Research question: extreme hunger/starvation

[Kev H]

Writing a horror story (my first in many, many years - I've not been a fan of horror since college days), and was hoping someone had researched slow starvation enough to know if my plotline is accurate or at least believable. If you had water and small amounts of food (berries, the occational fish), how many days could you survive with enough energy to walk most of the day? 3? 4? 7? I know it probably varies, but I am looking for an average based on 30s/40s age and above average fitness for that age group (though not an athlete).

Also, near starvation, would wolfing down raw meat produce uncontrollable retching? And would rapid weakness follow, or does that sound too unrealistic? I am certainly not going to do my own research on this, if I can help it, heh. Any advice would be most appreciated. If you need further details in the interest of helping me out, please send me a PM.

 

[minsue]

Quick google turned up this -

When Does Energy Deficit Affect Soldier Physical Performance?

It should have some helpful info for you.

Not Eating Enough, 1995

Pp. 253–283. Washington, D.C.

National Academy Press

During the last month of the siege men at fatigues, such as trench-digging, after ten minutes' work had to rest a while and go at it again; men on sentry-go would drop down from syncope (the spell of duty had to be reduced to one hour instead of two); those carrying loads would rest every hundred yards or so.

Observations on the effects of restricted rations on British and Indian soldiers during the 1915–1916 Siege of Kut (Hehir, 1922, p. 867).

It goes on quite a bit in veeeery tiny print.

 

[Guest]

Writing a horror story (my first in many, many years - I've not been a fan of horror since college days), and was hoping someone had researched slow starvation enough to know if my plotline is accurate or at least believable. If you had water and small amounts of food (berries, the occational fish), how many days could you survive with enough energy to walk most of the day? 3? 4? 7? I know it probably varies, but I am looking for an average based on 30s/40s age and above average fitness for that age group (though not an athlete).

Also, near starvation, would wolfing down raw meat produce uncontrollable retching? And would rapid weakness follow, or does that sound too unrealistic? I am certainly not going to do my own research on this, if I can help it, heh. Any advice would be most appreciated. If you need further details in the interest of helping me out, please send me a PM.

One of the common misconceptions is that someone who has been starved will "wolf down" their food, and gorge themselves. In reality, the stomach shrinks down to eliminate the hunger pangs of starvation, which makes eating large amounts impossible. A starving person with usually take very little food at first, and slowly, so as not to throw it all back up.

Now, if the person is just really really hungry, before the stomach actually has the necessary time needed to adjust itself and shrink, they probably will wolf down their food. And probably throw it back up... because they ate too much too fast.

The human body on average can survive three-four weeks without food, as long as there is adequate water and salt. However if they sweat excessively (like in the desert) their muscles will give out from a lack of sodium and other electrolytes.

Okay.. damn. Science lesson over, and I read way too much Louis L'amour as a child.

 

[Kev H]

Thanks. You must be more persistent or more clever in your searches - mine were all heart-rending pics of starving children. I very quickly gave up when the pic on Wikipedia almost made me tear up. Hence the reason I am looking for more pointed info (not just being lazy...this one time).

 

[Selena_Kitt]

If you had water and small amounts of food (berries, the occational fish), how many days could you survive with enough energy to walk most of the day? 3? 4? 7?

3 minutes without air, 3 days without water, 3 weeks without food... the rule of 3's...

person, environment and food are your main factors to consider... if this is sub-zero or above 100 temps, it's a major factor... also, it's fat over muscle in terms of survival... the more fat you have on you, the longer you live, your body uses its stores... more muscle actually requires a lot of energy in... i.e. food

energy is going to lag, with not enough caloric intake... protein will help... so on days when there is fish, there will be more energy... the pace would slow on days when there wasn't protein... hard to guesstimate how long they could last... but it's fiction, so as long as you suspend disbelief, you're ok... I don't think 7 days is unreasonable...

and what Angel said about re-feeding... (taking little food at first or you'll vomit)... yep...

 

[minsue]

Thanks. Your must be more persistent or more clever in your searches - mine were all heart-rending pics of starving children. I very quickly gave up when the pic on Wikipedia almost made me tear up. Hence the reason I am looking for more pointed info (not just being lazy...this one time).

I knew that the odds were good the military has done plenty of studies on it so I simply searched "starvation soldier study" and spared myself the heartache.

 

[entitled]

Also try researching Alferd Packer and his party. There was an interesting study done about him, and the history channel has run a show about it a few times. Included in that were the specifics about caloric intake/caloric use and the effects on the men that were with him.

