type breathing aparatus with a flotation device which pretty near rockets them to the surface in an uncontrolled ascent. The more common use of this area is for "swimmer insertion" (read as SEALS, SBS, JTF II, spooks etc.).

This would only be used as a an absolute desperation measure as it is extremely risky (due to the "bends"), unless the boat is at a very shallow depth.

One type of German boat even has an escape "pod" (basicly an underwater life boat).

As to the Russians having similar kit, I don't know.

 

[Bonnie Wee Lassie]

I just hope they can rescue these poor boys. They did it once before 60 years ago so they should be able to do it again

 

[Expertise]

True Lassie they did. But they enjoyed almost perfect conditions with the exception of one day.

Everyone shares your sentiments i'm sure, but according to the latest reports it doesn't look good.

Time to start praying for a miracle.

 

[Bonnie Wee Lassie]

Well I am praying I haven't heard the news today does anyone have updates on the attempts. I last heard they had a 20hr window where the weather was concerned

 

[Bliss]

Bonnie,

You can get the latest news here: http://dailynews.yahoo.com/ over on the right under the heading Full Coverage.

 

[Bonnie Wee Lassie]

Thank you payne. I will go right away.

Bonnie

 

[Skitten]

Yes they did finally ask for help, but is not going to be easy and the more time goes by the worse it looks for the ones inside. I feel bad for those guys losing more air daily that really is no way to go. I hope that there is something that can be done, but it is not looking good. Russia is finally swallowing their pride, but not when it comes to the US. but I don't know if we would even be able to do much our sub is pretty old too. Anyway I do help they get the help and get that crew out safely.

 

[Wizard]

Once again I have to be diffrent. I feel for them, the family's ect. that could loss ther Dad or husband BUT do we have to get involved in everthing? Yes they may loose 100 plus men but is it worth lossing just one of our guys....we ask they said no...let them worry about it...I know that sounds hard but anytime something happens the good old US helps out and then gets shit on afterwards.....My personal opinon is when something happens in the world why do we all ways have to get into it?

I know that sounds rotten but I just can't see it being worth one of our folks lives let alone 10 or more......I feel for the guys down there.......I do .......

I just heard on the news there SOS has stoped and it may be to late now.......

[Edited by Wizard on 08-16-2000 at 05:14 PM]

 

[Bonnie Wee Lassie]

Yes that does sound rotten. Are you one of those people who could watch a person get mugged and not want to get involved because of what could happen to you. I would certainly risk my life to help my fellow man. Would you feel differently if this was happening to a US sub? And it was your family member down there? They may not want the help because the US has screwed them before, we don't know that. Even if the US did help and they got shit on later at least they would know that they did the right thing and that is what matters in the end.

Bonnie

 

[Wizard]

Did you loose any friends in the gulf war?.....we didn't need to be there ...and I do care I was and paided EMT for about 10 years and if I didn't have health problems I would still do it......I was with the ambulance when we responded to a cardiac arrest and had to defib the pt. ....( he lived and that was great) next thing ya know he was trying to sue the guy that did it and the ambulance service for the brun mark on his chest...hell he would have been dead if thast wasn't done....

In the past gun threads, I said that I carry a gun and have been in bars when guns came out, and I would have been legal to"shot to kill" I chose not to get into it....it had noting to do with me and I didn't want to get arrested myself and go thru the shit for fireing a gun or killing someone.....

All kinds of folks in the world.....thats just who I am ...If it was the US then we hopefully would be there...I did say I feel bad, but there have been so many times our boys and now girls lives have been lost when they didn't need to be there anyhow....

The troop that got hit with that scud missel was from Greensburg Pa. thats about 10 min. from here I knew many....and stick to what I say.....30 some lives lost for no reson....I respect your thinking but have my resons also..***** can make you wise...if you learn.....

[Edited by Wizard on 08-16-2000 at 05:21 PM]

 

[Bonnie Wee Lassie]

But the question Wizard is the guy you helped in the ambulance,if knowing what you know about him today and you could go back would you have let him die or would you still have helped him?

