Roman Incest?

[SEVERUSMAX]

Reading Colleen McCullough's Caesar's Women novel gave me an idea for a story...though I don't have time for it myself...perhaps someone else would like to tackle it...also inspired by the Grace of Juno SRP (with Lady Mornington, Honey B, and Steiner). And by "I, Claudius" by Sir Robert Graves and the movie Caligula. And the Rome series. Might have time for it later. We'll see....

One of three themes:

1. Caligula with his sister Drusilla. Older and redundant, but still hot.
2. Octavian with his sister Octavia, after she is divorced by Mark Antony....he, uh, "comforts" her.
3. Publius Clodius and his sisters, Claudia, Clodia, and Clodilla....when they're older. Less well-known, but quite the scandal in his day.

 

[Carnevil9]

Very old joke alert.

I see something along the lines of "Glad he ate her" worked into this story......Carney (as in "gladiator", get it?)

 

[YaoiHuntressE]

A lot of those ancient royal family were breeming with incest. The story itself sounds interesting.

 

[Fantasies_only]

Reading Colleen McCullough's Caesar's Women novel gave me an idea for a story...though I don't have time for it myself...perhaps someone else would like to tackle it...also inspired by the Grace of Juno SRP (with Lady Mornington, Honey B, and Steiner). And by "I, Claudius" by Sir Robert Graves and the movie Caligula. And the Rome series. Might have time for it later. We'll see....

Wait, Honey B is here?

 

[Shendude]

13. Publius Clodius and his sisters, Claudia, Clodia, and Clodilla....when they're older. Less well-known, but quite the scandal in his day.

Err, Clodia and Claudia are the same person.

See, the Claudians were Patricians, but the Clodians were Plebes. By changing from Claudius to Clodius, he could stand for Tribune. And of course, his beloved sis went along with him.

It's amazing what you can learn from SPQR.

 

[SEVERUSMAX]

Err, Clodia and Claudia are the same person.

See, the Claudians were Patricians, but the Clodians were Plebes. By changing from Claudius to Clodius, he could stand for Tribune. And of course, his beloved sis went along with him.

It's amazing what you can learn from SPQR.

Ah, true, but he had 3 sisters. All three were members of the gens Claudia or Clodia. One of them kept the old patrician spelling, Claudia, while the others were known as Clodia and Clodilla, to keep their names distinct. Such things were common enough in families with more than one daughter, since the official names were all the same: that of the gens itself. To have an individual identity, girls had to adopt some unique form or nickname. Boys were luckier, having a praenomen and cognomen, as well as the masculine form of the name. For instance, Caesar was Gaius (praenomen) Julius (nomen or gens name) Caesar (cognomen). His sisters were both named Julia, so each got a nickname. If a family didn't have more than one daughter, then that wasn't an issue.

 

[Shendude]

Ah, true, but he had 3 sisters. All three were members of the gens Claudia or Clodia. One of them kept the old patrician spelling, Claudia, while the others were known as Clodia and Clodilla, to keep their names distinct.

Did not know that. You learn something everyday!

Such things were common enough in families with more than one daughter, sincethe official names were all the same: that of the gens itself. To have an individual identity, girls had to adopt some unique form or nickname. Boys were luckier, having a praenomen and cognomen, as well as the masculine form of the name. For instance, Caesar was Gaius (praenomen) Julius (nomen or gens name) Caesar (cognomen). His sisters were both named Julia, so each got a nickname. If a family didn't have more than one daughter, then that wasn't an issue.

Already knew this.

Mind you, not everyone with three names followed that scheme. Gnaeus Pompeius Maximus (AKA Pompey), f'r example.

 

[SEVERUSMAX]

Did not know that. You learn something everyday!


Already knew this.

Mind you, not everyone with three names followed that scheme. Gnaeus Pompeius Maximus (AKA Pompey), f'r example.

