Request for Feedback: Dialogue and Pacing

[Enchantment_of_Nyx]

Hi, everyone. After years of skulking around, I've posted my first story:

After the Fall Ch 01
Non-Consent/Reluctance
https://literotica.com/s/after-the-fall-ch-01
Enchantment_of_Nyx

There were a couple of aspects of the writing that were harder than I expected. I'd love any sort of feedback about my story, but there are two areas with which I would especially appreciate critiques.

The first is dialogue. Specifically, I struggled with how often I need to include indicators about who is speaking, and to make them sound natural. I felt like I was always trying to find different ways to say a derivative of "he said." I've tried looking at other people's work, but I've focused so much on this issue that I feel like I've lost perspective. I would really appreciate fresh thoughts on it.

The second is pacing. I'm not sure if the level of detail I include is a good thing or a bad thing. There are times I write paragraphs of explanation about how something took place, for example, and then realize I need to delete them because nobody would care about those details. I have some concern that I may still have too much detail. It's hard for me to judge because I'm the kind of reader who wonders things like, "What happened to that guy's pants?" or "How did they get from the lobby to the balcony?" It would be helpful to get feedback on whether I'm bogging down the action, or if the detail enhances the story.

As I said, any other type of feedback is welcome. Thank you!

Enchantment_of_Nyx
After The Fall, Ch. 01
https://literotica.com/s/after-the-fall-ch-01

 

[ElectricBlue]

The first is dialogue. Specifically, I struggled with how often I need to include indicators about who is speaking, and to make them sound natural. I felt like I was always trying to find different ways to say a derivative of "he said." I've tried looking at other people's work, but I've focused so much on this issue that I feel like I've lost perspective. I would really appreciate fresh thoughts on it.

My preference is to use the "invisible" he said she said he replied she added type speech tags - that is, the minimalist ones that the eye hardly sees but subconsciously provide clarity as to who is speaking, but only when it's necessary to keep tabs on who is saying what.

As soon as a writer deliberately avoids the standard speech tags and uses "descriptors," as you did in the first sections with dialogue, I find it becomes obtrusive very quickly because it's too self-conscious, too mannered. It's as if the writer doesn't trust their dialogue to portray mood, or even more so, doesn't trust the reader to figure out the nuance. If writing needs signposts everywhere, "stating" how it must be read, then for me at least, that's no different to unnecessary datadumps or backfills. You go borderline close on that, too, for my taste.

I note also that you have a tendency to bury your dialogue inside longer narrative paragraphs. You might find your dilemma easier to solve if you use para breaks for dialogue more than you do. Doing it that way can reduce the need for speech tags a lot, because the back and forth is visually shown. In a similar thread a few months ago, I counted the number of times I actually used a speech tag of any sort with dialogue. Only one in ten elements of dialogue were tagged, the other ninety percent relied on context.

It's definitely a question of individual style, but I'd say, as soon as you start questioning yourself (as you have), then listen to yourself. It's the old chestnut, if it looks wrong it probably is. It might not be, but it probably will be. In a nutshell, trust your gut instinct, and trust your readers more. Good readers are clever and can figure out most things without bloody great signs. Other readers, of course, want everything spelt out in detail, so you have to figure out who you're writing for.

 

[Jada59]

Hmmm... I tried to read it but got "Bad Gateway (502)".

 

[yukonnights]

I read up to the last page and on page 7 got an "internal server problem" notice and a white screen?

Other than this, I think you did a great job on this story. I suspect some people may not care for the level of detail you included, but in my opinion you did it well. I suspect as the action picks up and the characters & setting are established the pace will pick up. It's definitely not 'stroker fodder', but you can't write to please everyone. The story premise is interesting and the plot so far is engaging and making me want to see where it goes. I would have given it a 5 star rating if I could have gotten to the end.

ElectricBlue's comments are good and I agree with them. But what you did is fine too. These are nuances of different styles and as always it's best to take whatever we say that works and just do your thing.

EDIT: I see Jada had a similar problem about the same time I clicked onto the last page. It'll probably be fixed by the time you read this.

 

[Enchantment_of_Nyx]

As soon as a writer deliberately avoids the standard speech tags and uses "descriptors," as you did in the first sections with dialogue, I find it becomes obtrusive very quickly because it's too self-conscious, too mannered.

