Respect Our Enemies -- Why?

Roxanne Appleby

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Respect Our Enemies -- Why?

Atlasphere Opinion Editorial by Tibor Machan - Oct 23, 2006
http://www.theatlasphere.com/columns/061023-machan-respect.php

Freeman Dyson, who is a famous physicist and Professor Emeritus at the Institute for Advanced Studies, Princeton University, wrote the following lines in The New York Review of Books that are, in my view, worth reflecting upon:

“Yes, I wrote that we should respect our enemies as human beings in order to understand them. I do not tract or apologize for this statement. I would like only to add a more general statement, that our lack of respect for our enemies made it harder for us to deal with them effectively.” [11/02/2006. p. 63]

Why should one respect someone as a human being? Does being a human being amount to some worthwhile achievement? No. Why then respect one merely for being human — Hitler was human, Ted Bundy was human, slaveholders were human, and child molesters are human.

It is pretty preposterous to consider all of them worthy of any sort of respect (although perhaps some of them did a few things that may be so, say, kept a clean house or treated their pets nicely). So, that part of Professor Dyson's claim is arguably false, unless, at least, it is seriously modified or amended.

Why would lack of respect imply lack of understanding? Much of the world around us deserves no respect at all, yet we can understand it pretty well.

As a physicist, does Professor Dyson respect the electron or the quark? Do these inanimate, non-conscious beings go about earning our respect? Just how would that be, since they make no decisions, good or bad, worthwhile or not?

Or are we to just respect anything, in which case the concept loses all of its distinctive meaning. It looks like, then, that we could come to understand our enemies, too, without respecting them.

Of course, if “respect” amounts to nothing more than “giving something its due,” including anything at all, regardless of accomplishment or merit, then, yes, by all means let’s respect our enemies, as well as everything we need to understand — hurricanes, viruses, the plague, vicious crooks, and so forth. But then, once again, “respect” is being used quite idiosyncratically.

Now if “respect” is really synonymous with “understand,” then the last part of Professor Dyson’s point is a tautology, an empty utterance — let's understand our enemies because if we don’t, we won’t understand them. No big news here.

Actually, often to understand our enemies it is imperative that we have no respect for them. Respecting them could well prejudice our understanding of them. We may be tempted to ascribe to them good qualities they do not have and by such means be tempted to misunderstand them quite seriously.

Now I am not familiar with Professor Dyson’s complete philosophy and do not know whether, as a physicist, he believes in ethics, in the idea that some people are more deserving than others because of how they choose to act.

It is often the case with natural scientists that they view the world as morally neutral, through and through, to the point that ethics is precluded even from an understanding of human existence. It is all just que sera, sera for them, with no personal responsibility, no freedom of will possible.

In such a case talk of respect is, of course, superfluous — at most it means being awed by the world, by all of it, by what are deemed vicious and virtuous deeds equally. But then, of course, the idea of an enemy goes by the wayside, too.

At most some things may have adverse impact on some other things but there can be no enemy since all sides are simply playing out the ways of impersonal nature. Sure, the lion may be the enemy of the zebra and the zebra of the grass, but all such talk is myth, without any possibility of truth to it.

But as I said, I am not sure if that is how Professor Dyson looks at things — I suspect his ideas on such matters are complicated. So let us just stick to what he believed is worth presenting to the readers of The New York Review of Books.

And all in all those ideas, albeit put cryptically, don’t amount to much that’s useful or true. The implicit doctrine of tolerance that they contain — let’s respect everyone, enemy and friend alike — is, I submit, more dangerous than the occasional mindless moralism some of his adversaries may evince.

To tolerate the intolerable, as that famous neo-Marxist Herbert Marcuse argued many moons ago with his doctrine of repressive tolerance, is not a virtue but a vice. If nothing else, Professor Dyson might acknowledge this fact as he considers the worthiness of those who disagree with him about these matters.



