Republicans want your sons and daughters to get shot and blown up

[shereads]

but not because they were drafted. It should be a voluntary thing. Another good reason to underfund public education and keep the minimum wage so low that two working parents earn less than the average monthly rent on a one-bedroom apartment in America's thirty largest cities. Between a promising future as a fry cook at Burger Chef and a stint in America's All-Volunteer Army, it's a no-brainer.

You ass.

Maybe if Dick Cheney and George W. Bush and Donald Rumsfeld had been coerced into combat duty in Vietnam, they wouldn't have been so goddam trigger happy and we wouldn't now be revoking the Christmas leave of reserve troops to fuel the body count in Iraq.

 

[Roxanne Appleby]

but not because they were drafted. It should be a voluntary thing. Another good reason to underfund public education and keep the minimum wage so low that two working parents earn less than the average monthly rent on a one-bedroom apartment in America's thirty largest cities.

You ass.

What is sad is that you probably actually believe that there are really a lot of families in which two parents have been in the workforce for years and are only getting minimum wage. Of course only a small percentage of minimum wage workers belong to households with income that is less than the poverty level. I wouldn't be surprised if there is not one single household in America that fits the caricature you've suggested, which is two parents of an 18-year-old, both of whom have been continuously employed and never earned more than minimum wage. If you think this is an accurate description of America, then no wonder you frequently sound like you hate this country and think its economic system is evil.

 

[shereads]

Here's a sure-fire way to support an all-volunteer military: every healthy American above the age of consent who thought the Iraq war was a good idea, volunteer.

 

[sethp]

Nancy Pelosi

Would look good ina bikini???

 

[shereads]

What is sad is that you probably actually believe that there are really a lot of families in which two parents have been in the workforce for years and are only getting minimum wage. Of course only a small percentage of minimum wage workers belong to households with income that is less than the poverty level. I wouldn't be surprised if there is not one single household in America that fits the caricature you've suggested, which is two parents of an 18-year-old, both of whom have been continuously employed and never earned more than minimum wage. If you think this is an accurate description of America, then no wonder you frequently sound like you hate this country and think its economic system is evil.

I hate the part of this country that accuses other people of hating this country because they don't share your march-in-lockstep mentality.

Be careful over there, okay? Snazzy uniform.

 

[Roxanne Appleby]

I hate the part of this country that accuses other people of hating this country because they don't share your march-in-lockstep mentality.

Be careful over there, okay? Snazzy uniform.

I would too if I were you. But I didn't do what you say here. I said "you frequently sound like you hate this country." You do sound that way, and it's because you present descriptions of it that are completely unbalanced and bear no resemblence to reality. If you don't like sounding like you hate this country then don't draw caricatures and call them portraits.

PS. I am generally not this adversarial in a thread, but when the first post ends, "you ass," and you accuse anyone who disagrees with you with "marching in lock step-mentality," that's pretty much the way it's going to go.

 

[shereads]

For anyone who claims they'd be 'surprised' that working families living in poverty:

Hunger and the Working Poor

Chicago Tribune - husband, wife both work, in line at food bank

Another surprise:

"Working Class War"

Race and ethnicity, war casualties

 

[JamesSD]

I'm a Democrat.

I support an all volunteer military.

 

[ungenderless]

I can't speak for any political agenda, and I definitely can't give an accurate description for America, but "two working parents earning less than the average monthly rent on a one-bedroom apartment" pretty much sums it up in my neck of the woods. Most of my friends, co-workers, etc. all need two jobs one way or the other. Both parents have to work, period. Sometimes people take on two jobs just to make ends meet. It may not be this way everywhere in America; I wouldn't know. All I know is what I seen around me.

 

[S-Des]

What is sad is that you probably actually believe that there are really a lot of families in which two parents have been in the workforce for years and are only getting minimum wage. Of course only a small percentage of minimum wage workers belong to households with income that is less than the poverty level. I wouldn't be surprised if there is not one single household in America that fits the caricature you've suggested, which is two parents of an 18-year-old, both of whom have been continuously employed and never earned more than minimum wage. If you think this is an accurate description of America, then no wonder you frequently sound like you hate this country and think its economic system is evil.

Perfectly said. My local Steak & Shake is hiring. It starts at $7/hr. If you're not a complete fuck-up (and can speak any english at all), you get regular promotions (and there are partial benefits). There is also shift differential if you'd like to work a less desirable shift. I've never once had to work for minimum wage at any job I've ever had (pizza delivery averaged out to almost $10/hr...and that was 20 years ago). Some people are forced to take what they can get, but I can point you at landscaping jobs that pay better than $10/hr cash that work all summer long.