Actually Pompeius "Magnus" (the Great)....he preferred Magnus in his lifetime, but many refused to acknowledge that cognomen. He was the son of Gnaeus Pompeius Strabo, a consular and famous, if unpopular general during the Social or Italian War. Of the gens Pompeia, a powerful and wealthy family of Picentine landholders often accused of being Gallic in origin. His facial features and unconstitutional behavior often seemed to confirm such rumors.

 

[Darkniciad]

I really should have tapped your knowledge before I wrote Ch. 22 of Laresa, Sev. Too late now, it's already in the queue - bugger.

You'll see what I mean when it comes out. I probably could have added a lot of flavor to that story if I'd run it by you first.

 

[snooper]

... It's amazing what you can learn from SPQR.

And there I always thought that the SPQR was the Roman railway (railroad) company!

 

[Shendude]

Actually Pompeius "Magnus" (the Great)....he preferred Magnus in his lifetime, but many refused to acknowledge that cognomen. He was the son of Gnaeus Pompeius Strabo, a consular and famous, if unpopular general during the Social or Italian War. Of the gens Pompeia, a powerful and wealthy family of Picentine landholders often accused of being Gallic in origin. His facial features and unconstitutional behavior often seemed to confirm such rumors.

You sure?

I coulda sworn...

 

[SEVERUSMAX]

You sure?

I coulda sworn...

Maximus: Greatest, as in Jupiter Optimus Maximus (Jupiter Best and Greatest)
Magnus: Great, as in Pompey the Great
Strabo: Cross-eyed

Easy to confuse, I know. Not a big deal.

 

[SEVERUSMAX]

You sure?

I coulda sworn...

Many were offended by his being appointed to special commands despite not being a senator, by his entering the Senate the first time as consul (seriously contrary to the mos maiorum, or unwritten constitution, of Rome), by his raising a private army at 22 to aid Sulla during one of the many civil wars, and by his general disregard to accepted law and custom. His apparent arrogance and/or hubris became less of an issue to the conservative faction once Caesar emerged as a greater threat to their dominance and clout. Pompey then found himself deemed the lesser evil by Cato, Bibulus, Metellus Scipio (soon to become the last of Pompey's several fathers-in-law), Ahenobarbus, and Cicero.

His marriage to Cornelia Metella (actually Caecilia Metella, but her father's blood tie to the gens Cornelia before his adoption by Metellus Pius Pontifex Maximus caused her to acquire the nickname Cornelia Metella) and his sole consulship in 52 BCE (itself unconstitutional, but this time the conservatives winked at it) signaled the beginning of his alliance with the Optimate/boni ("Good Men") faction against Caesar and the end of the First Triumvirate.

The First Triumvirate, which was less official than the Second and simply involved the merging of the factions led by Pompey the Great, Gaius Julius Caesar, and Marcus Licinius Crassus to exert more influence than the Optimates, was due to the previous hostility of the conservatives in the Senate to Pompey's special commands, Crassus's financial influence and activities (deemed unsenatorial by those who believed that senators should avoid commercial dealings and stick to landholding), and Caesar's reformist politics. None of them could get much done by themselves, but joining forces allowed them the clout to pass any laws they wished and elect many of their supporters to high office.

After Crassus died, the Optimates/boni faction began wooing Pompey and trying to create a breach between him and Caesar.

 

[SEVERUSMAX]

I really should have tapped your knowledge before I wrote Ch. 22 of Laresa, Sev. Too late now, it's already in the queue - bugger.

You'll see what I mean when it comes out. I probably could have added a lot of flavor to that story if I'd run it by you first.

Oh, well. That's no big deal. If Rome the TV series and the creators of most Hollywood efforts can get away with it, so can you. Much of the confusion lies in the fact that the late Empire didn't care much about the proper order of familial or gentilicial names (as witnessed by the Constantian dynasty- Constantius Chlorus, Constantine, Constantius II, and Julian "the Apostate"-they often used Flavius, the family name, first in order). Republican Rome, however, was quite specific with these things. By the late Empire, most Roman citizens were not actually Roman and didn't understand the old customs. Constantine, for instance, was Illyrian, not Italian.