That's good advice. I could cut my adverb use by 90 percent and still have too many. (And that's after I already several rounds of pruning.) I think it was primarily an ill-advised effort to add some variety to the "he saids." Burying the dialogue inside of narratives, which you pointed out, was also an effort to avoid the "he saids" by keeping dialogue in a paragraph that made it obvious who the speaker is.

I seem to be taking one problem and making it into several new problems. Maybe the answer is to trust the reader more often to figure out who is saying what. I've been frustrated when I read stories where I lose track of which character is speaking, and perhaps I'm going too far out of my way to avoid that. I'll try to use fewer tags.

There's one specific situation that really perplexes me, though. When two characters are discussing something, an apple for example, it's not necessarily obvious from the content of the dialog which character is making a comment. (In that example, either character might say that the apple is red.) In those situations, the reader has to keep track of whose turn it is to speak, based on the assumption that the speakers alternate. Do you have any suggestions for handling multi-paragraph blocks of dialogue by a single character? I'm trying to describe something like this:

John: [Paragraph about the apple]
John: [Another paragraph about the apparently fascinating apple]
Jane: [Comment about the amazing apple]
John: [John is still yakking about the d**** apple]

If you have any suggestions about that situations (besides taking the fruit away from the apple-obsessed character), I'd really appreciate it. I don't mean to suggest that's the only area where I need to dispense with the tags, but it's where I'm at the greatest loss.

Thank you very much for taking a look at the story and for your suggestions. I will certainly take them to heart.

 

[Enchantment_of_Nyx]

I read up to the last page and on page 7 got an "internal server problem" notice and a white screen?

Other than this, I think you did a great job on this story. I suspect some people may not care for the level of detail you included, but in my opinion you did it well. I suspect as the action picks up and the characters & setting are established the pace will pick up. It's definitely not 'stroker fodder', but you can't write to please everyone. The story premise is interesting and the plot so far is engaging and making me want to see where it goes. I would have given it a 5 star rating if I could have gotten to the end.

ElectricBlue's comments are good and I agree with them. But what you did is fine too. These are nuances of different styles and as always it's best to take whatever we say that works and just do your thing.

EDIT: I see Jada had a similar problem about the same time I clicked onto the last page. It'll probably be fixed by the time you read this.

Thank you so much for the encouragement. It's difficult seeing the now-glaringly obvious mistakes I made that eluded me even after what must have been the 20th read-through. So, it really helps to hear that someone enjoyed it. It is my goal to speed up the pace and to have shorter chapters. I didn't want to end the first chapter without any payoff, but they just refused to jump in the sack any sooner. (Well, Mariah refused. Michael was ready on page 1.) As you say, having the characters and setting established will allow me to move more easily going forward.

I appreciated ElectricBlue's advice. I'm convinced I need to eliminate as many of the dialogue tags as I can. I think I've gotten so hung up on them that I've created bigger problems for myself.

Thank you again for your time, your suggestions, and your encouragement.

Page 7 does seem to be fixed now.

 

[Enchantment_of_Nyx]

Hmmm... I tried to read it but got "Bad Gateway (502)".

Thanks for trying, Jada! It seems to be working again now, if you're still willing to give it a look.

https://www.literotica.com/s/after-the-fall-ch-01

 

[LWulf]

I actually read YukonNights' review which prompted me to start reading without ever looking at the OP's post. I actually LOVE detailed stories, and saw the "Bad Gateway" error prior to signing in to the forum. I clicked the link wondering if the server was still down, and it wasn't.
(To those that aren't aware, the forum and stories are on separate servers, so it's possible the forum will be available while stories are not, or vice versa)

With the first paragraph, I wasn't happy. I might be wrong on this; tags of who said what can be removed, but removing tags from dialog-less sentences seems stunted. I also started to get confused about some of the proceedings. He likes her, everybody likes her, she frowns, so... he chuckles???
This is one reason why I don't normally go by another person's recommendations.

I also wanted to see some of the paragraphs broken up into smaller paragraphs. The first paragraph seemed half first person observation, and half exposition. Perhaps because they are tag-less, dialog-less exposition?