I also agree with the sentiment that wages still need to be higher. Maybe if the government didn't try to fund everything, the companies could afford to pay more. Here in Chicago, the suburb schools are vastly superior to the city ones (which are run by the Democratic party, which has had a stranglehold on the city council since before my father was born), despite the fact that the city schools receive equal or more money than most suburbs. Why? Because politicians who say they care about the poor and disadvantaged use the money they steal from people to line the pockets of themselves and their friends. Republicans do it as well, but every time someone tries to claim Democrats care more about people (especially the children), I want to lose my lunch. Chicago is the second most corrupt city in the country (thank God for New Orleans). Democratic policies for basically the entire 20th century have made for dangerous neighborhoods, high taxes, bad education, serious problems with gangs/drugs/prostitution, and many more problems.

Let's stop trying to claim that one party or the other's shit doesn't stink. You show me a Republican who wants to fuck male pages...I'll show you a Democrat who took a $100,000 bribe and stuck the money in his freezer (and let's not forget the honorable John Murtha). Once people stop believing that their party has less corrupt individuals, maybe something will finally get accomplished to make everyone's life better.

 

[shereads]

I would too if I were you. But I didn't do what you say here. I said "you frequently sound like you hate this country." You do sound that way, and it's because you present descriptions of it that are completely unbalanced and bear no resemblence to reality. If you don't like sounding like you hate this country then don't draw caricatures and call them portraits.

PS. I am generally not this adversarial in a thread, but when the first post ends, "you ass," and you accuse anyone who disagrees with you with "marching in lock step-mentality," that's pretty much the way it's going to go.

People who express surprise at what can easily be confirmed are suspect in the reality department. My reality on issues like working class poverty is fact-based; your reality too often seems to be based on faith, which is no less dangerous for not having a religious basis. Richard Clark called that kind of thinking "willful ignorance." It got us into Iraq.

As for sounding like I hate America: If I hated a policy, and failed to hate it openly and vehemently because I cared more for your good opinion, I'd be a coward and not worthy of living in a participatory democracy. Lucky for me, I don't much mind that you think I sound a certain way, as long as there's no secret police for you to report me to. So far, so good.

Did I call someone an ass? Oops. "Ass" is too mild an epithet for someone who pretends that unfair is fair, that bigotry is an American ideal, and that his own precious family are too good to fight a war he supported.

 

[Roxanne Appleby]

For anyone who claims they'd be 'surprised' that working families living in poverty:

Hunger and the Working Poor

Chicago Tribune - husband, wife both work, in line at food bank

Another surprise:

"Working Class War"

Race and ethnicity, war casualties

That Chicago Tribune article is nothing but an uncritical repetition of heavily massaged statistics generated by unions and left-wing interest groups - your other links. My favorite was this: "Danny Palmer, who lives in the Ohio River village of Cheshire, lost his $20-an-hour welding job and now works at Wal-Mart for $5.95 an hour."

Very few if any Wal-Mart workers get a wage that low. Those that do, if there are any, are brand new hires. In other words, the reporter had to search hard to find a Wal-Mart worker who fit the already-written story line, and wear blinders to the many who did not.

You will never hear me deny that it is hard for those at the bottom in America (or anywhere else). My desire that every American enjoy what I consider a basic level of material comfort and security is no less than yours. What I object to is the total lack of balance in your characterizations of this country, and your refusal to ackowledge the fact that the vast majority of ordinary people in America enjoy a very decent standard of living and reasonable security.

 

[shereads]

Perfectly said. My local Steak & Shake is hiring. It starts at $7/hr. If you're not a complete fuck-up (and can speak any english at all), you get regular promotions (and there are partial benefits). There is also shift differential if you'd like to work a less desirable shift. I've never once had to work for minimum wage at any job I've ever had (pizza delivery averaged out to almost $10/hr...and that was 20 years ago). Some people are forced to take what they can get, but I can point you at landscaping jobs that pay better than $10/hr cash that work all summer long.

Good for you. Unfortunately, your personal experience doesn't mesh with the statistics. See above.

 

[Roxanne Appleby]

Good for you. Unfortunately, your personal experience doesn't mesh with the statistics. See above.

The heavily massaged statistics carefully tailored to twist the truth rather than accurately describe reality.

 

[shereads]

That Chicago Tribune article is nothing but an uncritical repetition of heavily massaged statistics generated by unions and left-wing interest groups. My favorite was this: "Danny Palmer, who lives in the Ohio River village of Cheshire, lost his $20-an-hour welding job and now works at Wal-Mart for $5.95 an hour."

Very few if any Wal-Mart workers get a wage that low. Those that do, if there are any, are brand new hires. In other words, the reporter had to search hard to find a Wal-Mart worker who fit the already-written story line, and wear blinders to the many who did not.

