Rumsfeld's Geneva Convention Hypocrisy

Thrillhouse

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Considering how US foreign policy has such a long history of being hypocrisy-based, this really isn't very surprising.

This is just about half the article.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/comment/story/0,3604,921192,00.html

One rule for them

Five PoWs are mistreated in Iraq and the US cries foul. What about Guantanamo Bay?

George Monbiot
Tuesday March 25, 2003
The Guardian

Suddenly, the government of the United States has discovered the virtues of international law. It may be waging an illegal war against a sovereign state; it may be seeking to destroy every treaty which impedes its attempts to run the world, but when five of its captured soldiers were paraded in front of the Iraqi television cameras on Sunday, Donald Rumsfeld, the US defence secretary, immediately complained that "it is against the Geneva convention to show photographs of prisoners of war in a manner that is humiliating for them".
He is, of course, quite right. Article 13 of the third convention, concerning the treatment of prisoners, insists that they "must at all times be protected... against insults and public curiosity". This may number among the less heinous of the possible infringements of the laws of war, but the conventions, ratified by Iraq in 1956, are non-negotiable. If you break them, you should expect to be prosecuted for war crimes.

This being so, Rumsfeld had better watch his back. For this enthusiastic convert to the cause of legal warfare is, as head of the defence department, responsible for a series of crimes sufficient, were he ever to be tried, to put him away for the rest of his natural life.

His prison camp in Guantanamo Bay, in Cuba, where 641 men (nine of whom are British citizens) are held, breaches no fewer than 15 articles of the third convention. The US government broke the first of these (article 13) as soon as the prisoners arrived, by displaying them, just as the Iraqis have done, on television. In this case, however, they were not encouraged to address the cameras. They were kneeling on the ground, hands tied behind their backs, wearing blacked-out goggles and earphones. In breach of article 18, they had been stripped of their own clothes and deprived of their possessions. They were then interned in a penitentiary (against article 22), where they were denied proper mess facilities (26), canteens (28), religious premises (34), opportunities for physical exercise (38), access to the text of the convention (41), freedom to write to their families (70 and 71) and parcels of food and books (72).

They were not "released and repatriated without delay after the cessation of active hostilities" (118), because, the US authorities say, their interrogation might, one day, reveal interesting information about al-Qaida. Article 17 rules that captives are obliged to give only their name, rank, number and date of birth. No "coercion may be inflicted on prisoners of war to secure from them information of any kind whatever". In the hope of breaking them, however, the authorities have confined them to solitary cells and subjected them to what is now known as "torture lite": sleep deprivation and constant exposure to bright light. Unsurprisingly, several of the prisoners have sought to kill themselves, by smashing their heads against the walls or trying to slash their wrists with plastic cutlery.

The US government claims that these men are not subject to the Geneva conventions, as they are not "prisoners of war", but "unlawful combatants". The same claim could be made, with rather more justice, by the Iraqis holding the US soldiers who illegally invaded their country. But this redefinition is itself a breach of article 4 of the third convention, under which people detained as suspected members of a militia (the Taliban) or a volunteer corps (al-Qaida) must be regarded as prisoners of war.

Even if there is doubt about how such people should be classified, article 5 insists that they "shall enjoy the protection of the present convention until such time as their status has been determined by a competent tribunal". But when, earlier this month, lawyers representing 16 of them demanded a court hearing, the US court of appeals ruled that as Guantanamo Bay is not sovereign US territory, the men have no constitutional rights. Many of these prisoners appear to have been working in Afghanistan as teachers, engineers or aid workers. If the US government either tried or released them, its embarrassing lack of evidence would be brought to light.
 
Ignoring international law one moment and embracing it the next is just one reason that makes America such an untrustworthy friend to have around.

I think war crimes charges should be levelled at Rumsfeld. That way we might just stop this nasty little habit America has of riding roughshod over everything it doesn't agree with...

ppman
 
I'm sorry, but doesn't the Geneva convention only apply to a country's legitimate army?