Tibor Machan is the R. C. Hoiles Professor of Business Ethics & Free Enterprise at Chapman University's Argyros School of B&E and is a research fellow at the Pacific Research Institute (San Francisco, CA) and the Hoover Institution (Stanford University, CA).
 
The only respect an enemy deserves is perhaps that he is, and this is on a individual basis, a good warrior, tactician, statagist. But just because he is a human being, no it don't think so.

And I will only respect him as much as he respects me.
 
Roxanne Appleby said:
Why should one respect someone as a human being? Does being a human being amount to some worthwhile achievement? No. Why then respect one merely for being human — Hitler was human, Ted Bundy was human, slaveholders were human, and child molesters are human.
*Sigh*

Here we go again. Really, Roxanne, if you're going to post such arguements, can you please post one without such blatant logical fallacies?

This is apples and oranges! Hitler might well have been a monster not worthy of respect...but a typical German soldier in his army was pretty much like any soldier in any other army. He probably didn't want to fight and die, he probably had a sweetheart, a family, kids, yadda, yadda, yadda.

To compare ALL enemies we have--and that includes a lot of folk who probably don't even know they're our enemies--to folk like Ted Bundy and child molesters is pretty absurd.

Apples and Oranges. Ted Bundy did not see himself as protecting his land, his family his sacred honor while he tortured and murdered innocent young women.

As a physicist, does Professor Dyson respect the electron or the quark? Do these inanimate, non-conscious beings go about earning our respect? Just how would that be, since they make no decisions, good or bad, worthwhile or not?
And here he does it again! An electron is not a person. Not even an animal. Not only is he comparing apples and oranges again, but he's also using one of the worst and nastiest logical fallacies--changing the meaning of the word as posed.

There's "respect" as in 'Respect your elders"--but that's not the same as saying "you need to respect this wild animal or you'll get eaten."

I presume that Prof. Dyson mean the later, not the former. You don't respect the enemies as you would your elders, but you do respect them as you might a dangerous animal--or else you don't understand them and you DO get eaten.

This makes perfect sense.

I really abhor how "neocons" take anything said that remotely objects to their pov and spin it out of control. This whole tirade is nonsense. It takes a reasonable statement and deliberately tries to make it look absurd in order to keep us killing "the enemy."

And hey, I'm all for turning enemies into nasty cartoons if it's our land being invaded and it's fight or lose everything. 1940's cartoons and movies of Germans and Japanese portrayed them as monsters, the better to murder them without conscience or consideration.

But this is not WWII, as much as the Neocons want it to be. And it does everyone a disservice to respond to such arguments with logical fallacies and deliberate misundertandings rather than true consideration of the argument and logical and rational rebuttals.

It's also an insult to MY intelligence to tell me that enemies deserve "no respect" because they're like Ted Bundy. Please! Some people are monsters. Others are people. And soldiers in a war are soldiers in a war--with all that entails including the probability that they'll committ attrocities (like AMERICAN soldiers have in Iraq). You can't turn them into monsters by labeling them "enemies."

And to "disrespect" Dyson by saying that he's saying "let's understand our enemies because if we don’t, we won’t understand them. No big news here" is truely insulting given that lack of UNDERSTANDING (as in Iraq), the political situation and how taking out a dictator could destablize it has gotten us into one hell of a mess.

If it's "no big news" then why can't the leaders of this country tell us the difference between Sunnis and Shi'a? 99% of America couldn't tell you the difference...so we don't "understand"--and it is NEWS that we NEED to understand. Isn't it.

Like I said. Nonsense.
 
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Just another way of making it "us" against "them."

*sigh*
 
Respect is fine - as long as it is not confused with appeasement.

An 'enemy' by definition wants to change the status quo, they can be the oppressed or the powerful. Unfailingly, they want something you have. The choice is to give it to them or deny it to them - there is no middleground with an enemy. Talking takes you so far, an accommodation may be reachable rendering a degree of honour to both sides. If talking fails, the only choice is to concede your enemies demands - or defeat him/her.