You will never hear me deny that it is hard for those at the bottom in America (or anywhere else). My desire that every American enjoy what I consider a basic level of material comfort and security is no less than yours. What I object to is the total lack of balance in your characterizations of this country, and your refusal to ackowledge the fact that the vast majority of ordinary people in America enjoy a very decent standard of living and reasonable security.

Taking issue with a small portion of a post, ignoring what you don't want to acknowledge, and failing to offer a smigeon of proof for what you think everyone ought to accept as fact, are debate tactics common to you and Amicus. You said you'd be surprised if there were many working families living in poverty. I could spend the evening googling article after article, study upon study, and you still wouldn't believe it. Blind faith is awfully close to ass-like.

 

[shereads]

The heavily massaged statistics carefully tailored to twist the truth rather than accurately describe reality.

Prove it. I'm sure the Heritage Foundation can help.

 

[S-Des]

Good for you. Unfortunately, your personal experience doesn't mesh with the statistics. See above.

OK, check this out. This is the jobs in the Chicago Tribune's want ads (just ones posted since yesterday). You let me know how many you find that are remotely close to minimum wage. I spent the entire night looking for 3rd shift jobs yesterday and out of hundreds, only found 3 that were under $10/hr (and they had benefits and there were many available). Trust me, I know the Chicago job market and will be happy to provide you with as many examples as you'd like of jobs people can do that make far above mimimum wage. BTW, there were 678 jobs in the Tribune's help wanted ads today (and that doesn't count the outlying burbs).

This doesn't mean I completely disagree with you about wages vs cost of living. However, I have to agree with Roxanne. I've never met two adults who were unable to secure anything other than minimum wage jobs. If you can find one, I will personally find them a better job and make sure they upgrade their lifestyle.

Edited to add: I'm not being sarcastic. I know religion is spit on by many around here, but I've been a member of one church or another for most of my life. All the ones I've belonged to offer help for people who are struggling. Sometimes it's with handouts, other times it's helping them find better jobs. I don't just post my frustration with the system. When I can, I do my best to make it better. I know it doesn't make a large difference, but I'll still try.

 

[shereads]

People who express surprise at what can easily be confirmed are suspect in the reality department. My reality on issues like working class poverty is fact-based; your reality too often seems to be based on faith, which is no less dangerous for not having a religious basis. Richard Clark called that kind of thinking "willful ignorance." It got us into Iraq.

As for sounding like I hate America: If I hated a policy, and failed to hate it openly and vehemently because I cared more for your good opinion, I'd be a coward and not worthy of living in a participatory democracy. Lucky for me, I don't much mind that you think I sound a certain way, as long as there's no secret police for you to report me to. So far, so good.

Did I call someone an ass? Oops. "Ass" is too mild an epithet for someone who pretends that unfair is fair, that bigotry is an American ideal, and that his own precious family are too good to fight a war he supported.

Oops. I said "ass" again.

More twisted facts:

Poverty in America

 

[shereads]

Here's a sure-fire way to support an all-volunteer military: every healthy American above the age of consent who thought the Iraq war was a good idea, volunteer.

Case closed. Goodnight, America.

 

[Roxanne Appleby]

Truth is the first casualty of war, and I guess that applies to political warfare also. The caricature that Shereads holds up and claims is a portrait of America is unfortunate in many ways, primarily this one: There are legitimate concerns regarding the potential for stagnant or even declining real standards of living for the working class in this country as a result of changes in the world economy.

My sense is that there has been no absolute decline, but that there has not been very much advance either, if any. It's actually quite a complicated issue, because there are many cross currents. For example, material goods are cheaper thanks to globalizaton and Wal-mart, and this has left more money in people's pockets, but on the other hand health care costs are higher and workers are having to pay a larger percentage of the amount. If real wages were flat while these things were going on, did the one cancel out the other, or has the field tilted a bit one way or the other?

I genuinely would like to know the answer. It's not possible to get a precise answer, but I think an approximation is possible. But I can't trust any of the sources Shereads cites, because they all come from sources that are heavily compromised by political agendas, and in some cases mercenary agendas, like the anti-WalMart union bosses representing grocery store baggers at walmart's competitors.

Senator-elect Webb had a column in the Wall Street Journal last week in which he argued that the working class are falling behind, but he presented no evidence for this. His figures all had to do with the wealthy doing better. But just because the rich are getting richer doesn't mean the poor are getting poorer. They mignt be, but they don't have to be - the pie can get bigger, and has done so in recent years. As long as I'm getting more, I can't complain that much if someone else's share grew by a larger amount. Especially if the policies that my complaint would be used to promote are ones that would actually make the pie smaller.