"...with fringe of dark lashes."
'...with a fringe of dark lashes,' or '...fringed in dark lashes,' but it seems stunted otherwise.

The third paragraph is, again, half first person observation, half exposition.

The fourth paragraph is one part exposition, one part dialog, and one part character reaction to the dialog, and this exchange goes around twice. Breaking it apart, would make it read easier.

Fifth paragraph and there's more skipping back and forth between characters in the same paragraph. Is it just Laurel's rules to break this sort of paragraph apart, or good grammar? It always made sense to me, without questioning it. It reads easier when it's broken apart. I won't keep harping on the same topic.

Okay, the "compound" has hidden camera(s), which is how Michael sees what's going on. He couldn't zoom in on Mariah's face until she turned into the wind, so not a lot of cameras, or not cameras from every angle. The walls and gate are "solid" probably meaning they aren't chain link, as "people outside can't see, so the hidden camera can't be inside the compound, or it's set higher than the wall. In either event, Michael, probably can't see from the outside; in.
So when the mayor is walking up to Mariah, Mariah, probably has her back to the compound. So, how is Michael suddenly omni-cognizant during Mariah and the mayor's dialogue? I guess the hidden microphones were also neglected to be mentioned.

Okay, thoughts so far. Mariah is outside the compound, or the mayor wouldn't see her (as per that detail). Michael is in the compound, and presumably Mariah is protesting those inside. The "Mayor" is against Mariah, so he must be against the protest. Thereby, you'd think Michael should be on the Mayor's side. Why does it seem like there are three factions instead, and nobody likes one another, and none of this being esposized?

Aha, now we find there was an open radio channel inside the guardhouse after an altercation started and he opened a radio channel to the guards to break it up and that's how he can now hear what is going on between Mariah and the guards.

"Bring her to house."
Awkward phrase, but it's dialogue, so... style? Is this like the phrase "taken to ground"?

Ezra the guard is mentioned, then "Nate" is in dialog. Who is Nate? Is "Nate" Ezra's nickname, or given name? Why wasn't Nate mentioned before, and since Ezra brought her in, why isn't HE on the radio with "the boss"?

He has been watching her around town via cameras...
reads the title again "After the fall"
Okay, she wasn't protesting, this is post-apocalyptic. Less and less motivated to finish this...

I seriously have to find out how soft breaks are supposed to be done, between POV change, and scenes... You obviously didn't use a hard break * * * and my mind is still whirling from the scene change.

I don't think I can finish this. Sorry. Not the sort of subject matter that I cherish at the moment/these days.

 

[ElectricBlue]

There's one specific situation that really perplexes me, though. When two characters are discussing something, an apple for example, it's not necessarily obvious from the content of the dialog which character is making a comment. (In that example, either character might say that the apple is red.) In those situations, the reader has to keep track of whose turn it is to speak, based on the assumption that the speakers alternate. Do you have any suggestions for handling multi-paragraph blocks of dialogue by a single character? I'm trying to describe something like this:

John: [Paragraph about the apple]
John: [Another paragraph about the apparently fascinating apple]
Jane: [Comment about the amazing apple]
John: [John is still yakking about the d**** apple]

In that case, I'd tend to do something like this:

"Hey, Adam, did you hear the story about the apple?" Eve asked.

"No. How does that one go?" [You don't need to tag this at all, because it's obviously Adam replying.]

"There's this garden," Eve said, playing with her long dark hair, "and a tree." She paused, and saw a snake pass by. "I'm tempted to eat it, but I dare not."

The snake coiled around her feet, and Eve felt a new tingling deep in her belly that she'd never felt before.

"The apple, it's lustrous and red, and I'm tempted... so very much." [You don't need a tag, coz context makes it clear.]

Adam rubbed his side. It was still tender.


Context and what's in the dialogue is usually enough, I find. Where there's a lot of back and forth, I tend to drop in a cue (by way of a tag or making it clear from the narrative) maybe every fourth or fifth exchange. It comes down to how much characterisation you weave into what the characters are saying, which later on in the story you can rely on to identify who is who.

That's how I do it anyway - maybe some useful ideas for you?

