Research Question: Effects of time on 19th century bullets

[Belegon]

OK, I am probably going to do some googling of my own and such...but I HAVE to post a thread when I have an "authorly question" and CharleyH is rabble-rousing...

I have a character with a Colt firearm that is a collectors piece, circa 1885-1890. If he also owns ammunition from the period and we assume it has been well treated and kept in fairly good conditions as befits an "heirloom", would the ammo still fire? Or would it need to be loaded with modern bullets?

 

[TheeGoatPig]

I'm not an expert, but...

Modern bullets fire with more force than older ones. They could possibly destroy the gun.

Old black powder does get old, and doesn't always work properly when fired after long periods of time.

 

[CharleyH]

OK, I am probably going to do some googling of my own and such...but I HAVE to post a thread when I have an "authorly question" and CharleyH is rabble-rousing...

I have a character with a Colt firearm that is a collectors piece, circa 1885-1890. If he also owns ammunition from the period and we assume it has been well treated and kept in fairly good conditions as befits an "heirloom", would the ammo still fire? Or would it need to be loaded with modern bullets?

lol- wish I could help Bel, but I know nothing of guns. I would assume he could shoot the gun with his well kept bullets, but what year is it? I also assume that objects deteriorate over time, no matter how well kept.

 

[The_Fool]

I personally wouldn't. There are modern ammunitions that are specially designed for older guns that require reduced powder charges.


In the military, I have shot older cartridges, but the oldest stuff I shot was probably about 40 years old. I would be afraid of corrosion and reduced power of the powder leaving a bullet hanging in the barrel.

 

[Rumple Foreskin]

OK, I am probably going to do some googling of my own and such...but I HAVE to post a thread when I have an "authorly question" and CharleyH is rabble-rousing...

I have a character with a Colt firearm that is a collectors piece, circa 1885-1890. If he also owns ammunition from the period and we assume it has been well treated and kept in fairly good conditions as befits an "heirloom", would the ammo still fire? Or would it need to be loaded with modern bullets?

The original ammo might work, but would be very "iffy" and, as The Fool indicated, would not be advisable. If the lead and casing of the original bullets were in good shape, the ammo could be "re-loaded" with new caps and powder.

Rumple Foreskin

 

[Wildcard Ky]

I'm an expert in this area. I work in R&D for a major gun manufacturer.

It would depend on what model of Colt. Many guns back then were cap and ball. They fired a percussion cap to ignite a black powder charge propelling a lead ball.

In 1889 Colt introduced the Model 1889 revolver that was the basic modern design of a primed brass shell with smokeless powder.

So first you need to decide if it was a cap and ball gun, or the more modern 1889 revolver.

Cap and ball, there wouldn't be any loaded rounds available.

Modern style cartridge is iffy as to what would happen. If the ammo were to be stored in an almost hermetically sealed state, then yes it could potentially fire normally. Storage conditions would have to be perfect though. Sealed in an air tight/moisture proof packaging.

If it weren't sealed in this way, the results of trying to fire it would either be that it wouldn't go off, or it could literally explode.

If you want the technical explanation of why it would be a dud or explode, let me know. I won't bore you with all of the details here.

 

[Roxanne Appleby]

Hmmm - does black powder lose it's bang, or does it remain unchanged? Interesting question. That's probably what we're talking about here - black powder. The very first "smokeless" powder firearms came along right around this time, 1885-1890, but odds are this would be black powder.

Would the primer cap still work? I honestly don't know. Primers from that era were corrosive, so it wouldn't be a good thing to use in any event.

It is extremely dangerous to fire smokeless powder in a black powder firearm. The chamber pressures are much higher, and the possibility of the gun exploding and sending shrapnel right back into the shooter's or a bystander's face is real. (This might suggest an interesting plot twist for you. ) There are modern smokeless powder equivalents that are safe ("Pyrodex.")

The gun would potentially be very valuable.

Smokeless powders lose a little bit of their bang over time I think, but not all of it. 100 year old ammunition might well still fire. (It would not be prudent to use it.)

 

[Belegon]

actually, the idea that the ammo would be "iffy" is almost exactly what I was hoping for...it is what I assumed but had no legitimate reason for assuming...it isn't something that will affect the end result of my scene so much as the way I frame it...but the touch of uncertainty is the best dramatic factor I could have...

 

[Roxanne Appleby]

I'm an expert in this area. I work in R&D for a major gun manufacturer.

It would depend on what model of Colt. Many guns back then were cap and ball. They fired a percussion cap to ignite a black powder charge propelling a lead ball.

In 1889 Colt introduced the Model 1889 revolver that was the basic modern design of a primed brass shell with smokeless powder.

So first you need to decide if it was a cap and ball gun, or the more modern 1889 revolver.