Western policy <huge generalisation> is largely appeasement based - it rarely works - as 200,000 dead Iraqi's could tell you, if they could talk.

I fear the coming decades, the policy of appeasement strengthens the enemies hand, (on both sides) demands an ever higher profile of attack and target. Those who might be regarded as 'enemies of the western powers' depending upon your individual viewpoint, are in ignorance of the true might of Western powers. The west has foresaken absolute power for appeasement snared by its collective cultural conscience and fear of ideological retaliation from equally powerful nation states. Thus North Korea can develop a nuclear arsenal under the protection of the Chinese. The stakes rise ever higher, when the sword falls, the stain will tarnish all equally. Destroy your enemy by all means - just as long as you can live with the aftermath. The time for appeasement draws to a close.
 
3113 said:
This is apples and oranges! Hitler might well have been a monster not worthy of respect...but a typical German soldier in his army was pretty much like any soldier in any other army. He probably didn't want to fight and die, he probably had a sweetheart, a family, kids, yadda, yadda, yadda.

To compare ALL enemies we have--and that includes a lot of folk who probably don't even know they're our enemies--to folk like Ted Bundy and child molesters is pretty absurd.
The writer did not define "enemies." You have inferred a very broad definition, and claimed on the basis of your inference that the writer is illogical.

Take away your inference, narrow "enemy" to mean an individual who defines himself as such, and who seeks to do harm to you, your social group or other innocent people, and all your objections disappear.



The article makes a valid point about semantics and fuzzy thinking. It does not make any reference to current events or geopolitics. Readers may wish to apply the specific point to current events, and that is reasonable. But to fail to engage the point he makes, instead make your own point about current events, and believe that you have answered his point is to risk looking foolish, or at least saying something you might not really believe.
 
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cloudy said:
Just another way of making it "us" against "them."

*sigh*
See my previous post. The only "thems" cited in the article are Hitler, Ted Bundy, slaveholders, and child molesters.

Yes, it is indeed us against them.
 
If you want examples of why you should understand your enemy simply look at all the historical examples.

The U.S. war vs. the Apache. One fool claimed he could ride across Apache land with just a company and he tried it. No one's ever heard from him since.

The Axis vs. the Allies. "Decadent swine, afraid to die" was the Axis consensus. Guess who lost.

The U.S. vs Vietnam. "Bunch of backward slopes" The strongest nation in the world lost.

The Soviet Union vs. Afghnistan. "Ragheads" The second most powerful nation in the world lost.

The Art of War makes it very clear.
So it is said that if you know others and know yourself you will not be imperiled in a hundred battles; if you do not know others but know yourself, you win one and lose one; if you don not know others and do not know yourself, you will be imperiled in every single battle.

Chapter 3 - Planning A Siege

Respecting your enemy may also open the door to peace, as respecting requires understanding, and understanding means you can come to an agreement.

"Jaw, jaw is better than war, war." Winston Churchill
 
Roxanne Appleby said:
Yes, it is indeed us against them.

But it shouldn't be, and that's my point.

People are people are people. Unfortunately, the human race feels some intrinsic need for violence, and thus makes up the lines that separate us into "us" and "them." Historically, those lines are based on race or religion, and when those two things don't fit any more, they'll come up with something else, never fear.
 
My 'them' is based on criteria other than whether they come from a different culture than mine.

I judge people as individuals, by the way they act. If they're motivated by the Seven Deadlies, especially Pride, Wrath and Avarice; and act on those motivations, those people are my 'them'.
 
The Reverend Ian Paisley (Ulster Unionist) - "I will not sit in the same room as that man." About Martin McGuinness, (Sein Fein). Both elected Members of Parliament in Ulster (Northern Ireland) and UK. (McGuinness has never 'taken up' his seat in the UK House of Parliament. Neither has respect for the others position, attempting to destroy each other failed, appeasement has simple defined the ideology that divides them. A stand-off - waiting for old men to die in the hope that the next generation might rationalise their future.

