Republicans (finally) come around on Ukraine aid

[desecration]

He talked about why aid for Ukraine was “critically important,” adding, “I really do believe the intel and the briefings that we’ve gotten.” This was yet another heresy for many Republicans, who, following Trump, have spent years tearing down the truthfulness and reliability of America’s intelligence agencies.

https://1ft.io/proxy?q=https://www....did-mike-johnson-just-get-religion-on-ukraine

 

[ll74]

Rinos came around for aid. .Republicans wait for 45 to tell them what to do.

 

[desecration]

Liberals generally seriously over-estimate conservative unity.

Liberalism is an ideology, conservatism more like a collection of principles and gut instincts.

 

[Chobham]

That war has reached a stalemate. Without a diplomatic settlement it's going to continue for years.

 

[desecration]

That war has reached a stalemate. Without a diplomatic settlement it's going to continue for years.

I think this was always the case. Russia is much bigger than Ukraine. However, a diplomatic settlement does not need to involve loss of territory.

 

[jomar]

I think this was always the case. Russia is much bigger than Ukraine. However, a diplomatic settlement does not need to involve loss of territory.

True, but hard to imagine Donbas or crimea returning to Ukraine control

 

[desecration]

True, but hard to imagine Donbas or crimea returning to Ukraine control

I think that's part of the goal, but there are perhaps ways to address Russian needs too. Carefully, of course.

 

[jomar]

I think that's part of the goal, but there are perhaps ways to address Russian needs too. Carefully, of course.

What do you understand to be Russian needs? From what I’ve read he wants to restore the Soviet Union.

 

[desecration]

From what I’ve read he wants to restore the Soviet Union.

On the nose! But, what humans want and what they need are often separate things. My guess is Russia wants a warm water port and more participation in the Oil and Gas industry.

 

[Chobham]

Both of you are right. There is a long and sordid history behind all of this. Look up the Crimean War to understand part of it.

Ukraine is not without blame in this as well. First of all they passed laws that were the European equivalent of "Jim Crow" laws regarding the Russian speakers in Eastern Ukraine. Then there was Burisma (ala Hunter Biden). The natural gas pipeline to Western Europe ran through the Ukraine. Ukraine was charging the Russians usurious prices for the transit, and then sticking it to the Western Europeans countries as well, corruption was rampant.

 

[Lazaran]

True, but hard to imagine Donbas or crimea returning to Ukraine control

•
I could easily see all of Ukrainian territory being restored through a combination of consistent sanctions (and enforcement of those sanctions) on Russia and the consistent military resistance to Russia from Ukraine and the West.

At some point, it’s all about cost benefit analysis: I.E. - Make the continued Russian occupation of Crimea and the Donbas so costly that Russia abandons those sovereign Ukrainian territories.

I mean, that ^ is what Russia is trying to do in reverse. (The Hamas attack on Israel was also connected to Russia and Ukraine, imho).

FUCK THAT ^ !!!



Also:

Slava Ukraini!!!

 

[desecration]

I could easily see all of Ukrainian territory being restored through a combination of consistent sanctions (and enforcement of those sanctions) on Russia and the consistent military resistance to Russia from Ukraine and the West.

At some point, it’s all about cost benefit analysis: I.E. - Make the continued Russian occupation of Crimea and the Donbas so costly that Russia abandons those sovereign Ukrainian territories.

I agree, although I think Russia will not back down unless we offer them something else. We have no reason not to make certain types of deals (only) with them, mainly because their economy is permanently moribund no matter what we do.

 

[Shaglus_Ziegler]

That war has reached a stalemate. Without a diplomatic settlement it's going to continue for years.

Another Raytheon dream realized!

 

[desecration]

Another Raytheon dream realized!

In a democracy, votes are a property that are traded, either to lobbyists or for free stuff from government.

 

[Sean Renaud]

Liberals generally seriously over-estimate conservative unity.

Liberalism is an ideology, conservatism more like a collection of principles and gut instincts.

Over-estimate? We often grossly underestimate it. Under Obama we had 60 fucking seats. 60!!!! We couldn't get every single Democrat/Liberal to walk as one unite but it would have taken at most 5 conservatives/Republicans (probably not even that) to get shit done. Given two choices, fuck Obama and hurt the country and learn the word compromise and none of you hesitated.

Didn't hear any of you bitching at all about Barrack Hussien Obama. Which was just a dog whistle for 'he's not one of us' same with the birth certificate. You guys are fucking amazing at a pretending you don't understand the code. Which would require a special kind of stupid or a special kind of dishonesty.

Liberalism is to some extent an ideology. No argument here but we don't do the lock step thing because we don't have the same priorities. I do think taking care of the environment is important but its not my #1 priority. It clearly isn't for MOST of us since you don't hear too much of it even from AOC arguably the most radical progressive we have. Collectively we mostly pay it lip service.

I care about higher wages and decoupling health care from employment. Which was a trick when it started and then we just came to accept that's how its done.

Conservatism does seem to be a collection of principles but they have no deep roots in anything. Gut instincts are great when you're in a rush. If you have time for a rational discussion you shouldn't be going by your gut except as a last resort.

 

[desecration]

Liberalism is to some extent an ideology.

It's egalitarianism. Very old idea.