reward vs punishment?

[lk70]

I'd like to hear from Dom(me)s and Subs here, or anyone with an opinion actually

I'm curious about the use of discipline/punishment vs the use of reward.

I read a lot about discipline or punishment if a sub does something to displease her/his master but I don't hear much about the opposite. What if the sub does something special for her master? Say, prepares a special dinner for friends, coworkers or family. Does she ever get a reward for something like that? Like maybe a nice dinner out, or maybe a sexual favor she enjoys? Or is she expected to do things like that because the dom demands it?

I know there are many different ways in which people live in BDSM so there may be many different answers. That's good, I'd like to hear them all please!

Why do I ask? No, I'm not writing a paper or anything. I'm trying to define myself as a sub, compare what I want to what I should be able to expect.

Thanks.

 

[Netzach]

I'd like to hear from Dom(me)s and Subs here, or anyone with an opinion actually

I'm curious about the use of discipline/punishment vs the use of reward.

I read a lot about discipline or punishment if a sub does something to displease her/his master but I don't hear much about the opposite. What if the sub does something special for her master? Say, prepares a special dinner for friends, coworkers or family. Does she ever get a reward for something like that? Like maybe a nice dinner out, or maybe a sexual favor she enjoys? Or is she expected to do things like that because the dom demands it?

I know there are many different ways in which people live in BDSM so there may be many different answers. That's good, I'd like to hear them all please!

Why do I ask? No, I'm not writing a paper or anything. I'm trying to define myself as a sub, compare what I want to what I should be able to expect.

Thanks.

I am way way way way more inclined to do positive reinforcement. Sometimes that's just noticing and approving, sometimes it's treating them in some way, sexually, or in mundane ways. I find it much more effective than negative reinforcement. I guess "punishment" just excites people to endless discussion, whereas "here you can veg out and play counterstrike for an hour without me bugging you" is just not that interesting.

 

[doll_parts85]

I get to eat junk food when I'm good

 

[CutieMouse]

Anyone who has dealt with the joys of managing another person in the business world, raising children, or training an animal (no I'm not comparing submissives to children or animals), recognizes the benifits of positive reinforcement, over punishment.

I don't need to be told ____ is a reward for doing ___ , but I better damned well know I am appreciated, cherished, and wanted on a daily basis. Sometimes that could be as easy as a smile, or time to play with my creative outlets, or it could mean silly stupid romantic "vanilla" stuff; other times I might appreciate a nod and gesture that is more "D/s" in flavor.

If I screw something up, I expect it to be discussed like rational adults, along with whatever discipline is deemed appropriate. I also work very hard to screw up as infrequently as possible, because I'm perfectly capable of telling a Lover I'm in the mood for XYZ masochistic thing, if he'd be interested.... LOL

 

[FurryFury]

Anyone who has dealt with the joys of managing another person in the business world, raising children, or training an animal (no I'm not comparing submissives to children or animals), recognizes the benifits of positive reinforcement, over punishment.

I don't need to be told ____ is a reward for doing ___ , but I better damned well know I am appreciated, cherished, and wanted on a daily basis. Sometimes that could be as easy as a smile, or time to play with my creative outlets, or it could mean silly stupid romantic "vanilla" stuff; other times I might appreciate a nod and gesture that is more "D/s" in flavor.

If I screw something up, I expect it to be discussed like rational adults, along with whatever discipline is deemed appropriate. I also work very hard to screw up as infrequently as possible, because I'm perfectly capable of telling a Lover I'm in the mood for XYZ masochistic thing, if he'd be interested.... LOL

As usual, you said it better than I would have.

 

[FurryFury]

I am way way way way more inclined to do positive reinforcement. Sometimes that's just noticing and approving, sometimes it's treating them in some way, sexually, or in mundane ways. I find it much more effective than negative reinforcement. I guess "punishment" just excites people to endless discussion, whereas "here you can veg out and play counterstrike for an hour without me bugging you" is just not that interesting.

*chuckles*

Another great post Netzach.

I'm not a great fan of punishment in general. Correction, yes, education yes, reinforcement, yes and discipline, absolutely, with out that sometimes the edge isn't there for me. I have to have that edge, though.

I never deliberately screw up. I try always to make my best effort. Punishment therefore seems awfully unfair to me but consequences make sense to me. Learning is something that excites me as well.

I don't get into the whole, I've been a bad girl, please punish me thang. It's a game. If folks enjoy it good but I'd rather be spanked because we both enjoy it than because I've been "bad."

