Research goofs

[Bramblethorn]

John Boyne is an Irish novelist, probably best known for "The Boy in the Striped Pyjamas". His latest novel "A Traveller at the Gates of Wisdom", another historical fiction piece, has a description of how to make red dye for a dress:

"...nightshade, sapphire, keese wing, the leaves of the silent princess plant, Octorok eyeball, swift violet, thistle and hightail lizard... spicy pepper, the tail of the red lizalfos and four Hylian shrooms".

If those ingredients look odd, it's because Boyne apparently googled "recipe for red dye" and used the first thing that came up without realising that it was a crafting recipe from a video game, "Breath of the Wild".

https://twitter.com/DanaSchwartzzz/status/1290099395220799488

The book also features "kimonos" in historical China, Spanish names in pre-Spanish South America, and so on. It's funny but also a little irritating - I see plenty of amateur authors here on Literotica making much more effort to get the details right.

 

[AlinaX]

It's lazy and unprofessional and laughing it off as an oops is insulting.

 

[KeithD]

My biggest research gaff in published work, I think, was in a Bible study I wrote ascribing something to Judas Iscariot that, in fact, was connected to Judas, the son of James, the son of Zebedee, instead. Who knew there were two disciples with the name Judas? It made it all the way through the publishing house and into print.

 

[Enchantment_of_Nyx]

Seriously? The Octorok eyeball didn't clue him in? And what did he think lizalfos were? Or keese?

I don't see how he could make a mistake like that with his brain turned on. It gets more ridiculous when you consider the other people it got past. I don't know how many editors or second sets of eyes a book like that goes through, but at least one other person was asleep at the switch.

 

[Bramblethorn]

It's lazy and unprofessional and laughing it off as an oops is insulting.

It is that. Especially seeing the Irish Times try to spin it as some kind of literary cleverness.

 

[Rustyoznail]

It is that. Especially seeing the Irish Times try to spin it as some kind of literary cleverness.

All it would have taken was one more click...

 

[BelleCanzuto]

John Boyne is an Irish novelist, probably best known for "The Boy in the Striped Pyjamas". His latest novel "A Traveller at the Gates of Wisdom", another historical fiction piece, has a description of how to make red dye for a dress:

"...nightshade, sapphire, keese wing, the leaves of the silent princess plant, Octorok eyeball, swift violet, thistle and hightail lizard... spicy pepper, the tail of the red lizalfos and four Hylian shrooms".

If those ingredients look odd, it's because Boyne apparently googled "recipe for red dye" and used the first thing that came up without realising that it was a crafting recipe from a video game, "Breath of the Wild".

https://twitter.com/DanaSchwartzzz/status/1290099395220799488

The book also features "kimonos" in historical China, Spanish names in pre-Spanish South America, and so on. It's funny but also a little irritating - I see plenty of amateur authors here on Literotica making much more effort to get the details right.

I'm reading through that list, and thinking "that's obviously some kind of 'magic spell' version of a dye recipe." That an author didn't think critically for a few seconds realize that didn't make sense... I don't even know what to say.

I'm just seconding what EoN said about how many sets of eyes had to have taken a look at all that and let it slide.

 

[ChloeTzang]

It's lazy and unprofessional and laughing it off as an oops is insulting.

Totally agree. Just lazy.

 

[bushyTrail]

This matter prompts a question. Have you ever been in the position of saying, while reading a fiction book, "Hey, I just learned something!", assuming that the author had done their research?

 

[AlinaX]

Often.

I'm actually put off reading certain settings, esp. Greek mythology, simply because there's so much invention mixed in with actual mythology and it can be hard to identify which is which. Fiction about the wives of Henry VIII similarly.

But many authors really put in the time to do good research. Thomas Harris and Martin Cruz Smith, off the top of my head. I loved reading Bernard Cornwell's Sharpe series for its insight into Wellington's campaigns.

 

[davion2308]

Most Comments in a story

I wrote a story about historical re-enactors and I was pleasantly surprised to see a large number of comments after a few days of being published. The story was scoring 4.75 so I thought, "Awesome!"