 

[Kev H]

Hmm that 3 weeks thing sounds more unbelievable than my plot, lol. Maybe I am just biased or don't want to consider suffering that long (nor do I want to write about it). I am going to buy into the fact that almost no food after even 4-5 days for slender people (who are used to a steady diet after 35ish years), are going to be too weak to, say, fight off an assault. The suspension of disbelief is helpful, but very, very important that it's done right in this kind of story - especially with the message I want to get across.

Thanks again.

 

[zeb1094]

Hmm that 3 weeks thing sounds more unbelievable than my plot, lol. Maybe I am just biased or don't want to consider suffering that long (nor do I want to write about it). I am going to buy into the fact that almost no food after even 4-5 days for slender people (who are used to a steady diet after 35ish years), are going to be too weak to, say, fight off an assault. The suspension of disbelief is helpful, but very, very important that it's done right in this kind of story - especially with the message I want to get across.

Thanks again.

I think I've gone longer than that when I last had the flu! If it hadn't been for that damn fever I could have fought off my attackers. Wait...no one attacked me, that was a dream...nevermind.

 

[Selena_Kitt]

Hmm that 3 weeks thing sounds more unbelievable than my plot, lol. Maybe I am just biased or don't want to consider suffering that long (nor do I want to write about it). I am going to buy into the fact that almost no food after even 4-5 days for slender people (who are used to a steady diet after 35ish years), are going to be too weak to, say, fight off an assault.

see now... this doesn't suspend my disbelief...
in my anorexic phase, I could go 7 days without even thinking about it... and I was going to school, doing normal stuff... no problem... a little more tired than usual... but... I was still going to gym... lol

and I have a friend at the moment who is 75 pounds and has lived on nothing but coffee for two months now... and she jogs every day.

The human body is AMAZING, the abuse it will take

and when it comes to an attacker, the fight/flight response WILL kick in, hungry or not... adrenaline motivates...

you may have to go a little further with the plot devices besides hunger to make the person weak... sickness would do it...

 

[Kev H]

see now... this doesn't suspend my disbelief...
in my anorexic phase, I could go 7 days without even thinking about it... and I was going to school, doing normal stuff... no problem... a little more tired than usual... but... I was still going to gym... lol

and I have a friend at the moment who is 75 pounds and has lived on nothing but coffee for two months now... and she jogs every day.

The human body is AMAZING, the abuse it will take

and when it comes to an attacker, the fight/flight response WILL kick in, hungry or not... adrenaline motivates...

you may have to go a little further with the plot devices besides hunger to make the person weak... sickness would do it...

Exactly the feedback I needed; thank you! It is truly amazing what the body will put up with - fascinating! Two fucking months on coffee?! LoL my theory of how awfully bad coffee is for you goes right down the toilet. Fortunately, I don't need them to die of starvation, just have it mess them up enough.

I'm gonna have to make fate much more vicious, more persistent. *flexes his digits of fate*

 

[Colleen Thomas]

Hmm that 3 weeks thing sounds more unbelievable than my plot, lol. Maybe I am just biased or don't want to consider suffering that long (nor do I want to write about it). I am going to buy into the fact that almost no food after even 4-5 days for slender people (who are used to a steady diet after 35ish years), are going to be too weak to, say, fight off an assault. The suspension of disbelief is helpful, but very, very important that it's done right in this kind of story - especially with the message I want to get across.

Thanks again.

You're best bet, as far as a storyline reference would to be check out the accounts of expeditions where starvation occured. An attempt by the english, to find the northwest passage ened up in the enitre expedition dying. I don't, however, remember the name of the expedition captain of the ship although I want to say endeavor.

Likewise, accounts from the days of sail, like that of the peggy can be instructive. Also, military history can be helpful, particular the battle of Guadalcanal in the solomons from the Japanese perspective. they called it starvation island.

How long you last, is, at least in part, a matter of how fit you are. In a generalization, your average couch potatoe will last longer than your average pro athlete. This has to do with the way startvation works.

In basic, starvation occurs when your body is using more energy than it's takin gin/or you are not taking in enough of the right nutrients. It willinitially tap your fat reserves, as these are the easiest to convert to gulose which the cells need for respiration. After that, you rbody strts on your mucles. When they are exhuasted, you body will begin to shut down, prioritizing to kep only those organs absolutely vital for life alive. At this point, your brin shuts down, so the higher functions are dead. It's one reason people can resort to cannibalism, so easily once they have reached this point. The higher functions, including those that define ethics are not fucntioning.

Other factors also weigh in. You burn more in the artic than in the tropics. You will become weaker, faster, if your minimal diet dosen't include salt of some type. In fact, after long enough, salt will actually taste sweet. How much activity you do also has an effect.

On the peggy, after two weeks of true starvation the crew were still mobile enough to kill someone & cook him. On guadalcanal, japanese troops were still able to make an enfebled banzai charge after weeks of living on grass shoots, insects, etc.