 

[myinnerslut]

an example of reward for me.... i didnt get lower then a B+ in any of my classes, so he went doen on me, something i enjoy a lot but he rarely does

another example of a reward is just being told how much he likes what im doing... appreciation is the best

 

[WriterDom]

I believe in positive reinforcement. I'd rather have someone on the same page rather than acting out of fear of a punishment.

 

[BiBunny]

This answer's going to put me out there, but whatever. I'm so low-maintenance, but I respond extremely well to positive reinforcement, even if it's just a "Thank you." Because of some long-standing childhood issues, I do not respond to punishment at all. I am not a child, and I won't stand for being treated like one.

On the other hand, I'm not ever going to turn down a reasonable request made of me. I choose to be in relationships with people whose version of "reasonable" and mine are very similar. I may not want to clean the bathroom, for example, but if I'm asked, I'll do it. These same people are not the types of people who will a.) constantly ask ridiculous things for me in hopes that I'll screw up, and they can "punish" me, or b.) get upset if I honestly try to complete a task and can't (say there's no bathroom cleaner in the bathroom, so I have to go to the store to get more and am, therefore, not quite finished cleaning it when I'm supposed to be).

I don't care how deeply I'm involved in a D/s relationship. I will still be treated with kindness and respect. "Punishment" is a real hang-up with me, having lived with someone most of my life who relied on it exclusively. I'll try my best to do anything I'm asked. If I screw up, talk to me about it. I can assure you I won't do it again. I'm incredibly obedient, for the right person. If you want to beat on me, just say so (or just tie me down and start doing it). I can understand that a whole lot better than I can understand "punishing" a grown woman who has a mind of her own.

If that's what other people do in their relationships, it's fine with me. Please don't think I'm condemning something that works for you. It's just one of the last hang-ups I've got left, having lived with a mother who'd sooner yell about something I didn't do than just ask me nicely to do it before she left. Punishment, in whatever shape or form, will just never be a part of my D/s.

 

[CutieMouse]

This answer's going to put me out there, but whatever. I'm so low-maintenance, but I respond extremely well to positive reinforcement, even if it's just a "Thank you." Because of some long-standing childhood issues, I do not respond to punishment at all. I am not a child, and I won't stand for being treated like one.

On the other hand, I'm not ever going to turn down a reasonable request made of me. I choose to be in relationships with people whose version of "reasonable" and mine are very similar. I may not want to clean the bathroom, for example, but if I'm asked, I'll do it. These same people are not the types of people who will a.) constantly ask ridiculous things for me in hopes that I'll screw up, and they can "punish" me, or b.) get upset if I honestly try to complete a task and can't (say there's no bathroom cleaner in the bathroom, so I have to go to the store to get more and am, therefore, not quite finished cleaning it when I'm supposed to be).

I don't care how deeply I'm involved in a D/s relationship. I will still be treated with kindness and respect. "Punishment" is a real hang-up with me, having lived with someone most of my life who relied on it exclusively. I'll try my best to do anything I'm asked. If I screw up, talk to me about it. I can assure you I won't do it again. I'm incredibly obedient, for the right person. If you want to beat on me, just say so (or just tie me down and start doing it). I can understand that a whole lot better than I can understand "punishing" a grown woman who has a mind of her own.

If that's what other people do in their relationships, it's fine with me. Please don't think I'm condemning something that works for you. It's just one of the last hang-ups I've got left, having lived with a mother who'd sooner yell about something I didn't do than just ask me nicely to do it before she left. Punishment, in whatever shape or form, will just never be a part of my D/s.

You won't get any disagreement from me... If I really screw something up, I do need a Y = Z sort of closure to it, which I define as a discussion/disciplinary action (otherwise I'll beat myself up), but I'm not at all tolerant of people having unrealistic expectations just to create an excuse-for-punishment dynamic. I had enough of that growing with a bi-polar parent, thanks. LOL

 

[lk70]

You know, I'm finding the responses here far more attractive to me than the ones I'm getting on collarme (with the exception being those of you who replied in both places.)

Just an observation and hijack of my own thread.

 

[CutieMouse]

You know, I'm finding the responses here far more attractive to me than the ones I'm getting on collarme (with the exception being those of you who replied in both places.)

Just an observation and hijack of my own thread.

I was wondering about that... LOL

 

[BiBunny]

I'm not at all tolerant of people having unrealistic expectations just to create an excuse-for-punishment dynamic. I had enough of that growing with a bi-polar parent, thanks. LOL

Thank God somebody understands. It's not that I want my way so badly that I refuse to accept punishment. It's just that even the thought of it makes me defensive. Just ain't gonna happen.