 

[LWulf]

In that case, I'd tend to do something like this:

"Hey, Adam, did you hear the story about the apple?" Eve asked.

"No. How does that one go?" [You don't need to tag this at all, because it's obviously Adam replying.]
...

By extension, you could further remove all tags by:

"Hey, Adam, did you hear the story about the apple?"

"No, Eve, how does that one go?"

Just stating the obvious

 

[LWulf]

I'd also like to point out that, isn't it handy that everyone was gathered around the gate and near the guardhouse door ...all of which is hidden.

You might reason, that the gate has heavy traffic (prior to finished construction, if not afterwards) and therefore have a path leading up to a wall, indicating there is a gate, but if that's the case, why bother having the gate hidden?

 

[Jada59]

I found a couple of errors:

This sentence makes no sense.

"His men were remained calm."

You left off an "s" here.

All the vehicle, even the golf carts, were black."

But mostly there were many unknowns that left me baffled.

Why were all the people at the gate?

How could Michael have all of those things at the compound if nobody ever left?

The way you described the food made it sound like they were gathering it from the wild, and yet there was processed food. Pasta and liquor.

Why had Michael been watching her? It appears that he had a crush on her and yet it reads like he was just some kind of creepy stalker.

She doesn't know him at all and yet she agrees to go along with him. That makes no sense to me. The way you paint her character, she is not compliant and yet she suddenly becomes compliant.

The last part is a personal thing. There were far too many details for me. When you described the dining room and the bathroom. I was picturing these rooms in my mind and so involved with that, I found it hard to get back to the story. I also found it very wordy. I guess I'm more of a "fapping fodder" type person.

It wasn't necessarily badly written. Just not my thing.

 

[Enchantment_of_Nyx]

[

I found a couple of errors:

This sentence makes no sense.

"His men were remained calm."

You left off an "s" here.

All the vehicle, even the golf carts, were black."

But mostly there were many unknowns that left me baffled.

Why were all the people at the gate?

How could Michael have all of those things at the compound if nobody ever left?

The way you described the food made it sound like they were gathering it from the wild, and yet there was processed food. Pasta and liquor.

Why had Michael been watching her? It appears that he had a crush on her and yet it reads like he was just some kind of creepy stalker.

She doesn't know him at all and yet she agrees to go along with him. That makes no sense to me. The way you paint her character, she is not compliant and yet she suddenly becomes compliant.

The last part is a personal thing. There were far too many details for me. When you described the dining room and the bathroom. I was picturing these rooms in my mind and so involved with that, I found it hard to get back to the story. I also found it very wordy. I guess I'm more of a "fapping fodder" type person.

It wasn't necessarily badly written. Just not my thing.

Thank you for reading it and letting me know. I'm cringing over the typos. "His men were remained calm" should have read, "his men were professionals and remained calm." It must have gotten deleted accidentally during my many rounds of editing. I really wish there was a way to get back into the story to fix that type of mistake.

The unknowns you mentioned are something I'm trying to balance. I think some of them were answered after I lost your interest. There is a lot to tell in this story, and I can't tell it all at once. I'm working on how to bring everything in at the right time. Perhaps I needed better indications of why they were at the gate. The story says, "That kissable little mouth of hers was riling the crowd, urging them to force open the gate to the compound." Maybe the problem was that there wasn't an explanation of why they wanted to force open the gate?

Michael tries to explain his creepy stalker ways on page 2. ("As I told you earlier, I've watched you for years. Now that I'm saying it out loud, I realize how creepy that sounds. I didn't mean to stalk you. I was still in college when my father called me home and locked down the compound. I was isolated, anxious about what was going on outside, and lonely. I watched everyone in town, just like a person might people-watch at a street cafe. Soon, I found myself looking for you in the camera feeds.")

He doesn't offer a great justification for it because there isn't one. He's a a deeply flawed character. I hope that he's ultimately going to be a sympathetic character, but he's selfish and obsessive, and he finds ways to excuse doing whatever it takes to get what he wants. If he were a gentleman, this would be in a different story category. Do you think it would have been helpful to include some self-doubt from Michael about his habitual spying?