So I would like to know the truth, but I'm not going to find it in a discussion like this, or in any of the sources cited in this thead.

 

[S-Des]

Case closed. Goodnight, America.

Case almost closed. This is my last post on this because I swear to you, I'm not trying to pick a fight. Just frustrated that I've never seen the America you do. The article you cited lists poverty as $13,003 for a family of 3, $16,660 for a family of 4. But your original argument was that two parents working at minimum wage didn't make enough for rent. A quick check of minimum wage rates showed the average was well above $5/hr, but using $5 as the number, two parents working 40 hours a week (with no OT or second job) is $20,800. That's the worst they can do (assuming your assertion that minimum wage jobs are the best either can do). That would suck, but it does pay the rent.

I'm more concerned with the people who get caught on the next tier. They make too much to get assistance with health care, medicine, tax breaks, etc... But they get financially wiped out by the excessive costs involved in those areas. I think it would be very easy for someone making $20k-$30k going bankrupt because of bad luck and no safety net (because they're doing well enough that they don't need it...at least according to conventional wisdom).

This doesn't take into account people who live in areas where there are no jobs. My family is from a small town in Kentucky, so I do understand that dynamic. There are a lot of poor people who live in areas where they don't have a chance, so I understand that aspect of your argument. However, I still disagree with you overall. People sneak across our border, hiding from the authorities, yet we still educate their children and care for their emergency health needs (and most manage to find work despite their legal status). You might think this country sucks, but I'd still take it over any others.

 

[shereads]

OK, check this out. This is the jobs in the Chicago Tribune's want ads (just ones posted since yesterday). You let me know how many you find that are remotely close to minimum wage. I spent the entire night looking for 3rd shift jobs yesterday and out of hundreds, only found 3 that were under $10/hr (and they had benefits and there were many available). Trust me, I know the Chicago job market and will be happy to provide you with as many examples as you'd like of jobs people can do that make far above mimimum wage. BTW, there were 678 jobs in the Tribune's help wanted ads today (and that doesn't count the outlying burbs).

This doesn't mean I completely disagree with you about wages vs cost of living. However, I have to agree with Roxanne. I've never met two adults who were unable to secure anything other than minimum wage jobs. If you can find one, I will personally find them a better job and make sure they upgrade their lifestyle.

In the research field, quoting the contents of a newspaper's employment section or interviewing someone who's seeking employment might be used to illustrate a point about the purpose of the reserach, but it wouldn't be sufficient evidence to draw any conclusions about the employment picture in Chicago, much less the entire country.

A broader study of every major newspaper's jobs section still wouldn't take into account employers who don't advertise. Corporations who bulk-hire at the minimum wage might not need to advertise; people who hire illegally at below the minimum wage certainly won't.

I don't doubt that you care about the unemployed and underemployed. I just don't think you ought to assume that your own experience and the evidence you encounter in the newspaper are typical. If it was that easy, corporations and political campaigns woudln't spend megabucks on quantitative research.

 

[TE999]

Woohoo, Roxy! You go girl!

This whole minimum wage flapdoodle is false on it's face. For one, almost all persons working for the minimum wage are teenagers at Mickey D's and the BK Lounge. And they don't stay at that wage level very long or they're gone, hence the principle of valuing labor as it benefits the employer.

The minimum wage issue is another wedge the Liberals like to shove between economic 'classes' in a time tested us-versus-them strategy that always guarantees the votes. Or as one sage put it: Those who rob Peter to pay Paul can always count on the vote of Paul.

There are some genuinely down and out in today's society, but 90% of them are that way due to alky, dope or laziness. The other 10% can get help in many different places, and you know what? They don't stay down long.

Here's to free enterprise, smaller government and freedom of choice!

Peace.

Tom (TE999).

 

[shereads]

My sense is that there has been no absolute decline, but that there has not been very much advance either, if any.

Well, why didn't you just say so in the first place? We'll just go with your sense of things and all sleep better tonight knowing it's probably not true that a lack of economic opportunity might make certain races and ethnicities more likely to bear the burden of voluntary military service during wartime.

Participatory democracy is a lot more relaxing your way. I like it.

 

[Pure]

some figures on wages, economic inequality, etc.

reasonably reliable source. also figures on the issue of income volatility.

http://www.frbsf.org/news/speeches/2006/1106.html

President's Speech:
Speech to the Center for the Study of Democracy,
2006-2007 Economics of Governance Lecture,
University of California, Irvine

By Janet L. Yellen, President and CEO, Federal Reserve Bank of San Francisco
November 6, 2006, 4:00 PM Pacific Standard Time

“Economic Inequality in the United States “