 

[CutieMouse]

Thank God somebody understands. It's not that I want my way so badly that I refuse to accept punishment. It's just that even the thought of it makes me defensive. Just ain't gonna happen.

Yup- favorite example of that from childhood... being screamed at and told I personally, single-handedly ruined the entire family vacation to the beach (taken the previous week), because at age SEVEN, I forgot to put the liner in the wastebasket in my bathroom (which I cleaned all by myself, as it was one of my jobs), before leaving for said vacation. That fucking trash can liner negated a week's worth of fun, memories, dinners out, etc, and earned me 2 solid hours of screaming... no thanks.

Guess who refuses to get involved with bi-polar/BPD people? LOL

(No offense to those who manage the diseases responsibly...)

 

[BiBunny]

Yup- favorite example of that from childhood... being screamed at and told I personally, single-handedly ruined the entire family vacation to the beach (taken the previous week), because at age SEVEN, I forgot to put the liner in the wastebasket in my bathroom (which I cleaned all by myself, as it was one of my jobs), before leaving for said vacation. That fucking trash can liner negated a week's worth of fun, memories, dinners out, etc, and earned me 2 solid hours of screaming... no thanks.

Guess who refuses to get involved with bi-polar/BPD people? LOL

(No offense to those who manage the diseases responsibly...)

Oh, yes, I remember similar things. I loved being yelled at for not doing things I should've known to do, even though she didn't even bother asking me to do them. I was a sort of clumsy child (who am I kidding--I'm a clumsy adult, too), and I heard "You're the reason we can't have nice things" pretty often, too.

/minor hijack Sorry!

 

[ecstaticsub]

There is no better reward than being told that he appreciates me and values me. Except his actions which show that he is proud of me. Acknowledging good behavior will bring out more good behavior from me. Screaming at me will just make me irrritable.

The punishments he uses are more taking away priviliges--like being on message boards--but that is more because he wants me to use my time doing something else or I didn't get a task done because I was spending too much time on-line. Punishments fit the occasion--not just punishments but a way to help me do what I should have done to know better next time.

 

[the captians wench]

There are things that Jounar likes to watch me do that are really hard for me to do (hard emotionally). So when I do these things he does a few things to "reward" me. First off he praises me, tells me how proud he is of me, and how he knows that this act is hard for me so he apreciates my efforts all that much more. Then he usually lets me cum while he watches, which the exibitionist in me absolutely adores. And some times he'll even give me some orgasm passes (we practice orgasm restriction, so I'm not allowd to cum with out his expressed concent). Jounar has punished me before, but only for really big things, or for correcting habbits that I asked him to help me with.

My playmate is a little less forgiving. I'm an attention whore, and he gives me a special kind of attention, so when he's not happy with me, he'll ignore me completely. ( I'm starting to wonder the effects of this but I'm also nervous about telling him that because I know he'll just go longer with out contact with me and that would drive me mental). He does punish me for things, but his way of punishing me is not letting me have the things I enjoy, ie his attention or pain or something like that.

But he also rewards me. Again he will praise me, but only when he feels I've truely earned it. He has beaten me infront of his friends (again exibitionist apeal), I also mentioned to a girl we've played with the thing I feel like has been my greatest reward from him. He doesn't cum from blow jobs, not that he can't, he just doesn't want to, so he doesn't (tho I suspect I've gotten him pretty damn close to loosing that control a couple of times. ). Most of the time he'll jack himself finished and let me swallow my reward for a day well done, but one time he let me jack him to completion. He came by my hand, and that (as I'm sure he knew) ment so much more to me than anything he could have done. (also made her just a tad jealous *giggles*)

These are the only two people I know who have proclaimed rewards to me. I know when I'm being rewarded by one of them. Others I have played with in the past have just expected my top performance all the time and my reward was that I got to continue to play with them. If I did not perform to their standards, I got cornor time or isolation (again working with my attention whoreness)

between the two types, I think I respond better when I know they are happy with me and I am praised and know I am apriciated and loved where case may be.

on a side note, my play mate did try to do the whole fear of punishment thing on me. The results were I made myself very sick every time I failed at something. He set very hard tasks, and I was not completing them. I was so fearful of his punishment that I would worry myself into a sugar fit and once even had to make a trip to er because of it. After the er trip he started more on the praise and reward track, not to say I don't still face punishment for failure, but now I don't fear it and worry myself sick.