I think the unknowns fall into two categories. Some are unknown because Mariah doesn't know them. Even though the story is told in the third-person with sort of an omniscient perspective, I still needed a path through the story, and that is largely dependent on what Mariah knows and sees. If she doesn't know things yet, we don't either, unless it is revealed in another character's thoughts.

Some of the unknowns are plot points. Mariah addresses one of the ones you mentioned on page 5. ("Paula, were did all these clothes come from? Or the bath products? Or the ingredients Marcus uses? Where does any of this stuff come from?" and to Marcus, "I wanted to ask about that. Where does all this stuff come from? It's like you raided a department store, except the department stores have been empty for years. Nobody can get these sorts of things.")

How the things get into the compound is a similar issue. Mariah points it out herself,and Michael is evasive. (Mariah looked incredulous. “You’re telling me that for the last ten years, nobody has come or gone from this compound?” // Michael didn’t know how to answer that without disclosing information he was not ready to give her. “I’m saying the gate stayed closed.”) The literal "how" is suggested when Mariah leaves the compound and returns with the guards. The underground tunnel they drove through is the same way the goods came in. Of course, that doesn't answer the real question I think you're raising, which is how Michael's getting his hands on all that stuff.

I know that what you identified was just an example. There are other things that appear to be incongruous things until they are explained in the story. The story just can't explain them all at the same time. Chapter 1 was already about twice as long as I would have liked. Probably more importantly, Mariah acts as she does because of what she knows at the time. If I let her know too much too soon, she wouldn't make the same choices. Balancing the unknowns with clear plot progression was something I considered, and am still considering. I think that for you, that balance was off. I'm hoping other people's feedback will help me gauge it correctly.

Mariah's reasoning for her sudden compliance is explained near the end of page 3. He hasn't seduced her. She is attracted to him, but she's making a decision to comply because Michael is offering her something that is too important for her to turn away from. That's why she spends some time scheming on page 3 about how to minimize the risk of his hold over her.

I agree that it's not an ideal presentation of her motivation. I found motivation very difficult to address in this context without giving longer internal monologues than I already did. I would have preferred to illustrate it through dialogue, but I couldn't figure out how to do that since Michael's the only other person she could talk to at this point, and she's trying to keep him from knowing what she's thinking.

If you have any thoughts on that, I'd be happy to hear them, because similar issues arise in other chapters. Michael does things further on in the story that Mariah will not accept, yet for the story to progress, she has to. At those points, I have to show her motivation for going along with the program. I would prefer to find a way to communicate it other than her internal monologue, but so far, I haven't been able to come up with anything.

You're right. It's not pure fapping fodder. One of the reasons Chapter 1 was so long was because I didn't want to end it until I reached a sexual encounter between Mariah and Michael. Chapter 2 will get more directly to the juicy bits because the framework is established now, but the story will remain plot-heavy. As you suggest, that type of story isn't for everyone.

I really appreciate the time you took to offer your thoughts on this. You hit on points about which I'd hoped to get readers' perspectives so that I can fine-tune my balance, especially with the level of detail. Before publication, I questioned whether things like the room descriptions were too much. It sounds like they were too much for you, and I tend to agree. I just wasn't sure without having feedback. That's why it's valuable to me to hear what bugged you about it.

Thanks again!

 

[Enchantment_of_Nyx]

I don't think I can finish this. Sorry. Not the sort of subject matter that I cherish at the moment/these days.

I'm sorry you didn't enjoy the story. Thank you for taking the time to give it a try, though.

 

[ElectricBlue]

By extension, you could further remove all tags by:

"Hey, Adam, did you hear the story about the apple?"

"No, Eve, how does that one go?"

Just stating the obvious

Except the use of Eve's name in the dialogue then seems forced and unnatural. People don't usually talk that way, replying to a name with the other person's name. It's always a balance between clarity and artifice.

 

[Enchantment_of_Nyx]

In that case, I'd tend to do something like this:

"Hey, Adam, did you hear the story about the apple?" Eve asked.

"No. How does that one go?" [You don't need to tag this at all, because it's obviously Adam replying.]

"There's this garden," Eve said, playing with her long dark hair, "and a tree." She paused, and saw a snake pass by. "I'm tempted to eat it, but I dare not."