Reminds me of that great Larry Adler quote (with apology to anyone who might be offended) - 'You can lead a whore to culture, but you can't make her think.'
 
cloudy said:
But it shouldn't be, and that's my point.

People are people are people. Unfortunately, the human race feels some intrinsic need for violence, and thus makes up the lines that separate us into "us" and "them." Historically, those lines are based on race or religion, and when those two things don't fit any more, they'll come up with something else, never fear.
Why should it be us against Hitler, Ted Bundy, slaveholders, and child molesters? Again, those are the only "enemies" cited in the article. Also, it says not one word about violence. It talks about respect.

I would say in the case of those four examples it's "us against them" because they chose to make it so. We had no choice in the matter.
 
rgraham666 said:
Respecting your enemy may also open the door to peace, as respecting requires understanding, and understanding means you can come to an agreement.

The artcle is about respecting "enemies," which it does not define, but which I defined as "an individual who defines himself as such, and who seeks to do harm to you, your social group or other innocent people." I don't see how peace is an option as long as an individual continues to define himself in this way.

"Why would lack of respect imply lack of understanding? Much of the world around us deserves no respect at all, yet we can understand it pretty well. As a physicist, does Professor Dyson respect the electron or the quark? Do these inanimate, non-conscious beings go about earning our respect? Just how would that be, since they make no decisions, good or bad, worthwhile or not? Or are we to just respect anything, in which case the concept loses all of its distinctive meaning. It looks like, then, that we could come to understand our enemies, too, without respecting them."

"Why should one respect someone as a human being? Does being a human being amount to some worthwhile achievement? No. Why then respect one merely for being human — Hitler was human, Ted Bundy was human, slaveholders were human, and child molesters are human."

So respect is not necessary for understanding. Being human is not sufficient to warrant respect. And peace is not possible with a person as long as he defines himself as your enemy and intends to harm you.
 
It's really simple, Roxanne.

Every human being is a miracle. Think about it. What are the chances of a particular spermatazoa and a particular ovum getting together to create a particular person? How particular are the events that occur to shape that person?

Life itself is vanishingly rare. We fool ourselves about how common it is because we live in one of those places where it occurs. Sentiient life is rarer still.

Some people betray the miracle they are. Those people I will oppose.

I won't hate or fear them though. As that favourite saying of mine goes, "What you resist, you become."
 
rgraham666 said:
It's really simple, Roxanne.

Every human being is a miracle. Think about it. What are the chances of a particular spermatazoa and a particular ovum getting together to create a particular person? How particular are the events that occur to shape that person?

Life itself is vanishingly rare. We fool ourselves about how common it is because we live in one of those places where it occurs. Sentiient life is rarer still.

Some people betray the miracle they are. Those people I will oppose.

I won't hate or fear them though. As that favourite saying of mine goes, "What you resist, you become."
To repeat, the article is not about hating or fearing. It's about "respecting."
 
Roxanne Appleby said:
The writer did not define "enemies." You have inferred a very broad definition, and claimed on the basis of your inference that the writer is illogical.

Take away your inference, narrow "enemy" to mean an individual who defines himself as such, and who seeks to do harm to you, your social group or other innocent people, and all your objections disappear.
No, they don't, Roxanne. Although you're quite right in one respect. I misread the logical fallacy. It's not apples and oranges--it's that deliberate misunderstanding of what's being said--of taking the word "respect" and twisting it so that it can be undermined.

Dyson says, "we should respect our enemies as human beings in order to understand them" and Machan responds: "Why should one respect someone as a human being? Does being a human being amount to some worthwhile achievement."

This is the logical fallacy of "equivocation." Dyson means: "When we look at an enemy we should remember they are human. It will help us to understand them." This is what he means by respect. He doesn't want us to see enemies (normal soldiers, not serial killers) as cartoons or stereotypes or monsters. He feels that will keep us from an important advantage of understanding them.

