Restructuring the Hangout: Register your vote!

[KillerMuffin]

For further discussion, go here: https://forum.literotica.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=178455

Chicklet brought up the idea of sub-dividing the Hangout and mostly there were suggested names for the place. This seems to indicate that people want a sub-divided forum. I think that in order to avoid the brouhahas that broke out with the Playground and the BDSM free-for-all, we should make this a vote sort of thing so it's not a two or three people want it and others are afraid to say something.

So, here's a poll. Please take the time to register your vote so you have room to bitch when the changes are made/not made.

Your choices are as follows (don't worry about which forums to put in here at the moment, that can be decided later, if necessary):


One

The Author's Hangout as it is remains the primary forum. We could change it to "cafe" or whatnot, but it would have to say "Authors" in it. Maybe Author's and Editor's Cafe or something. In this case, the primary forum would be fun and games stuff. Chit chat, whatever.

The following forums could become the more writing oriented subforums of the Hangout, but they don't have to:

Story Feedback forum
Story Discussion Circle
Editor's Forum
a new writing talk only forum

Two

The Author's Hangout would still remain the primary forum, but it would be the serious discussions on writing forum. Chit chat would be placed elsewhere.

The following forums could become subforums, but they don't have to:

Story Feedback Forum
Story Discussion Circle
Editor's Forum
A chit-chat fun forum.

Three

Everything stays as it is.

**********

Note: If the SDC or the Editor's forum become one with the Hangout, my moderatorship just moved in by default.

What do you guys think?

 

[openthighs_sarah]

Ideally, there would have been an "I don't know" option.

I picked option one, which seems to be the ugly step-child among the possibilities. Things should proceed from the general to the specific, and the idea of having a "general chit-chat" sub-forum beneath a craft-specific Author's Hangout distresses me.

*wrings hands in agitation*

Also, I'm terrible with directions. If things get changed around too much, I probably won't be able to find my way in again. So maybe my vote shouldn't count...

 

[Chicklet]

Also, I'm terrible with directions. If things get changed around too much, I probably won't be able to find my way in again.

I promise we'll help you find your way = )

 

[TheEarl]

I like things the way they are. Why do we need to change?

The Earl

 

[snooper]

I think the flaw is in the other boards. The GD board is so big and unweildy now that separate Rant, Joke, Problem, and so forth subdivisions would be useful. Then a posting would stay on the first page for more than an hour.

This might allow rants and jokes, etc to be put on those boards, leaving the Authors Xxxx for writing discussions and the Editors' Xxxx for editing matters, exactly as the EF works now.

Finally, yes, I admit I have misused threads on here in the past.

 

[Lauren Hynde]

I like the way things are, and they appear to be working, but now you got me thinking.

What we have today is:

The Author's Hangout, which should be, unless I and the majority of dictionaries are completely mistaken, a place frequented for entertainment or for socializing with and/or between authors, and which is also quite naturally used for general discussions about writing.

The Editor's Forum, which is a technical forum in nature.

The Story Feedback forum, where people basically ask for and give feedback about specific stories already posted at Literotica.

The Story Discussion Circle forum, where people basically ask for and give guided and oriented feedback about specific stories already posted at Literotica.

The Poetry Feedback & Discussion forum, which is used for general discussion about matters of poetry and where people ask for and give feedback about specific poem already posted at Literotica or not.

The Story Ideas forum, where people share um... story... ideas.


Like I said, I think things are working as they are and there's no real need for change, but if I was in charge, this is what I'd like to have:

Chitchat:
- Authors' Hangout, a lighthearted place for entertainment or for socializing with and/or between authors. Pretty much what we have today. Anything goes;

Writing specific forums:
- Poetry Feedback & Discussion, with general discussion about poetry and where people ask for and give feedback on specific pieces. Pretty much what we have today;

- Story Feedback & Discussion, with general discussion about writing and where people ask for and give feedback on specific pieces. I'm thinking on the lines of a fusion of Story Feedback with the more serious side of today's Author's Hangout. Alternatively, we could have two distinct Story Feedback and On Writing forums;*

------ Story Discussion Circle, in the same moulds has we have today, but as a subforum of Story Feedback; (I really can't understand why this isn't happening already, because it's so evidently the right place for it, not only structurally, but also in terms of visibility)

- Editors' Forum, like what we have today;

- Story Ideas, like what we have today, but more for lack of ideas of where to put it then for real convition that it should stand alone.


There. That's what makes sense, in my opinion.