I didn't realize that terrorist groups were now considered a recognized army.
 
zipman7 said:
I'm sorry, but doesn't the Geneva convention only apply to a country's legitimate army?

I didn't realize that terrorist groups were now considered a recognized army.

We declared war on them anyways.
 
zipman7 said:
I'm sorry, but doesn't the Geneva convention only apply to a country's legitimate army?

I didn't realize that terrorist groups were now considered a recognized army.

Someone needs to bone up on their reading comprehension skills.
To repeat:

The US government claims that these men are not subject to the Geneva conventions, as they are not "prisoners of war", but "unlawful combatants". The same claim could be made, with rather more justice, by the Iraqis holding the US soldiers who illegally invaded their country. But this redefinition is itself a breach of article 4 of the third convention, under which people detained as suspected members of a militia (the Taliban) or a volunteer corps (al-Qaida) must be regarded as prisoners of war.

Even if there is doubt about how such people should be classified, article 5 insists that they "shall enjoy the protection of the present convention until such time as their status has been determined by a competent tribunal".
 
zipman7 said:
I'm sorry, but doesn't the Geneva convention only apply to a country's legitimate army?

I didn't realize that terrorist groups were now considered a recognized army.

Read it and find out...

The crucial words in Article 5 are that until their status is defined all prisoners should be treated as prisoners of war...

And how is the status defined? By military tribunal, which America never did want, and never has held.

Ergo: Rumsfeld should stop treating everyone like teenage jerks who know nothing of the ways of the world...

He just makes a fool of himself...

:)

ppman
 
Thrillhouse said:
Someone needs to bone up on their reading comprehension skills.
To repeat:

The US government claims that these men are not subject to the Geneva conventions, as they are not "prisoners of war", but "unlawful combatants". The same claim could be made, with rather more justice, by the Iraqis holding the US soldiers who illegally invaded their country.

They didn't ILEGALLY invade Iraq.

Someone needs to bone up on their reading comprehension skills.:rolleyes:
 
p_p_man said:
Read it and find out...

The crucial words in Article 5 are that until their status is defined all prisoners should be treated as prisoners of war...

And how is the status defined? By military tribunal, which America never did want, and never has held.

Ergo: Rumsfeld should stop treating everyone like teenage jerks who know nothing of the ways of the world...

He just makes a fool of himself...

:)

ppman

Smile! The pubs will be open in a few hours! :D
 
apples and oranges ...

of course shallow minds can't understand ... especailly drunk ones ...
 
The Rooster said:
apples and oranges ...


That's right, because WERE THE USA!!!!!!!!111 AND WE CAN DO WHATEVRE WE WANT CUZ WERE THE BESTEST COUNTRY AROUND!!!11
 
Thrillhouse said:
That's right, because WERE THE USA!!!!!!!!111 AND WE CAN DO WHATEVRE WE WANT CUZ WERE THE BESTEST COUNTRY AROUND!!!11
Wow .. I believe he's getting it.

Though .. I think your just confussed ... lie down for awhile .. think on it. Terrorist are not military .. therefore unlawful
 
The Rooster said:
Wow .. I believe he's getting it.

Though .. I think your just confussed ... lie down for awhile .. think on it. Terrorist are not military .. therefore unlawful

Jesus Jumping Christ on a pogo stick! Can't anybody fucking read? Here it is, third time, in boldface so there's no confusion:



The US government claims that these men are not subject to the Geneva conventions, as they are not "prisoners of war", but "unlawful combatants". The same claim could be made, with rather more justice, by the Iraqis holding the US soldiers who illegally invaded their country. But this redefinition is itself a breach of article 4 of the third convention, under which people detained as suspected members of a militia (the Taliban) or a volunteer corps (al-Qaida) must be regarded as prisoners of war.

Even if there is doubt about how such people should be classified, article 5 insists that they "shall enjoy the protection of the present convention until such time as their status has been determined by a competent tribunal".


It doesn't matter if they are regular army, terrorists, or fucking angry duck hunters with shotguns! They are regarded as prisoners of war.
 