 

[Aranian]

I don't understand, Wizard. Are you speaking of a situation where the US attempts to intervene in the rescue mission without permission of Russian authorities, or are you implying that the US should not lend aid even if requested?

Gulf War analogies aside, I think you are over estimating the risks that the rescue crews are taking.

 

[Wizard]

Well bonnie , I don't do it anymore........I got tired of silly thing and things like that...I work alot of hours and saw alot of shit....This is sad but true...I would go to a house because "Dad " had chest pain....ya get there and there is "Dad" in a chair and he don't want to got to the hospital....so we would have him sign off on our trip sheet ( releasing us of any legal problems) and return to the base only to be called back out at 3 am because now the hard ass wants to go to the hospital......the senior ct. high rise centers were good too..Gram who has no family would call for no reson other than they were lonely...It is a shame but I could miss a needey call like a car wreck will I 'm taking "gram" to the hospital that we all know on a first name...and the hospital know them to...ya see them every week or maybe more....these thing can make you "mean"

at one time I would stop at every car wreck and offer to help...Not anymore....folks are so quick to sue anymore thats just how it is....You know if you stop in New York city a lawyer is right there chasing the car wreck and handing a card out saying "We can sue them for this"....

They aren't getting me ...there are times I have Still done it but you can count on one hand how many times it has been in the past 5 years.....

I do understand RESCUE......I can recall for sure or even spell it and we all know what my spelling is like but what about Bosina where our chopper pilots went down and many died...wasn't thats a "" Rescue?

I see many of you guys think it is worth lossing lives on our end and thats cool if thats what you belive....

Funny Guy.....good thread........

[Edited by Wizard on 08-16-2000 at 03:14 PM]

 

[funny_guy]

I don't know, maybe because I'm probably on the young side of you guys, maybe because I'm going to Ukriane in a week, maybe because I'm sick of all the movies with Russians as bad guys, but I don't care that those people in the sub are "the dreaded Ruskies." They're still people, and every reasonable effort should be made to rescue them. As long as it doesn't endanger a lot more people. Don't get me wrong, I'm still nationalistic (Yay, go USA) but I think that the world is getting smaller, and we all need to work together. We shall see what happens...

ps, I may not be praying, but I'm doing my equivelant.
pps, thanks for the compliment. I agree about the thread. You have some very good points as well, Wiz.

 

[Bonnie Wee Lassie]

Wizard you say in your post and I quote "I see many of you guys think it is worth lossing lives on our end and thats cool if thats what you belive....". I am not saying anyone is going to lose thier life by helping our fellow man. That may happen but that may not. But I would rather die know I tried to save my fellow mans life then sitting on my ass doing nothing at all. When I see an accident I always pull over and see if I can be of any help because I would want the same done for me.

I am so sick of people sitting back and saying well it has nothing to do with me so why should I care. Well I hope that if you are ever in need of your fellow man's help I hope the person who can help you doesn't have the same attitude you do.

 

[Skibum]

One of the reasons that the Russians do not want American help with the rescue may be due to their possible belief that an American sub could have been in a collision with the "Kursk". There were American subs in the area, and there was a near collision between submerged subs as recently as 8 years ago. It was a big embarassment to Clinton that he had to appologize to Yeltsin the last time.

I do not think that there was a collision with one of our boats in this case, but there is still a lot of suspicion and mistrust.

And even thought the Russians have finally asked for British and Norwiegian help, the British minisub can not arrive before Saturday, and by then it will be too late for the Russian crew.

 

[Bushido71XS]

My spout of info

Yes, all Submarine hatches are different. but most Nato and Seato DSRV's have a universal docking collar which adjusts to the individual hatch size.


EXP, the Germans did have a pod type vehicle in use inthe early 90's -late 80's but it could only be used on les than 100 feet of water, because it did not have a decompression system. The bends are a bitch.


I think the news said today that the big worry right now is whether or not the reactor will be stable or go critical after the evac.

 

[Wizard]

Your a good person Bonnie, thats all I can say.....