Cap and ball, there wouldn't be any loaded rounds available.

Modern style cartridge is iffy as to what would happen. If the ammo were to be stored in an almost hermetically sealed state, then yes it could potentially fire normally. Storage conditions would have to be perfect though. Sealed in an air tight/moisture proof packaging.

If it weren't sealed in this way, the results of trying to fire it would either be that it wouldn't go off, or it could literally explode.

If you want the technical explanation of why it would be a dud or explode, let me know. I won't bore you with all of the details here.

1885-1890 - would not there have been complete rounds loaded with black powder widely available? I mean, not cap-and-ball - built in primers (probably rimfire?)

 

[CharleyH]

actually, the idea that the ammo would be "iffy" is almost exactly what I was hoping for...it is what I assumed but had no legitimate reason for assuming...it isn't something that will affect the end result of my scene so much as the way I frame it...but the touch of uncertainty is the best dramatic factor I could have...

Happy you got to it, Bel. for luck.

 

[drksideofthemoon]

OK, I am probably going to do some googling of my own and such...but I HAVE to post a thread when I have an "authorly question" and CharleyH is rabble-rousing...

I have a character with a Colt firearm that is a collectors piece, circa 1885-1890. If he also owns ammunition from the period and we assume it has been well treated and kept in fairly good conditions as befits an "heirloom", would the ammo still fire? Or would it need to be loaded with modern bullets?

If the firearm had been manufactured in that era, it would fire a cartridge filled with black powder.

Any cartridges that old could be hazardous to handle. The ammunition could be fired, but it could be very hazardous and not recommended. Black powder can do some funny things when stored for extremely long periods of time.

You can get new brass cartridges loaded with black powder, assuming the weapon was still safe to fire. You would not want to fire cartridges filled with modern smokeless powder from the weapon.

If you want more information on these type of weapons I would recommend googling for Single Action Societies, these people go out and shoot black powder weapons from this era on a regular basis.

 

[starrkers]

Modern ammunition, ie using modern smokeless powders etc, could irreparably damage the gun.
I've seen an old Colt revolver at an antiques firearms sale that had the frame stretched out of shape by an idiot firing modern ammo through it.

 

[mjl2010]

On a rather dumb lark (see what smokin that green does kids!) I once fired a few paper 12 gauge rounds that were quite old, about sixty years. They'd been kept well in a dry place, but it was still dangerous.

The first two went off just fine. The third one sort of "whooomped" and didn't make much noise. The shot just rolled out the barrel when I turned it down.

My friends and I were laughing of course and then we were off to do something else.

A couple days later I remembered our foolish moment and went to clean the shotgun. The rod didn't go all the way down the barrel and I had to push it hard. When it came out the old cardboard wad just popped out of the barrel.

Had I fired that shotgun a fourth time, it may well have blown up on me, injuring, killing or maiming not only me but my friends.

I was fortunate that the shotgun held only three shells. Had it held more I would have fired a fourth shot.

A much older wiser me no longer smokes green and never mixes guns with alcohol and if I still smoked that green stuff, I'd never mix that either. Same goes with driving.

mjl

 

[drksideofthemoon]

On a rather dumb lark (see what smokin that green does kids!) I once fired a few paper 12 gauge rounds that were quite old, about sixty years. They'd been kept well in a dry place, but it was still dangerous.

The first two went off just fine. The third one sort of "whooomped" and didn't make much noise. The shot just rolled out the barrel when I turned it down.

My friends and I were laughing of course and then we were off to do something else.

A couple days later I remembered our foolish moment and went to clean the shotgun. The rod didn't go all the way down the barrel and I had to push it hard. When it came out the old cardboard wad just popped out of the barrel.

Had I fired that shotgun a fourth time, it may well have blown up on me, injuring, killing or maiming not only me but my friends.

I was fortunate that the shotgun held only three shells. Had it held more I would have fired a fourth shot.

A much older wiser me no longer smokes green and never mixes guns with alcohol and if I still smoked that green stuff, I'd never mix that either. Same goes with driving.

mjl

This reminds me of a tale of my misspent youth.

I was about 11 or 12, and my dad had an old double barrel muzzle loading 12 gauge.

We took it out into the pasture behind the house, and dumped some powder down the barrel, no idea how much, and toliet paper for wadding. Then some shot followed, with more toliet paper. I put the percussion cap on the nipple, and aimed at an empty paint can that was perched on a fence post about 15 feet away.

I pulled the trigger and all hell broke loose. I ended up on my ass with a bruised shoulder. A huge white cloud of smoke drifted slowly away, with pieces of burning toliet paper all over the place....and not a scratch on the paint can...

With both my butt and pride bruised, we slunk back into the house and replaced the shotgun back in the gun cabinet.