Machan PRETENDS (or is he stupid?) that somehow this sentence means that we should respect our enemies as we "respect" our elders--i.e., that they've earned some sort of "respect." It means no such thing--and the context should have been enough to indicate that. But by using THAT definition of "respect" he is able to argue that human beings deserve no respect for just being human beings. He not only twists the meaning of the word "respect" out of context, but mis-interpets the ENTIRE SENTENCE.

But to fail to engage the point he makes, instead make your own point about current events, and believe that you have answered his point is to risk looking foolish, or at least saying something you might not really believe.
Oh, PLEASE, Roxanne! None of us are THAT naive. What enemies is Dyson talking about? Enemies that are trying to undermine him in science, perhaps? Enemy, used by anyone currently, is going to IMPLY "enemies" of the U.S., which usually mean "terrorists" (another ill-defined word) and anyone we are fighting en masse.

Not gang members or serial killers or people plagerizing our work in science. As for Ted Bundy, we define him as a "criminal" not an enemy, Hitler is dead and slave-owers, who still exist in the world, aren't fighting us and we're not fighing them.

So who IS the enemy that Dyson could have been talking about? And, Okay, what if he DID mean Ted Bundy? Oh, my gosh! They use PROFILERS to catch serial killers. That means they TRY TO UNDERSTAND THEM--ditto with child molesters....which, amazingly enough, fits right in with Dyson' meaning of respect.

So even according to those narrow terms, Dyson is right. But frankly, Roxanne, you can't post this and then tell us how we should read it and define enemy. Just because the article only mentions "Hiter" et-al, doesn't mean that's how "enemy" can be defined--limited to slave holders and child molesters. Enemy has a much wider range of meaning. You're making the same mistake with "enemy" as Machan does with "respect." Limiting it to what YOU want it to mean so you can win the argument

That's a fallacy called, "Defining yourself to victory."

So let's not play games here. Why should Machan write an ENTIRE article taking a physics professor to task for saying we should "respect our enemies" if all he wants to do is argue semantics?

Oh, but wait, he DOES have an ajenda:
It is often the case with natural scientists that they view the world as morally neutral, through and through, to the point that ethics is precluded even from an understanding of human existence. It is all just que sera, sera for them, with no personal responsibility, no freedom of will possible.

Oh, gosh, MORE logical fallacies! Ad hominem, and oh, gosh, generalization, and I think there's a straw man in there, too. Tsk. Tsk. Oh, and that undermining of the elite, always a favorite. Those smart folk don't know nothing!

So let's see how many logically fallacies this guy deliberately makes and why: (1) Equovocation: He implies that Dyson "respects" bad people not because they deserve it but because they are human, which is absurd (Dyson is not saying that and means no such thing), (2) Generalization: he goes on to tell us to disregard any ethical commentary scientists make because they are often "morally neutral" (I really think Newton and few others would have something to say about that, don't you?). So, if somone is a scientist, it's likely that they're not going to know virtuous from vicious deeds. (3) Questionable premis: He implies that there is an absolute right and wrong and ethical people know which is which, yes? Virtuous from vicious deeds...hmmm. Whole can of worms there, (4) Ad hominen: he implies that anyone who thinks this way doesn't believe in responsibility (HOW did he make that leap? Again, Dyson says no such thing. Quite a trick this guy pulls logicing from "understand your enemy" to "enemies are not responsible for what they do").

This whole argument is a thinly veiled character assassination which does not argue semantic or logic or the real arguement at all. All it does, in the end, is try to get the reader to dismiss Dyson by way of the usual logical fallacies used by those who don't really want to discuss the argument.

I'm sorry, but to me, the only fools are those who admire this writer and his foolish arguments.

Still illogical. Still nonsense.
 