The Geneva Convention should be tossed into the garbage as a worthless document. Trying to run the higher morale ground against enemies that have never even heard of the thing isn't the best tactic.
 
Thrillhouse said:
Jesus Jumping Christ on a pogo stick! Can't anybody fucking read? Here it is, third time, in boldface so there's no confusion:



The US government claims that these men are not subject to the Geneva conventions, as they are not "prisoners of war", but "unlawful combatants". The same claim could be made, with rather more justice, by the Iraqis holding the US soldiers who illegally invaded their country. But this redefinition is itself a breach of article 4 of the third convention, under which people detained as suspected members of a militia (the Taliban) or a volunteer corps (al-Qaida) must be regarded as prisoners of war.

Even if there is doubt about how such people should be classified, article 5 insists that they "shall enjoy the protection of the present convention until such time as their status has been determined by a competent tribunal".


It doesn't matter if they are regular army, terrorists, or fucking angry duck hunters with shotguns! They are regarded as prisoners of war.

heheheh . . . great post, Thrillhouse . . . these AmeriKKKans have trouble when history gets in the way, so they ignore it until it is convenient to use it for their own advantage . . .

There are two aussies locked up in Guantanemo Bay . . . beyond the power of AmeriKKKan law.

But then, why should we worry. Since the misnamed Patriot Act and Home Defense Act, ALL American citizens could wind up in Guantanemo Bay if some half-witted CIA/FBI/security services person took a dislike to the way they parked their car in the street . . . pity, America used to lead the world . . . then Dubyah Shrub was appointed . . . :)

Meanwhile, back at the war.

Oz radio has just announced that Donnie Rumsfeld had overruled his military advisers SIX times during the planning stages of the U$-Iraq Imperialist War of Conquest to Control Undeveloped Middle East Oil Reserves, and insisted that the military advisers could complete the invasion with 30,000 less troops that they requested. Now there are 100,000 reinforcements being sent . . . ho hum . . . does this look like Vietnam, or does this look like Vietnam again? :)


Then the sandstorms have created havoc with re-supply of advancing troops. Rations have been reduced to one full meal a day while the forward troops dig in to wait for the Supply Corps to catch up with them. And those nasty Iraqis just keep running guerilla hit & run contacts . . . and suicide bombers . . . now weren't those the tactics of the early 60s in Vietnam under Ky, the CIA "bulwark against the Communists" domino-ing down through Asia. :)
 
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Yes, we should approach those that want nothing more than to kill on a large scale with compassion. We should put Shirley MacLaine in charge of US Foreign Policy.

"Melt their weapons, melt their hearts, melt their anger with love." -- Shirley MacLaine on her anti-terrorism policy
 
I just want someone to explain the difference to me between a legal war and an illegal war.

How do you legitimize warfare? Generally, whether right or wrong, these things are defined after the war is over, by those who won.



(By the way, Thrillhouse, just because somebody writes an article in an English newspaper doesn't make it God's Truth, no matter how many times you shout it out. Now don't get me wrong. I happen to agree with you on the POW issue, but for God's sake, you're quoting a newspaper like a Baptist preacher thumps his bible.)
 
Gunner Dailey said:
The Geneva Convention should be tossed into the garbage as a worthless document. Trying to run the higher morale ground against enemies that have never even heard of the thing isn't the best tactic.

We're not trying to follow the Convention for the sake of the Iraqis, Gunner. Some of us would like to have a semblance of civil discourse with the rest of the world once this is over.
 
sigh said:

(By the way, Thrillhouse, just because somebody writes an article in an English newspaper doesn't make it God's Truth, no matter how many times you shout it out. Now don't get me wrong. I happen to agree with you on the POW issue, but for God's sake, you're quoting a newspaper like a Baptist preacher thumps his bible.)