* edited to add:
Actually, I think it would be better to have the two separate forums: Story Feedback (with Story Discussion Circle subforum) and On Writing (with Editors' Forum and Story Ideas subforums).

The Hangout should be what a hangout is... and independent from any story specific resorces' forum, unless you want to widen the gap between story authors and poetry authors.

 

[Pookie]

I like option two the best. I know there are authors that like coming here just to read the ideas and opinions of other authors as it relates to writing. I also know that friendships can develop which leads to "off-topic" discussions within threads. IMO, option two would give everyone what they want. It would also advertise the other forums much more effectively too.

A few questions though. Would there be a forum moderator for the primary Author's Hangout forum? Also, what about the other subforums that have no mod now?

Thanks for posting the poll, KM.


Pookie

 

[Chicklet]

I feel like the main question, rather than the different answers to the question, is should Serious Chat and Playful Chat between authors be seperated. I think that we *do* need seperate forums for the two, and I don't know which I think the "author's hangout" ought to be. sigh. I just don't want the main question to get lost in so much confusion.

 

[oggbashan]

I like things the way they are. Why do we need to change?

The Earl

I agree. I like it as it is (or was because it has already changed dramatically in recent weeks).

I am not happy with any proposal that means Author's Hangout is moderated by KillerMuffin because she is pressing for change and not for things as they are.

Og

 

[Lauren Hynde]

So the options should simply be:

One - The Author's Hangout is a hangout; let's make a new forum to discuss serious issues on writing.

Two - The Author's Hangout is for serious writing issues; let's make a new forum to just hang out.

Three - Let's keep everything as is.


I think that's the real issue too, Chicklet. I just decided to elaborate a bit on my previous post because I did see some room for improvement, although not directly in the Hangout.

 

[Chicklet]

So the options should simply be:

One - The Author's Hangout is a hangout; let's make a new forum to discuss serious issues on writing.

Two - The Author's Hangout is for serious writing issues; let's make a new forum to just hang out.

Three - Let's keep everything as is.


I think that's the real issue too, Chicklet. I just decided to elaborate a bit on my previous post because I did see some room for improvement, although not directly in the Hangout.

exactly

edited to add that as smart as most of us on lit are, reading the descriptions in the 1st post of this thread is a little overwhelming and might scare people into choosing something they don't understand.

 

[Lauren Hynde]

Exactly. Moreover, one might agree in principle with the basic principle, but not with that whole subforums thing, and the "but they don't have to" clause might not be enough to vote for change.

I think you should keep the options simple and straighforward and start the poll again.

 

[Pookie]

So the options should simply be:

One - The Author's Hangout is a hangout; let's make a new forum to discuss serious issues on writing.

Two - The Author's Hangout is for serious writing issues; let's make a new forum to just hang out.

Three - Let's keep everything as is.


I think that's the real issue too, Chicklet. I just decided to elaborate a bit on my previous post because I did see some room for improvement, although not directly in the Hangout.

So what if the voting were to come out like this:

One - 12
Two - 12
Three - 15

Option three would win and everything would remain the same. However, a clear majority of people voted to have two separate forums - one for "hanging out" and one for "serious writing issues". The majority would lose.

What difference does it make if the "Authors Hangout" is one or the other. It's still pixels on a screen. Does it really matter if one is on top of the other in the listing? They both have a specific purpose no matter what they are called.

 

[KillerMuffin]

I agree. I like it as it is (or was because it has already changed dramatically in recent weeks).

I am not happy with any proposal that means Author's Hangout is moderated by KillerMuffin because she is pressing for change and not for things as they are.

Og

I do wonder why a press for change is a strike against me. I'd really like to hear the logic.

I cannot help but think you're imaging that I'm looking for power here. If I wanted power here, I would have already had it. I have, in fact, had myself removed as moderator on two forums already. If you think I'm after power, you should try asking rather than making an untrue and, frankly, insulting assumption. Don't ask me, either. Ask anyone who has suggested we get a moderator and that mod should be me.

I've been pooh-poohing moderatorships here in the Hangout for a long time. There have been enough people, every once in a while, that have suggested I mod here enough that Laurel would probably have asked if I want the modkeys already if it had been brought to her attention. You'll notice I don't moderate here. You'll notice no one does. I never thought it would be necessary. I still don't think it's necessary.

I'm not pressing to be a mod here, but I do think it's important that people understand that if certain forums are to be sub-forumed, then I would become a moderator here. That's information I thought people would like to know to make an informed decision. It would be completely disengeuous to not do it. It's really saddening that being honest and forthright with people has Og impugning my character. I suppose you'd have preferred that I didn't mention it so if these changes are instituted you'd get a big shock to find the Hangout moderated by me? You do things that way, I prefer honesty.