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this is just a variant of Rand's thing about NOT helping rescue just any drowning person, but trying to figure if they're worthy.

here, apparently, before you say, "Hello, How are you?" you have to figure out if they're a scoundrel.

here's a simple one for Rox the Fox: You're one of Ted Bundy's jailers, you want him to accompany you to the office, Do you say,
"Mr. Bundy, please come with me." OR
"Monster, get off you ass and come with me or I'll smash your no good skull in."
 
Roxanne Appleby said:
The artcle is about respecting "enemies," which it does not define, but which I defined as "an individual who defines himself as such, and who seeks to do harm to you, your social group or other innocent people." I don't see how peace is an option as long as an individual continues to define himself in this way.
No side ever defines itself as an enemy and seeks to harm. It always defines the other side an enemy and seeks to defend itself from it.
 
3113 said:
Machan PRETENDS (or is he stupid?) that somehow this sentence means that we should respect our enemies as we "respect" our elders--i.e., that they've earned some sort of "respect." It means no such thing . . . --and the context should have been enough to indicate that. But by using THAT definition of "respect" he is able to argue that human beings deserve no respect for just being human beings. He not only twists the meaning of the word "respect" out of context, but mis-interpets the ENTIRE SENTENCE.
Actually, it's Dyson who appears to be using the word "respect" in that "respect our elders" sense, not Machan. As Machan wrote, "if respect is really synonymous with 'understand,' then Professor Dyson’s point is a tautology, an empty utterance — let's understand our enemies because if we don’t, we won’t understand them."

3113 said:
So who IS the enemy that Dyson could have been talking about? And, Okay, what if he DID mean Ted Bundy? Oh, my gosh! They use PROFILERS to catch serial killers. That means they TRY TO UNDERSTAND THEM--ditto with child molesters....which, amazingly enough, fits right in with Dyson' meaning of respect.
Yes, the same meaningless tautolgical meaning: "respect = understand."

3113 said:
But frankly, Roxanne, you can't post this and then tell us how we should read it and define enemy. Just because the article only mentions "Hiter" et-al, doesn't mean that's how "enemy" can be defined--limited to slave holders and child molesters. Enemy has a much wider range of meaning. . . . (Dawson) doesn't want us to see enemies (normal soldiers, not serial killers) as cartoons or stereotypes or monsters.
Very well, you want to expand the meaning to things like "normal soldiers." OK then, let's get specific, and imagine we're on a battlefield and the normal soldiers are trying to kill us. We're unlikely to forget that they are humans, or think they are "cartoons or stereotypes." The only thing it's important for us to understand in that situation is the capacity of the soldier to kill us. So "respect" in the sense of "respecting elders" really doesn't enter into it.

3113 said:
So let's not play games here. Why should Machan write an ENTIRE article taking a physics professor to task for saying we should "respect our enemies" if all he wants to do is argue semantics? Oh, but wait, he DOES have an ajenda . . .
Agendas - OK, Let's begin at the beginning. Why should Dyson write a piece that appears to promote a meaningless tautology in The New York Review of Books, and why should it publish that? Unless Dyson isn't offering a meaningless tautology but means exactly what you say he doesn't mean, which is to "repect your enemy" in the sense you aptly identified, the same sense as "respect your (wise) elders."

What agenda are Dyson and the New York Review of Books promoting?

3113 said:
(Machan) implies that there is an absolute right and wrong and ethical people know which is which, yes? Virtuous from vicious deeds...hmmm. Whole can of worms there.
Indeed - a can opened by those whose agenda is to convince us that "virtue" and "vicious" are essentially meaningless terms because there is no absolute right and wrong ethical people can distinguish. So we just "respect" them all.

Illogical nonsense? Let each reader judge for him or herself.
 
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Liar said:
No side ever defines itself as an enemy and seeks to harm. It always defines the other side an enemy and seeks to defend itself from it.
I think some extremist groups have classed themselves as 'enemies of capitalists/imperialists etc'. Some politicians eroniously label themselves as 'enemies of waste/corruption etc' Apart from which, the moment the 'other side' is defined as 'the enemy' you become their enemy. As Rob said, "What you resist, you become."