The snake coiled around her feet, and Eve felt a new tingling deep in her belly that she'd never felt before.

"The apple, it's lustrous and red, and I'm tempted... so very much." [You don't need a tag, coz context makes it clear.]

Adam rubbed his side. It was still tender.


Context and what's in the dialogue is usually enough, I find. Where there's a lot of back and forth, I tend to drop in a cue (by way of a tag or making it clear from the narrative) maybe every fourth or fifth exchange. It comes down to how much characterisation you weave into what the characters are saying, which later on in the story you can rely on to identify who is who.

That's how I do it anyway - maybe some useful ideas for you?

Yes, I see what you mean. Even if it's not clear from the context who the speakers are, I don't need tags for each line. I probably need to make sure that I use them whenever a character has two dialog paragraphs in a row where the attribution isn't clear from context.

If, using your example, these were the lines:

"There's this garden," Eve said, playing with her long dark hair, "and a tree." She paused, and saw a snake pass by. "I'm tempted to eat it, but I dare not."

The snake coiled around her feet, and Eve felt a new tingling deep in her belly that she'd never felt before.

"Is that a snake?"


I'd need to use some indication like, "Adam, is that a snake?" or, "Eve pointed to the coil at her feet. 'Is that a snake?'"

 

[yukonnights]

Except the use of Eve's name in the dialogue then seems forced and unnatural. People don't usually talk that way, replying to a name with the other person's name. It's always a balance between clarity and artifice.

This is to some extent true. That said, the constant; "dialogue blah blah," he said. "more dialogue blah blah," she said — is also forced and an artifice. We think we trick the reader into not noticing they just left the action and life of the story and are now hearing me tell them something from outside the story. It is claimed that 'the reader doesn't even notice these', but that is not true. It's just common and more familiar. So long as it is clear who is talking one way works as well as the other IMO.

As is pretty well known, I get really bored with a "told tale". And that, to me, is what it ends up being with all the "X said". It is telling instead of showing in a glaring but accepted way.

So, we're gonna have to identify the speaker. Neither tool is like normal speech, so we pick our poison and see how it goes. Personally, I have had positive response to no to minimal speech tags. However, it can unravel pretty quickly if there are numerous characters. With a male/female it's easier that male/male or female/female. There are also pet names and endearments that can be used instead of proper names.

I'm just gonna add; I think some folks didn't read the story closely. It was clear to me why the people were at the gate It was clear where the food and merchandise came from It was clear what motivated the male protagonist to do what he did

 

[yukonnights]

"Adam, did you hear the story about the apple?"

"Duh? We were sitting together when He gave us the warning Eve."

"Yeah, I know. But the Snake told me that story isn't true. He told me it is the best fruit in the garden."

"Hmm, that ole serpent whispered the same to me. But I don't know …?"

"Come over here and smell of it Babe, pretty please."

My interest in the apple fades as she turns her back to me. Her soft round bottom is way more tempting than that apple — I'll eat anything to make her happy."

 

[ElectricBlue]

I'd need to use some indication like, "Adam, is that a snake?" or, "Eve pointed to the coil at her feet. 'Is that a snake?'"

I don't think so. At this point it's all about Eve and the snake, so I think it follows that it's still Eve talking, without needing an attribute (except of course she doesn't know what a snake is, neither the beast nor its name). It would become clear from the next paragraph whether or not Adam is getting involved.

"Look what God gave me," Adam replied, looking down for the first time.

"My sweet Lord," Eve sighed. "So many choices."

Thus introducing ambiguity as well as an inflection which tells us more about Eve. Who is she addressing now? You really don't need to spell everything out - let the reader actively engage .

 

[RandyD1369]

"I'm cringing over the typos. "His men were remained calm" should have read, "his men were professionals and remained calm." It must have gotten deleted accidentally during my many rounds of editing. I really wish there was a way to get back into the story to fix that type of mistake."

Actually, there is a way, but it's a pain in the butt. First, copy the text of the entire story. Then paste it into a draft in your "new story" file. You might also want to print the whole thing so you can edit with red pen/pencil. Then make any corrections that are needed. After you've gotten every error fixed, ask a friend/trusted colleague to give it another go through. Fix those errors, too. When you're content with the edited result, re-submit it with the original title as a 'new story"--but put a note in the NOTES box saying this is an EDITED version to replace the original. Keep in mind, you're replacing the WHOLE STORY, not just the edits.