Rutilia....now, that is interesting. There was a noble, albeit plebeian, family called the gens Rutilia in the late Republic. Its most prominent figure was Publius Rutilius Rufus, a good friend of Gaius Marius, as well as uncle to the murdered tribune of the Plebs Marcus Livius Drusus and great-uncle to Gaius Julius Caesar. He was consul in the same year as the disastrous Battle of Arausio, though he was not the consul in command (that was the rather incompetent Gnaeus Mallius Maximus, who shared with the proconsul Quintus Servilius Caepio the blame for the near annihiliation of 2 Roman armies by the Germans). He was responsible for urging the Senate to give command to Gaius Marius in the war against the Cimbri and Teutones, though Manius Aquillius suggested the unconstitutional repeated consulships.

Caesar's mother, Aurelia of the Aurelii Cottae, was the daughter of Marcus Aurelius Cotta and a Rutilia- the sister of Publius Rutilius Rufus. Just came to mind with your mention of that name. Looking forward to reading it.

 

[Darkniciad]

Luckily, I gave it a loose timeline -- didn't pin it down to any actual dates. We've also established that while the world is parallel, things don't match up in Laresa's world perfectly with real history, either.

It could have been a much longer story ( I did quite a bit of research when I was considering using Pompeii for a chapter a while back ) but I was pressed for time, so I just cut to the chase *laugh* If I'd had a full normal chapter lapse to write it, I would have built up with a lot more detail.

I may end up using all those jotted down outlines later on, either in a Laresa tale or in my own world ( which has a melded Roman/Greek region ) A fully appointed Roman bath makes for some interesting erotic situations

The idea came from the image I used on the cover ( in the Laresa thread ) and the name popped in there from looking around at meanings of Roman names. It had Rutila's meaning listed as "Red Gold Hair" The pic, and that description, pinned her name down in an instant.

Oh, well. That's no big deal. If Rome the TV series and the creators of most Hollywood efforts can get away with it, so can you. Much of the confusion lies in the fact that the late Empire didn't care much about the proper order of familial or gentilicial names (as witnessed by the Constantian dynasty- Constantius Chlorus, Constantine, Constantius II, and Julian "the Apostate"-they often used Flavius, the family name, first in order). Republican Rome, however, was quite specific with these things. By the late Empire, most Roman citizens were not actually Roman and didn't understand the old customs. Constantine, for instance, was Illyrian, not Italian.

Rutilia....now, that is interesting. There was a noble, albeit plebeian, family called the gens Rutilia in the late Republic. Its most prominent figure was Publius Rutilius Rufus, a good friend of Gaius Marius, as well as uncle to the murdered tribune of the Plebs Marcus Livius Drusus and great-uncle to Gaius Julius Caesar. He was consul in the same year as the disastrous Battle of Arausio, though he was not the consul in command (that was the rather incompetent Gnaeus Mallius Maximus, who shared with the proconsul Quintus Servilius Caepio the blame for the near annihiliation of 2 Roman armies by the Germans). He was responsible for urging the Senate to give command to Gaius Marius in the war against the Cimbri and Teutones, though Manius Aquillius suggested the unconstitutional repeated consulships.

Caesar's mother, Aurelia of the Aurelii Cottae, was the daughter of Marcus Aurelius Cotta and a Rutilia- the sister of Publius Rutilius Rufus. Just came to mind with your mention of that name. Looking forward to reading it.

 

[SEVERUSMAX]

Sounds intriguing.

 

[Shendude]

Wow, SEV, you really know your Rome!

Did you learn this via academia or on your own? If the latter, could you recomend some books?

 

[SEVERUSMAX]

Wow, SEV, you really know your Rome!

Did you learn this via academia or on your own? If the latter, could you recomend some books?

Mostly self-educated. I forgot most of my sources' names, it's been so long ago. However, a shocking amount of non-fictional information can be found in the back of the First Man in Rome historical novel series by Colleen McCullough. The first book, First Man in Rome, contains a list of praenomens, nomens, and cognomens in the back of the novel.

Thanks for the compliment.