 

[Netzach]

This answer's going to put me out there, but whatever. I'm so low-maintenance, but I respond extremely well to positive reinforcement, even if it's just a "Thank you." Because of some long-standing childhood issues, I do not respond to punishment at all. I am not a child, and I won't stand for being treated like one.

On the other hand, I'm not ever going to turn down a reasonable request made of me. I choose to be in relationships with people whose version of "reasonable" and mine are very similar. I may not want to clean the bathroom, for example, but if I'm asked, I'll do it. These same people are not the types of people who will a.) constantly ask ridiculous things for me in hopes that I'll screw up, and they can "punish" me, or b.) get upset if I honestly try to complete a task and can't (say there's no bathroom cleaner in the bathroom, so I have to go to the store to get more and am, therefore, not quite finished cleaning it when I'm supposed to be).

I don't care how deeply I'm involved in a D/s relationship. I will still be treated with kindness and respect. "Punishment" is a real hang-up with me, having lived with someone most of my life who relied on it exclusively. I'll try my best to do anything I'm asked. If I screw up, talk to me about it. I can assure you I won't do it again. I'm incredibly obedient, for the right person. If you want to beat on me, just say so (or just tie me down and start doing it). I can understand that a whole lot better than I can understand "punishing" a grown woman who has a mind of her own.

If that's what other people do in their relationships, it's fine with me. Please don't think I'm condemning something that works for you. It's just one of the last hang-ups I've got left, having lived with a mother who'd sooner yell about something I didn't do than just ask me nicely to do it before she left. Punishment, in whatever shape or form, will just never be a part of my D/s.

I'm completely on the same page here. It shut me off faster than anything you can dream up as a bottom. Want to see me walk out a door in ten seconds? If you want to interact with me as a puppy please give me the courtesy of knee pads and a water dish.

 

[BiBunny]

There is no better reward than being told that he appreciates me and values me. Except his actions which show that he is proud of me. Acknowledging good behavior will bring out more good behavior from me. Screaming at me will just make me irrritable.

The punishments he uses are more taking away priviliges--like being on message boards--but that is more because he wants me to use my time doing something else or I didn't get a task done because I was spending too much time on-line. Punishments fit the occasion--not just punishments but a way to help me do what I should have done to know better next time.

Taking away privileges really falls under the penalty category, rather than the punishment category, according to all my undergrad psych classes. Penalties are either removing a reinforcing stimulus (e.g., message boards for you, or traffic fines or whatever) or removing a person from a place that reinforces them (timeouts). I could conceivably deal with penalties better than punishments, though I wouldn't choose to be with someone who used either.

FWIW, punishment's not negative reinforcement, either, though people tend to use the terms interchangably.

Sorry. I'm just a geek and had to point that out.

 

[ecstaticsub]

Taking away privileges really falls under the penalty category, rather than the punishment category, according to all my undergrad psych classes. Penalties are either removing a reinforcing stimulus (e.g., message boards for you, or traffic fines or whatever) or removing a person from a place that reinforces them (timeouts). I could conceivably deal with penalties better than punishments, though I wouldn't choose to be with someone who used either.

FWIW, punishment's not negative reinforcement, either, though people tend to use the terms interchangably.

Sorry. I'm just a geek and had to point that out.

So what is your official definition of a punishment?

 

[lk70]

FWIW, punishment's not negative reinforcement, either, though people tend to use the terms interchangably.

Sorry. I'm just a geek and had to point that out.

Actually I appreciate this because I wasn't differentiating in my mind between discipline/punishment/penalty or negative reinforcement.

It seems that they do have very different meanings to some of you though.

 

[Blushing Bottom]

Negative Reinforcement

Reward generated by the removal of painful or stressful conditions or events.

Example: My walk to school is now pleasant now that I have taken a different route so as to avoid the pervert on the next block over.


Example: Driving in heavy traffic is a negative condition for most of us. You leave home earlier than usual one morning, and don't run into heavy traffic. You leave home earlier again the next morning and again you avoid heavy traffic. Your behavior of leaving home earlier is strengthened by the consequence of the avoidance of heavy traffic.


Punishment

Punishment is the practice of imposing something unpleasant or aversive on a person or animal in response to an unwanted, disobedient or morally wrong behavior.

Example: Spanking a naughty child for rude and disrespectful behaviors.

Example: Not spanking a pain loving submissive for rude and disrespectful behaviors.

They appear close to the untrained thinker but the actual differences are huge.

 

[BiBunny]

So what is your official definition of a punishment?