I'm not pushing for change either. If I had been, guess what, this forum would have already been sub-forumed out. If I had been pushing for change, I would never have started the poll asking for opinions. I would have taken the discussion of what to name the new subforum as proof that the prevailing opinion is to add subforums and you'd come back to a divvied up hangout. I'm for the change, but not at the expense of people who don't want it.

I think it's a good idea because I like to file things and I don't like clutter. The main forum is cluttered and story-specific forums are scattered all over the place. I also don't especially care if it doesn't change because it's not going to change the position the General Board is on in the Jump to Forum menu. I'll have to scroll no matter what.

My thinking is that having the story forums grouped under the "Authors" forum is that it'll make navigation easier for newbies. It's a directory style navigational structure rather than a grocery list style navigational structure. It will prevent the usual new person faux pas.

Oh, yeah, Lauren, I said just that. I suppose I wasn't clear enough in the first post.

 

[openthighs_sarah]

I do wonder why a press for change is a strike against me. I'd really like to hear the logic.

Especially since it was Chicklet's idea in the first place, and since there have been several threads and posts related to the recent deluge of off-topic posts and the fact that this has the effect of possibly discouraging new posters or "regulars" who just aren't into all the chit-chat.

I honestly don't see how the changes that Chicklet or KM suggested could adversely affect anyone on this board. It's an organizational suggestion, nothing more, and the only possible effect (as I see it) would be to bring new people into the forums and to more appropriately direct new posters to the right area.

As for the other question of "Why make a change at all?", I think it was Chicklet who made the comment that you can easily miss the legitimate writing threads when there are so many off-topic and personal threads filling up the first page. Those of us who like the writing threads would prefer to have a simpler way of accessing and responding to them.

I like KM's idea (and Chicklet's original idea) because it appeals to my sense of organization and elegance.

As far as KM pushing to be a moderator, why on earth would she want to? Anyone who is willing to act as a moderator is either doing it as a labor of love, or is a power-mad asshole. She's not an asshole, and she's already juggling enough with the other forums. I can't see how it's a threat, either way. She's intelligent and rational and interesting.

Seems like a silly playground spat to me, and all she was doing was conducting a poll. If you don't like the idea, vote #3. Don't make it personal and piss people off, especially when KillerMuffin is right -- if she wanted power, she could probably get it without something as obvious as a poll. I haven't been around all that long myself, but I've never known her to be anything other than forthright; neither I nor anyone else has any logical reason to suspect otherwise now.

If anyone needs me, I'll be in the other room organizing ammunition and propoganda.

 

[Croctden]

I've always questioned the wisdom of trying to control conversation. If you try to adopt strict rules about what is said on this forum, I just think you are setting up for a big hassle. Honestly I would prefer more discussion about writing, but if that was all there was the board would read as though it was lecture. Discussion, even among engineers, has to have some flow to it. I don't particularly like finding threads that are just two people going back and forth with inside jokes, but I just hit my back button and move on.

 

[openthighs_sarah]

I've always questioned the wisdom of trying to control conversation.

Isn't the idea of controlling ("directing") conversation implicit in the whole notion of a discussion board? (Not criticizing, here, just asking a question.) "Uncontrolled conversation" is the very definition of the General Board -- which isn't a bad thing, necessarily; it's just not for everyone.

I don't think anyone is really suggesting that any of the forums have to be totally on-topic all the time. The problem is only when the ratio of non-topical to topical discussion becomes so skewed that the original purpose of the forum is lost. Obviously there were enough people who felt this had happened in the AH to justify an inquiry.

If you created a forum to talk about dogs and it became infiltrated with cat-lovers and endless discussions of litter boxes, you would probably at least consider the idea of either adding a new "cat" forum, or moderating the existing one.

 

[Madame Manga]

Since the balance of noise to signal on this forum seems to re-adjusted itself already, I'm not keen on changing the system. Sure, it's a little chaotic, but I can usually find what I need by reading thread titles. I don't think it's so out of control that we have to be moderated. This ain't the BDSM forum or the General Board. Direct democracy usually works pretty well around here; I have never had to put anyone from this forum on Ignore.

I am not a filer in real life. ;-) I am the sort who piles papers and books on the floor as needed and knows approximately where I last saw any particular item. I realize not everyone likes it that way and that some might prefer more strongly drawn lines between topics. Hell, I lose stuff all the time. I'm not saying that my preferences are the best of all possible worlds.