Nope, not awesome. A number of people told me how wrong I was on the story's details and I got many more emails hitting me on "Well, the story is good but your details threw me off because that's not how it is..."

I fact-check the shit out of my stories nows. That won't happen again.

 

[LoquiSordidaAdMe]

Oh, that's upsetting. I taught myself literal rocket science and then had a physicist check my math to make sure a Lit story was scientifically accurate. And this guy is getting paid!? *smh*

 

[Enchantment_of_Nyx]

Oh, that's upsetting. I taught myself literal rocket science and then had a physicist check my math to make sure a Lit story was scientifically accurate. And this guy is getting paid!? *smh*

Right? We look up all sorts of stuff, knowing full well that nobody'll probably know the difference, but we want to get it right, and then this guy basically says the recipe for red dye is eye of newt.

 

[Thefireflies]

Oh, that's upsetting. I taught myself literal rocket science and then had a physicist check my math to make sure a Lit story was scientifically accurate. And this guy is getting paid!? *smh*

While playing around with the Mars tool in Google Earth one day, I thought I’d have a go at writing a short story set on Mars. I began writing something and quickly realised I needed to know more about the possibilities of setting up a colony on Mars in a not-too-distant future. What started out as a simple idea had me reading many fascinating articles about life support systems in space, oxygen generators, powering crewed rovers, travel times between Earth and Mars, chemistry, physics, geology and biology, amongst many other things. Didn’t take me long to realise I was out of my depth with the science part of the fiction, and there's a reason why people say 'it's not rocket science' when considering anything less that rocket science! Maybe I'll have a go at writing about brain surgery instead

 

[Blind_Justice]

Right? We look up all sorts of stuff, knowing full well that nobody'll probably know the difference, but we want to get it right, and then this guy basically says the recipe for red dye is eye of newt.

My lady love and I spend many a boring afternoon tearing into all the plot holes and contradictions J.K. Rowling has in her Harry Potter books. Makes me wonder if they ever got properly edited.

Wizards - and especially Mr. Weasley - have a hard time dealing with technology. Why else would they have all these places away from the modern world?

Strange though. The Weasleys have a car. The Hogwarts Express is obviously a bit more involved than a broomstick. There's the Knight Bus.
Mr. Weasley doesn't know how to operate matches - and the first thing aspiring wizards learn in their first transmutation lesson is turning needles into matches. The books are riddled with stuff like that. Any editor worth their paycheck should find and red pencil the shit out of that.

 

[SisterJezabel]

I can't watch medical dramas on telly because I'm always just rolling my eyes- you did chest compressions for 5 seconds, shocked them and then they woke up and are sitting up in bed and out the door in the next scene?

 

[Abbafan]

It is that. Especially seeing the Irish Times try to spin it as some kind of literary cleverness.

I'm not sure that is spin. I haven't read anything by this writer, but I know he's fairly successful. He's a historical novelist who's done over ten books. Suddenly he's making these kinds of mistakes? The inaccuracies and anachronisms you mentioned are so glaring and outrageous, I have to wonder if it wasn't done purposely. I mean, he didn't realize he was on a gaming website when he got that recipe? The names of those ingredients didn't tip him off? Or that people who net yet encountered someone from Spain would have Spanish names? And many more, it sounds like.

And not just the writer, but editors too. As a bestselling writer who's sold millions of books, his book is going to be professionally edited. They too would have had to miss this stuff.

I think this might have been done to make a point about how little such details really matter or as a joke of some kind. Were there other ridiculous inaccuracies? The name of the book is A Traveler of the Gates of Wisdom. I think its very possible there's some irony going on here that people are missing. I think I might have to take the extreme step of actually reading some of it. See for myself. Find out the context of all this. It wouldn't surprise me if the book makes it kind of clear what he's doing.

Edited to add: If it is a joke, I think he might regret it. Even if the book is very comical and ironical and actually some kind of send up historical fiction, this is the kind of thing people are going to want to believe. It's just more fun to think this is true, that a highly successful historical writer would be stupid enough to not realize he was reading about red dye on a gaming website and made a long list of equally ridiculous mistakes. This is the kind of thing that sticks.