Straight out of the incredibly overpriced behavior modification textbook from my senior year as a psych major (with my less convoluted explanations in regular text):

"A positive reinforcer is an event that, when presented immediately following a behavior, causes the behavior to increase in frequency (or likelihood of occurrence). The term positive reinforcer is roughly synonymous with the word reward."

The definition without all the technical bs: "A positive reinforcer/reward is something that the person likes. Giving this reward after the person does something desirable will make that person more likely to do that something desirable again."

"A punisher is an event that, when presented immediately following a behavior, causes the behavior to decrease in frequency."

I say: "A punisher is exactly what it sounds like. It's unpleasant, so we hope to avoid it."

"In conjunction with the concept of positive reinforcer, the principle called positive reinforcement states that if, in a given situation, somebody does something that is followed immediately by a positive reinforcer, then that person is more likely to do the same thing again when he or she next encounters a similar situation."

I say: "This is actually a form of circular reasoning, but whatever. Positive reinforcement means giving a reward to someone after that person does something you like in hopes of teaching them to do that same thing again."

"Escape conditioning (or negative reinforcement) is similar to aversive punishment in that both involve the use of an aversive stimulus (or punisher). Procedurally, however, escape conditioning/negative reinforcement and punishment differ interms of both the antecedents and the consequences of behavior. With regards to antecedents, in escape conditioning (negative reinforcement), the aversive stimulus must be present prior to a response, whereas the aversive stimulus is not present prior to a response that is punished. With regard to consequences, in escape conditioning (negative reinforcement) the aversive event is removed immediately following a response, whereas in punishment the aversive stimulus (or punisher) is presented immediately following a response."

I say: "In negative reinforcement (escape conditioning), a dominant would whip you until you finished a task. Your 'reward' when you completed it would be that the whipping stopped. In punishment, you'd be whipped if you didn't complete the task."

"The principle of avoidance conditioning states that a behavior will increase in frequency if it prevents an aversive stimulus from occurring."

I say: "Avoidance conditioning would be where the submissive knows the dominant will beat them if they don't do what they're supposed to do. The sub will do the task(s) to avoid being whipped."

"Penalties consist of timeout and response cost. Timeout involves transferring an individual from a more reinforcing to a less reinforcing situation following a particular behavior. Response cost involves the removal of a specified amount of reinforcer following a particular behavior."

I say: "Penalties would be something like a dominant putting a submissive in the corner for a misbehavior (timeout) or taking away internet privileges for a set amount of time (response cost)."

"Punishment consists of physical (aversive) punishers and reprimands. Physical (aversive) punishers include such things as spankings, pinches, electric shock, ammonia vapor, cool baths, loud or harsh sounds, prolonged tickling, and hair tugging. Such stimuli or events are called unconditioned punishers (that is, stimuli that are punishing without any prior training or conditioning). Reprimands are strong negative verbal stimuli contingent on behavior. They also usually include a fixed stare and, sometimes, a firm grasp. They are usually conditioned punishers."

I say: "Punishment can be physical or verbal. A physical punishment would be a caning, and a verbal one would be a stern talking-to. The difference between penalty and punishment is that penalties are something taken away, while punishments are something given."


I'm sorry I'm such a dork, but I had to specify. It was driving me nuts.

All of the above parts in italics were taken from Behavior Modification: What It Is and How to Do It, Seventh Edition, by Garry Martin and Joseph Pear.

ETA: I see BB beat me to it. Thanks for the better (and shorter!) explanation.

 

[Lilith]

I teach in an Applied Behavioristic environment and was just sitting on my hands. Thank you ladies!

 

[BiBunny]

I teach in an Applied Behavioristic environment and was just sitting on my hands. Thank you ladies!

You're welcome! Glad I'm not the only one who notices those things.

By the way, I forgot one in my long tirade up there.

"The principle of extinction states that if, in a given situation, an individual emits a previously reinforced response and that response is not followed by a reinforcing consequence, then that person is less likely to do the same thing again when he or she next encounters a similar situation. Stated differently, if a response has been increased in frequency through positive reinforcement, then completely ceasing to reinforce the response will cause it to decrease in frequency."

I say: "Ignoring some behaviors, particularly attention-seeking ones, will reduce them faster than other things. Ignoring a SAMMY who's being bratty just to get a spanking keeps you from accidentally reinforcing behavior you don't want to continue."

(That passage was taken from the same textbook, and I'm too lazy to cite it all again. Carry on with your thread, and I'll stop adding my technical bullshit to the discussion. )