For my money, I'd set two weeks as the minimum, before your protag starts to really loose function. And well past that before he simply plays out. If you need a shorter time frame, might I suggest simply having his weakened imune system fail? Even a simple cold, which is an inconvinece to a regular person, could prove dehabilitating to someone on short or no rations. Alternately, if your setting is hot, he could simply fail because he didn't have the requisite salt intake or some other electrolyte.

In reality, it can take weeks to literally starve. that is to die from lack of food.

 

[thambok]

As the body goes into famine mode, the stomach shrinks, and fat stores start being depleted for energy. Also, the metabolism slows significantly in order to provide enough energy to maintain critical functions. After fat stores are depleted, the body begins to convert muscle tissue for energy. Thus why people who suffer from anorexia, famine, etc lose muscle tone and volume.

The human body is amazing at adjusting to changes in environment. There is an experiment you can do yourself to demonstrate the ability to adapt, without putting yourself to any risk. gradually increase your water intake over the course of two weeks. Begin with 1 quart per day, or four 8 ounce glasses. Increase to 2 quarts, and then to 4 quarts.

At first, you will need to urinate often, as your bladder and digestive track cannot handle the volume. When the body is fully hydrated, urine comes out clear and colorless. As you increase intake and grow used to it, you will find that your bladder adjusts and you will be able to go for long period without needing to urinate. By the end of 2 to 3 weeks, you will be able to drink well over a gallon of water a day, with no ill effects or measurable increase in need to urinate. When you cut that intake from 4 quarts to 2 quarts, you will find that your urine will again turn yellow, despite being more hydrated than you had been at the onset of the experiment, when it had been clear and colorless. Due to the gradual increase over time, the bodies metabolism goes into feast mode as it pertains to water. The body will use what it expects to be available. As you gradually reduce back down to the former level of intake, the body will adjust accordingly. Hydration levels will remain relatively consistent. Once each level of intake is stabilized, the need to urinate maintains a consistent rate, regardless of the amount of intake, up to a certain point. One word of caution. If you choose to drastically increase or decrease hydration, be sure that an adequate level of sodium is maintained in the body.

The same technique can be slightly modified to a method of torture by quickly chaging the hydration levels. By not allowing the body to stabilize, it remains in constant flux. When high levels are maintained, the need to urinate will feel almost constant. When water levels are sharply dropped, it can result in intense cramping, since the body is functioning at a level of expectation which isn't being met. As a result, it uses water already in the body. This is essentially an induced hangover. The more severe the drop in levels, the more severe the pain. If the fate is survival based, the pain can become a deadly factor. Pain, being a primal reaction, takes precedence over most emotion or thought, especially when its an acute pain. If that pain is maintained, functionality is reduced, and clear thought is impaired by the constant intrusion of the pain reflex.

I don't recommend experimenting with the sharp increase/decrease, but a gradual increase and decrease in hydration levels will give you an idea of the body's natural responses to changing levels of intake. The same holds true for changing levels of food intake. Keep in mind the number of things available in most environments that can provide nourishment. While not the most pleasant of existences, a human being can survive for a long time on insects, rodents, etc available in most areas. If starvation, or near starvation, is your goal, you will have to control the environment absolutely. When nourishment is available through non-desirable means, it becomes a psychological test of whether acceptance can be achieved before the body shuts down.

No. I am not nearly as demented as the knowledge in my head may indicate.

 

[Selena_Kitt]

No. I am not nearly as demented as the knowledge in my head may indicate

Ummhmmm... I believe ya...

 

[Lisa Denton]

There was an air force pilot whose friend had gone missing without a trace over wild country. So this guy had a boot cobbler sew a holster for his service revolver in one boot, and a waterproof container for matches and a small compass in the other of his flight boots.

He was over northern california mountains when his aircraft went all electrical systems down. He couldn't radio a MayDay and stayed with the aircraft too long, getting way, way off course, before punching out. He watch his aircraft flyin way the fuck on, and knew if they ever found the wreckage, he wouldn't be nowheres close.

He went through frostbite, near starvation on a re-curring basis, and no water several times. Without the matches to make fires, and his service revolver, which he used to make a trap on a game trail, he would have died.


He walked out of the mountains 6 months later.

Its a true story.

 

[thambok]

Ummhmmm... I believe ya...

I prefer to cause psychological pain, through direct routes. Usually self-condemnation. Physical pain is just so...... basic.

Nobody will ever make someone hurt more than they can hurt themselves. Short of death or permanent maiming, physical wounds heal. Psychological scars remain much longer and can rise again when least expected. If someone pushes me to the point that I wish to inflict pain upon them, I want it to last long after I am gone.

The good thing is that I have a looooooonnnnngggggg fuse. It takes a lot to get me to that point.