Submit it. It will take a little longer (a few days) to get the edited version up as it will have a lower priority than new stories, but Laurel can and will substitute the newer version without changing the reads, scores, or favorites status. No one will ever know it's been done but you and the original readers. This does work--I've done it with two of my own stories (An Idol Hour and Vacation Heat).

My Stories https://www.literotica.com/stories/memberpage.php?uid=5198496&page=submissions

 

[Enchantment_of_Nyx]

Actually, there is a way, but it's a pain in the butt. First, copy the text of the entire story. Then paste it into a draft in your "new story" file. You might also want to print the whole thing so you can edit with red pen/pencil. Then make any corrections that are needed. After you've gotten every error fixed, ask a friend/trusted colleague to give it another go through. Fix those errors, too. When you're content with the edited result, re-submit it with the original title as a 'new story"--but put a note in the NOTES box saying this is an EDITED version to replace the original. Keep in mind, you're replacing the WHOLE STORY, not just the edits.

Thank you! I will submit a corrected version. I hadn't thought about printing it out to proofread, but a different format might help me see things I hadn't noticed. One of my biggest proofreading problems is that I just keep reading what I meant to write rather than what's on the page. For example, I'd keep reading, "the dog chased cat," as "the dog chased the cat." I don't know how to keep my brain from filling in words that aren't really there.

I did ask one of Lit's volunteer editors to review it after I'd made several revisions, and he caught several things in addition to his thoughts on the storytelling. I edited it again several more times and caught even more errors. I even left a week between two proof-readings in an effort to view it afresh, but that wasn't effective for me.

Since the story was published, I caught additional errors in addition to those pointed out here. I think it was because I was reading it through a new lens, trying to apply the critiques made here. I'm not sure how to replicate that.

I'm very happy there's a way to fix those things. Thank you very much for letting me know!

 

[yukonnights]

Thank you! I will submit a corrected version. I hadn't thought about printing it out to proofread, but a different format might help me see things I hadn't noticed. One of my biggest proofreading problems is that I just keep reading what I meant to write rather than what's on the page. For example, I'd keep reading, "the dog chased cat," as "the dog chased the cat." I don't know how to keep my brain from filling in words that aren't really there.

I did ask one of Lit's volunteer editors to review it after I'd made several revisions, and he caught several things in addition to his thoughts on the storytelling. I edited it again several more times and caught even more errors. I even left a week between two proof-readings in an effort to view it afresh, but that wasn't effective for me.

Since the story was published, I caught additional errors in addition to those pointed out here. I think it was because I was reading it through a new lens, trying to apply the critiques made here. I'm not sure how to replicate that.

I'm very happy there's a way to fix those things. Thank you very much for letting me know!

You're doing everything possible to make it a clean story. Most of us do. And most of us stumble over the exact same things you do. It's almost impossible to edit a story to perfection. If it makes you feel any better, which it won't, I didn't stumble on anything that slipped by your edits. The story was interesting enough to keep me happy.

One other little self-editing tool; If you can, have your computer read the story to you. You will hear the mistakes if it's someone else's voice — even a funky digital one. Or just read out loud to yourself. Probably best to have a printed copy to follow along with so you can highlight the things you want to fix.

 

[Enchantment_of_Nyx]

You're doing everything possible to make it a clean story. Most of us do. And most of us stumble over the exact same things you do. It's almost impossible to edit a story to perfection. If it makes you feel any better, which it won't, I didn't stumble on anything that slipped by your edits. The story was interesting enough to keep me happy.

One other little self-editing tool; If you can, have your computer read the story to you. You will hear the mistakes if it's someone else's voice — even a funky digital one. Or just read out loud to yourself. Probably best to have a printed copy to follow along with so you can highlight the things you want to fix.

Actually, it makes me a feel a lot better that my errors weren't hanging out all over the place. I think if you enjoy the story, they don't jump out as much. That's how it is for me, anyway.