But currently I have a bug up my butt about another forum I often visit: it is what I would call OVER-moderated. It's devoted to a particular novelist, and there are separate forums for each of the novels, another forum for comparisons between the novels, and so on, ad nauseum. Every page of the message postings on every forum is dotted with snippy reminders from the moderators about the board rules; cross-topic postings are utterly verboten and are summarily deleted, even if they stem naturally from the flow of talk. This strangles any semblance of lively discussion in its cradle and keeps every poster looking over her shoulder for the Topic Police.

Not saying that you are likely to institute a reign of terror, KM! ;-) I'm just down on the concept in general right now.

What am I afraid of if Lit yields to the temptation to subdivide? That the current free flow will slow to a trickle. Conversational exchange is a delicate thing. Even small changes in the parameters may disproportionately disturb it. Division for the sake of division does not appeal to me. Recategorization for the benefit of new posters looking for the right place to go is another thing. I am not in favor of making it hard to find your way around here, though I never had the impression that it was all that difficult.

MM

 

[Guest]

Madame Manga:

Thanks for a very thoughtful and intelligent post. I'm just sayin'.

regards, Perdita

 

[flawed_ethics]

Kinda funny that people are looking at the writing sections of Lit and the others as seperate. I envision the Lit boards as a whole. There's just forums so you don't have to sift through hundreds of posts just to read one that pertains to what you wish to discuss.

I think splitting a fourm would only be necessary if there were too much clutter. Take the Lit Personals for instance. People were striking up all sorts of odd conversations there about hooking up without actually hooking up. It became unusually difficult to find an actual personal profile in there. It was split (creating The Playground), and now there are both Personals and innane personals chatter. Everyone wins.

While collecting the fourms under a common fourm is intriuging, I don't think it's necessary. If an AH's thread looks trite, I'll pass over it. If it were to provoke discussion and thought, I would hope the originator would put more thought into the thread's title to being with.

Just my opinion. I voted '3'.

 

[kiwiwolf]

Hi folks.

I haven't been around forever but when I came in here way back when it was to get away from the GB as well as to discuss writing. One of the great things about the Hangout was the fact that I could mix with other authors without all the crap generally associated with the GB, yet still have a bit of fun.

The light and fluffy threads were there but were far outweighed by the serious writing discussion threads. It was great.

I voted 3 basically because I now have more time to spend online and plan to come back to Lit. I also plan to spend more time in the Hangout than on the GB. See y'all soon.

 

[oggbashan]

I do wonder why a press for change is a strike against me. I'd really like to hear the logic.

It is not a strike against you. It is a strike against you becoming a moderator by default.

I would also be ineligible to be a moderator of the Author's Hangout because I also have made my position clear. I want it to stay as it is.

If there is to be a moderator it should be someone who is not already committed and is willing to let things run until threads go too far. How far is "too far" is a value judgement as fraught with difficulty as "What is a good story?".

The Author's Hangout has already changed. It is not what it was a few short weeks ago because of this debate. To that extent it is self-correcting because we are all adults (says so in the rules). Some threads take off on serious topics, some are humourous. There is less mixing than there was.

I believe that many of the fun threads are actually helping us as authors. DurtGurl's contributions, posts, stories and poetry are satire on some of the stories on Literotica. Unfortunately most of us can recognise some of the errors that DurtGurl highlights. The DurtGurl contributions take as much effort and skill as normal stories.

I do not want the Author's Hangout moderated by anyone. The interaction that has happened recently shows that we can discuss the issues seriously and that discussion, by itself, can correct the emphasis of threads in the Hangout.

Og

 

[Chicklet]

re: blah blah blah

So what if the voting were to come out like this:

One - 12
Two - 12
Three - 15

I would take it to mean that the majority of us *do* want change, but we just don't have exactly what the change ought to be down yet. I would think that for a poll like that, we could split it up into a new poll saying "Okay, the AH *is* going to change, as of majority request, and would you rather have option 1 or 2?"

Re: KM's moderation:

I think that this forum *would* need a moderator *only if* it got divided up because a moderator can move appropriate threads to the appropriate places. I think that KM would be a good moderator because she has opinions but that doesn't mean she'll side against someone with opposite opinions. So she wants change? That doesn't mean that she's sitting in the corner glaring and whispering about anyone that doesn't want change. Change is good, after all.

Honestly, if we were going to do the moderator thing, I think KM would be the best first choice. After that I'd get selfish and ask to help out, too, because I love the Author's Hangout and spend most of my free time period here. But that's because I'm a twit.

-Chicklet