A general question: Does the Bible mention forgiving the Devil? Just curious.
 
There are a few people that I hate. I mean really hate. People I'd not mourn over if they died in a car accident or by a drug overdose or by being attacked by a viscious bear.

But if one of them fell into the river, I would try to save him from drowning. Not because he deserves it. Not because I'm such a friggin' nice person.

But because he's a human being. A living creature. I may loathe my enemies, but I respect their lives.
 
Svenskaflicka said:
I may loathe my enemies, but I respect their lives.
What if it's their lives vs. the lives of an innocent, or many innocents? This is not a "false choice" - it's a real choice that faces law enforcement officers from time to time.
 
one classics scholar noted that the 'worthy enemy' is a concept found in classical Greece. if you look at the Iliad, Hector, leader of 'the enemy' is shown as having a number of virtues. indeed the Trojans are not vilified; Euripides could write of The Trojan Women, and convey their grief.

particularly with the advent of Xtianity, the 'enemy' became an *evil* person: as St Paul speaks of those who will come to know God's wrath:

They exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator-- who is forever praised. Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural ones.... Furthermore, since they [these men] did not think it worthwhile to retain the knowldge of God, he gave them over to the depraved mind.... They have become filled with every kind of wickedness, evil, greed and depravity. .... Although they know God's righteous decree that those who do such things deserve death, they not only continue to do these very things, but also approve of those who practice them' Rom 1:25-32

Part of this picture is that the evil person *knows* he's evil but persists out of sheer spite and malice; this is a characteristic of the bad guys in Ayn Rand novels.

In the passage above, you can see how Xtians would apply the above to Native Persons. those who allegedly worship idols are *wicked*, that is, immoral. hence the Native People, as The Evil Enemy, have to be exterminated.

---
i believe 3113 has made some good points about the foot soldier who fights for the 'enemy'; he may be Russian or German. Is he scum, like his leaders, or pretty much like the 18 year olds he face?

this is not to say he should not be opposed-- this twist that Roxanne has injected: if you 'respect' him, you're going to give him hot chocolate instead of shooting him.

once you capture him, however, the difference of philosophies shows: one side hold that captives are to be treated with respect, and concern for their dignity [Geneva and all that old fashioned nonsense, as Gonzales said]; the other side, e.g. that of Rummy and the Generals who oversaw Guantamo, Abu Ghraib etc. is that these are evil persons plotting further evil, so it's 'no holds barred.'
indeed, along the lines of Roxanne's argument they are NOT really human; so one can see the appropriate symbolism of putting dog collars and leashes on them.
 
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If you are involved in a war, it is necessary to respect your enemy to precisely the degree that he deserves respect.

Frequently it is necessary to figure that your enemy's leadership [ha!] is composed of severely retarded incompetents, in order to figure out what they are likely to do. Very occasionally you run into a real leader and you have to be very careful.

Again, most of your field commanders are severely retarded incompetents. However, when you do run into an able field commander you have two choices. You can fight him, which is stupid. Or you can provide him with more severely retarded incompetents as soldiers [very difficult for me] and wait for the incompetents to turn his efficient operation into a debating society. Then you kill him.

Most soldiers are severely retarded incompetents. However, if they do get proper leadership, they can be dangerous. [Let me explain. I was able to hand pick my troops from the rejects of the armies in which I served. The severely retarded incompetents I also rejected. However, the criminally insane I recruited. The criminally insane are what are referred to in military terms as 100% effectives. Properly led, a dozen of them are an effective striking force. Your normal severely retarded incompetents are perhaps 10% effective. Thus, if I am outnumbered two to one, I actually effectively outnumber the enemy five to one.]

The one problem I had with my troops was in the matter of prisoners. The criminally insane do not take prisoners.
 
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