Second edit: Can't read any of it because the books not out yet.

Third edit: Looking into it a little more, I see Boyne has admitted to the red dye error. Either he's leading people on and messing with them or really is not into doing research for his stories. There were many other such errors. Has he said anything about all the other goofs?

Interesting story, either way.

 

[glynndah]

This matter prompts a question. Have you ever been in the position of saying, while reading a fiction book, "Hey, I just learned something!", assuming that the author had done their research?

I once read a mystery novel where Lizzie Borden played a minor role. According to the author, she was well-versed in card tricks and used this skill to amuse and amaze other characters in the book. I've never been able to verify this, but it seemed quite plausible in the context of the story.

 

[Jada59]

Wow! That's bad.

 

[Damoiselle]

It's the most frustrating kind of lazy. He's putting his name on this work, and he doesn't even spare the effort to even look at the thing he's just pasting right into the text.

 

[Bramblethorn]

(note - Abbafan updated their post while I was writing this, my response is to an older version)

I'm not sure that is spin. I haven't read anything by this writer, but I know he's fairly successful. He's a historical novelist who's done over ten books. Suddenly he's making these kinds of mistakes?

Not suddenly, no. This isn't the first time Boyne has been called out for getting the history wrong: https://holocaustlearning.org.uk/latest/the-problem-with-the-boy-in-the-striped-pyjamas/

The inaccuracies and anachronisms you mentioned are so glaring and outrageous, I have to wonder if it wasn't done purposely. I mean, he didn't realize he was on a gaming website when he got that recipe? The names of those ingredients didn't tip him off?

By his own account, no, he did not. And he may not have even clicked through to the website - quite likely he just copied from the Google search summary.

Or that people who net yet encountered someone from Spain would have Spanish names? And many more, it sounds like.

I've met enough ignorant people to find it pretty easy to believe in that kind of ignorance, especially when the guy has already acknowledged the Zelda thing as a goof.

It's also possible that he realised pre-European Americans wouldn't have had European names, and didn't bother to do the research, but I'm not sure that explanation does him any more credit.

And not just the writer, but editors too. As a bestselling writer who's sold millions of books, his book is going to be professionally edited. They too would have had to miss this stuff.

It is indeed surprising, and yet by his own account it was a mistake and it got published, so evidently it did get past editing.

Sometimes editors are reluctant to challenge a big-name author. Sometimes stuff sneaks through the editing process - people accidentally go from the earlier draft or whatever. And sometimes the editor doesn't know either.

I think this might have been done to make a point about how little such details really matter or as a joke of some kind.

I think you're being very, very generous to an author who's already admitted to a massive good and been criticised for others. If he's determined to labour so hard to make himself look sloppy, the least we can do is honour his effort by going along with it.

I'd be more willing to buy the Sophisticated Literary Technique argument if it didn't always result in the same choices that would be made by a lazy author who's bad at research. If you want to make your story "universal" by fucking up historical names, surely a much more powerful way to do that would be to go the other way and give Aztec or Incan names to all the European characters. Much more noticeable to his predominantly English-language readership.

(But also an option that would require actual effort.)

Second edit: Can't read any of it because the books not out yet. I'm guessing the people rushing to bash this writer are not pro reviewers who got it early and read it.

I don't know where you're looking for it, but it appears to be available right now on Google Books, with publication date listed as July. https://play.google.com/store/books...urce=gbs_atb&pcampaignid=books_booksearch_atb

 

[Emirus]

I can't watch medical dramas on telly because I'm always just rolling my eyes- you did chest compressions for 5 seconds, shocked them and then they woke up and are sitting up in bed and out the door in the next scene?

My wife watches two tv medical dramas that are on in England. She’s never shown any interest in any from any other country and, in reality, doesn’t appear to be paying 100% attention to watching these two. She always seems to be reading at the same time but she doesn’t seem to miss anything. Weird, but she is a woman.