You're absolutely right about reading it out loud. That will work. I've noticed before in my professional (non-fiction) writing that reading something to someone else sometimes makes me realize something just doesn't sound right. I'm too happy you reminded me of this to even be upset I had forgotten it.

Thank you!

 

[ElectricBlue]

Thank you! I will submit a corrected version. I hadn't thought about printing it out to proofread, but a different format might help me see things I hadn't noticed. One of my biggest proofreading problems is that I just keep reading what I meant to write rather than what's on the page. For example, I'd keep reading, "the dog chased cat," as "the dog chased the cat." I don't know how to keep my brain from filling in words that aren't really there.

I self-edit everything of mine now and over time have developed several techniques that seem to work. Some of these might help:

Once you've finished drafting, change the font and the font size. The different look and the changes in line roll can be enough to break what your mind thinks it's seeing. Make a big change in font size, say from 11 to 14.

Edit in a font with serifs, like Times New Roman - there's a reason it's used so much in print, seriffed fonts are much easier to read.

I've not tried changing colours, but I expect that would work well. The thing is to change what the eye sees, not what the mind thinks is there.

Keep lists (either in your head or a kept copy) of writing tics you know you have. I used to annoyingly use "and then" far too often, so now I word search for that combination and edit. Similarly, I used "just" too often. Same thing, word search, eliminate. Over time you'll spot your bad habits and you'll then start to eliminate them.

Look hard for repeated words close together. Don't repeat words accidentally, do so for effect, deliberately.

If you write sex scenes when you're aroused, for everyone's sake, edit when you're calm. You can guarantee those scenes will be riddled with silly typos and, often, tense shifts. I sometimes find I shift to present tense when I'm writing intense sex scenes. Fine to get the raw intensity, but edit for tense consistency.

I do a rolling edit. Before I write a new bit, I'll re-read the last thousand words or so, fixing problems, spotting the common errors. That way, you not only guarantee better continuity, but you also keep an eye on the pace and flow of your content. Do that progressively, tidying up as you go. I usually write quite long stories 20k - 50k is common, over several weeks. But I only read the whole thing through two or three times right at the end.

I'm fortunate in that my raw text is usually about 95% solid, and I'm not one of those writers who endlessly scrub and rework their text. I'm unusual I think, writing as I do. My edits are typos, single words, occasionally a sentence or two. Rarely do I futz with paragraphs.

These techniques work for me, but might not work for you. One piece of advice, though. You will never get 100% perfect copy, it's just about impossible. If your typos are silly and infrequent, readers will overlook the occasional mistake (except the twat who found three spelling mistakes in a thirty thousand word story and thought he'd tell me). But if every sentence has something wrong with it, readers will let writers know, and they really must do something about it.

You'll improve far quicker as a writer if you concentrate on making your next story better. Futzing with your last one, unless it's diabolically bad, is a waste of time, I reckon. It really is a case of, "Get it right before you submit."

 

[gordo12]

Do you have any suggestions for handling multi-paragraph blocks of dialogue by a single character? I'm trying to describe something like this:

John: [Paragraph about the apple]
John: [Another paragraph about the apparently fascinating apple]
Jane: [Comment about the amazing apple]
John: [John is still yakking about the d**** apple]

This is the format for multi paragraph dialogue by a single character: with explanations in brackets.

“Flo Johnson will be at the party, and I want you to stick to her like flies on flypaper. Don't let her out of your sight. [This isn't the only paragraph, so there's no concluding quote mark here.]

“Her sister will probably be there, too. Our best information says she doesn't know about any of the caper, but I've put Julian on her anyway, just in case. [This isn't the last paragraph either, so it likewise doesn't get a closing mark. Opening mark, yes—closing mark, no.]

“I want you to remember that your job here is to observe and report. No matter what happens, you're to take no action. Do all of you understand that?” [This is the final paragraph, so it does take a closing mark.]

I took this example from https://lasteditorstanding.blogspot.com/2016/08/multiple-paragraphs-in-single-instance.html but there are plenty of internet articles on it. I had the same question a month or so ago.

So simple: Open each paragraph of M/P dialogue with quotation marks. Only close off the LAST paragraph with quotation marks.

When Jane speaks that disrupts the multi-paragraph dialogue and you are back to ordinary dialogue tags.