 

[Jenny_Jackson]

Even in a cartridge, black powder will oxydize. Over the first 40 years or so, it will become more explosive. After that it will deteriorate to almost nothing. The rate of deterioration is dependant on the storage of the ammunition.

It's interesting to note that collectors will buy old ammunition in boxes. The BOXES are valuable, the ammunition is not.

I agree firing modern ammunition in the antique piece would be both foolish and dangerous. If the gun is cap and ball, you can make the balls or have them made. The molds are available. The caps are harder to find but also available (not recommended). Brass cartridges can be reloaded with black power and modern primers, assuming that the inside dimension of the brass at the head is within tolerance.

Another thing to think about is the piece itself. What kind of shape is it in? Even when new, many of the early cartridge Colts were "sloppy" with a lot of blow back when discharged. The best, I think, would be an upper end, SSA model in excellent preservation. Even then there are some dangers.

 

[Selena_Kitt]

OK, I am probably going to do some googling of my own and such...but I HAVE to post a thread when I have an "authorly question" and CharleyH is rabble-rousing...

I have a character with a Colt firearm that is a collectors piece, circa 1885-1890. If he also owns ammunition from the period and we assume it has been well treated and kept in fairly good conditions as befits an "heirloom", would the ammo still fire? Or would it need to be loaded with modern bullets?

I dunno, but now I wanna read it!

 

[mjl2010]

This reminds me of a tale of my misspent youth.

I was about 11 or 12, and my dad had an old double barrel muzzle loading 12 gauge.

We took it out into the pasture behind the house, and dumped some powder down the barrel, no idea how much, and toliet paper for wadding. Then some shot followed, with more toliet paper. I put the percussion cap on the nipple, and aimed at an empty paint can that was perched on a fence post about 15 feet away.

I pulled the trigger and all hell broke loose. I ended up on my ass with a bruised shoulder. A huge white cloud of smoke drifted slowly away, with pieces of burning toliet paper all over the place....and not a scratch on the paint can...

With both my butt and pride bruised, we slunk back into the house and replaced the shotgun back in the gun cabinet.

Tales of mispent youth...a thread idea?

MJL

 

[oggbashan]

Punt gun

One of my friends was a Parish Councillor in rural East Anglia.

The Parish owned an old building that had been the workhouse, and before that part of the structure had been a hunting lodge. The building was to be converted to flats (apartments) for the elderly.

The contractors found an old gun in one of the roof spaces. It was a punt gun, intended for use to kill water birds. It should be roped to the punt (a shallow draught flat bottom boat) and fired at sitting birds.

The younger Parish Councillors decided to try the gun out. They should have known better. They loaded it with a very small charge of black powder and a wad. It had to be fired by slowmatch. It made a satisfactory bang so they decided to try further. They found an old fibreglass canadian-style canoe and lashed the gun to it.

They loaded the gun with black powder, with bird shot, before they launched the canoe on a lake, aimed it at a floating target they had made, and ignited the touch-hole.

They had been persuaded by my friend that it might be better to detonate it by remote control so a radio controlled arm moved the slow match to the black powder.

The gun's recoil blew the canoe backwards about 30 yards including up the lake's bank into the bushes. The canoe and bushes caught fire and had to be put out. The target was untouched. The whole charge had fired into the water because no one had noticed that the canoe had a leak and was sinking by the bow.

The gun's barrel was six feet long with a bore of three inches. It is now on display in a local museum (with scorch marks).

Og

 

[Roxanne Appleby]

One of my friends was a Parish Councillor in rural East Anglia.

The Parish owned an old building that had been the workhouse, and before that part of the structure had been a hunting lodge. The building was to be converted to flats (apartments) for the elderly.

The contractors found an old gun in one of the roof spaces. It was a punt gun, intended for use to kill water birds. It should be roped to the punt (a shallow draught flat bottom boat) and fired at sitting birds.

The younger Parish Councillors decided to try the gun out. They should have known better. They loaded it with a very small charge of black powder and a wad. It had to be fired by slowmatch. It made a satisfactory bang so they decided to try further. They found an old fibreglass canadian-style canoe and lashed the gun to it.

They loaded the gun with black powder, with bird shot, before they launched the canoe on a lake, aimed it at a floating target they had made, and ignited the touch-hole.

They had been persuaded by my friend that it might be better to detonate it by remote control so a radio controlled arm moved the slow match to the black powder.

The gun's recoil blew the canoe backwards about 30 yards including up the lake's bank into the bushes. The canoe and bushes caught fire and had to be put out. The target was untouched. The whole charge had fired into the water because no one had noticed that the canoe had a leak and was sinking by the bow.

The gun's barrel was six feet long with a bore of three inches. It is now on display in a local museum (with scorch marks).

Og

Soon as I saw the words "punt gun" my thought was, "Primitive outboard motor."