Her delight is not picking up on the errors, although she does, but telling me what the problem is before it’s diagnosed on screen. She’s also quick to tell me if the medication and treatment is correct. She’s been retired a few years now so perhaps it’s just a form of medical masochism or maybe she does it deliberately because she knows I’m not interested.

 

[Abbafan]

(note - Abbafan updated their post while I was writing this, my response is to an older version)



Not suddenly, no. This isn't the first time Boyne has been called out for getting the history wrong: https://holocaustlearning.org.uk/latest/the-problem-with-the-boy-in-the-striped-pyjamas/



By his own account, no, he did not. And he may not have even clicked through to the website - quite likely he just copied from the Google search summary.



I've met enough ignorant people to find it pretty easy to believe in that kind of ignorance, especially when the guy has already acknowledged the Zelda thing as a goof.

It's also possible that he realised pre-European Americans wouldn't have had European names, and didn't bother to do the research, but I'm not sure that explanation does him any more credit.



It is indeed surprising, and yet by his own account it was a mistake and it got published, so evidently it did get past editing.

Sometimes editors are reluctant to challenge a big-name author. Sometimes stuff sneaks through the editing process - people accidentally go from the earlier draft or whatever. And sometimes the editor doesn't know either.



I think you're being very, very generous to an author who's already admitted to a massive good and been criticised for others. If he's determined to labour so hard to make himself look sloppy, the least we can do is honour his effort by going along with it.

I'd be more willing to buy the Sophisticated Literary Technique argument if it didn't always result in the same choices that would be made by a lazy author who's bad at research. If you want to make your story "universal" by fucking up historical names, surely a much more powerful way to do that would be to go the other way and give Aztec or Incan names to all the European characters. Much more noticeable to his predominantly English-language readership.

(But also an option that would require actual effort.)



I don't know where you're looking for it, but it appears to be available right now on Google Books, with publication date listed as July. https://play.google.com/store/books...urce=gbs_atb&pcampaignid=books_booksearch_atb

Yeah, I updated it a little. You're quick! I thought it came off as too judgemental at times. I meant my post to be more in the spirit of holding off judgement on Boyd. Also, I realized the book might be out in other countries and though I'd get rid of a dumb mistake (doing a little research and correcting, unlike Boyd and his editors). I didn't think its out in the US until Aug 11th. Amazon lets you buy the paperback now, but it says you won't get it until the 18th. I don't think Google actually lets you buy it now, either. That link you gave me says it came out in July but you can't buy it. Anyway, not that important. It's out in other countries for certain. My mistake.

Between how laughable the mistakes were and the title of the book, I thought it might have been done as sort of a goof that people were taking at face value. Making it out to be some literary thing to make it more universal is pretty weak, I agree.

I guess the guy and his editors just didn't care at all. Even without doing research, common sense should tell you that South Americans wouldn't be using Spanish names before they even met any Spanish people!

Pretty bad! Maybe even a new low for carelessness, at least from such a well known writer.

 

[AlinaX]

My lady love and I spend many a boring afternoon tearing into all the plot holes and contradictions J.K. Rowling has in her Harry Potter books. Makes me wonder if they ever got properly edited.

The first two were obvious kids' books, drawing on a long tradition of similar fantasies and spicing it up with cutesy word play and humorous caricatures. I guess they were fine for what they were.

The third went darker and more adult, and actually wasn't a bad book. Probably the best written of the whole series, but already the problem of turning cutesy spells and caricatures into a serious adult story was visible.

And then it all went horribly wrong. Perhaps because the films were out and Rowling was suddenly rolling in it, but the books lost all editorial control, became self-indulgent bloatware, and all the shallow absurdity and problematic little Englander prejudices that could be forgiven in a kids' book became canon for a huge fan fiction universe.

They let her do it too. She was making them all rich. And she's not one to listen to criticism.

 

[Bramblethorn]

They let her do it too. She was making them all rich. And she's not one to listen to criticism.

I remember when a well-known author of vampire fiction decided her genius would no longer be shackled by the ignorance of mere mortal editors. It went poorly.