The only part I'm taking to be "God's Truth," as it were, is the actual quotations from the Geneva Convention. If you dislike the English newspaper, here it is straight from the horse's mouth.

http://www.icrc.org/ihl.nsf/7c4d08d...6fef854a3517b75ac125641e004a9e68?OpenDocument
 
sigh said:
We're not trying to follow the Convention for the sake of the Iraqis, Gunner. Some of us would like to have a semblance of civil discourse with the rest of the world once this is over.

I'm aware of that Sigh thanks.
 
sigh said:
I just want someone to explain the difference to me between a legal war and an illegal war.

How do you legitimize warfare? Generally, whether right or wrong, these things are defined after the war is over, by those who won.



(By the way, Thrillhouse, just because somebody writes an article in an English newspaper doesn't make it God's Truth, no matter how many times you shout it out. Now don't get me wrong. I happen to agree with you on the POW issue, but for God's sake, you're quoting a newspaper like a Baptist preacher thumps his bible.)

The point of law is to treat everyone the same, whether they're rich or poor, powerful or powerless.

The development of the laws of war, of the Geneva Convention, and of the United Nations have been generations in the making.

The Bush Administration is systematically sabotaging that progress, because it doesn't think those laws are in its short-term interests.

What Thrillhouse is doing is trying to make the point that simply calling POWs "terrorists" or "unlawful combatants" does not allow put them outside the Geneva Convention, or allow the Bush Administration to mistreat them.
 
Sandia said:
The point of law is to treat everyone the same, whether they're rich or poor, powerful or powerless.

The development of the laws of war, of the Geneva Convention, and of the United Nations have been generations in the making.

The Bush Administration is systematically sabotaging that progress, because it doesn't think those laws are in its short-term interests.

What Thrillhouse is doing is trying to make the point that simply calling POWs "terrorists" or "unlawful combatants" does not allow put them outside the Geneva Convention, or allow the Bush Administration to mistreat them.

Thank you, Sandia. Now I can stop pulling my hair out.
 
Sandia said:
The point of law is to treat everyone the same, whether they're rich or poor, powerful or powerless.

The development of the laws of war, of the Geneva Convention, and of the United Nations have been generations in the making.

The Bush Administration is systematically sabotaging that progress, because it doesn't think those laws are in its short-term interests.

What Thrillhouse is doing is trying to make the point that simply calling POWs "terrorists" or "unlawful combatants" does not allow put them outside the Geneva Convention, or allow the Bush Administration to mistreat them.


The United Nations does not write the laws. Why would you put so much faith in such an inept organization...? Were you protesting Bosnia and Kosovo when Clinton went in without the support of the UN Security Council...?
 
Don K Dyck said:
Oz radio has just announced that Donnie Rumsfeld had overruled his military advisers SIX times during the planning stages of the U$-Iraq Imperialist War of Conquest to Control Undeveloped Middle East Oil Reserves, and insisted that the military advisers could complete the invasion with 30,000 less troops that they requested. Now there are 100,000 reinforcements being sent . . . ho hum . . . does this look like Vietnam, or does this look like Vietnam again? :)


Then the sandstorms have created havoc with re-supply of advancing troops. Rations have been reduced to one full meal a day while the forward troops dig in to wait for the Supply Corps to catch up with them. And those nasty Iraqis just keep running guerilla hit & run contacts . . . and suicide bombers . . . now weren't those the tactics of the early 60s in Vietnam under Ky, the CIA "bulwark against the Communists" domino-ing down through Asia. :)

Really, Don? Let's talk again in a few months, shall we? I don't like the way we entered this war, and I don't care for the way this administration plays the POW game, but I've no doubt how the war will end. Vietnam was a war lost at home. This time, there's little dissent in the home camp.

Do you remember history yourself? Suicide bombers sound an awful lot like the Kamikazi of WWII. They were a desperate ploy at the end of a losing cause. It's tough to win a war when you're encouraging your most fanatical followers to kill themselves.

By the way, why do you insist on shitting only on Americans? The Brits are standing with us shoulder to shoulder and your boys are only a couple of steps behind. Do you truly believe that everyone in America loves what is happening any more than folks in your country?

Talk about arrogance.
 
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