Republicans and Democrats and Fundamentalist Blind Belief

[Dillinger]

I posted this on Lavy's thread but I feel it got lost in all the partisan infighting and I wanted to give it a chance to stand on its own:

American politics nauseates me. Both parties - not the regular average person who says they associate with one party or the other - but the parties, their control of the system, the way one gets indoctrinated, the way you must conform to rise in the parties - be a team player - etc, etc... its all bullshit. Both parties. Both parties are responsible for blocking social reform and keeping the old boys networks alive. They both suck. As long as this country remains controlled by this two party system bullshit, we're all fucked.

Rick DeVille also posted something on that thread that I thought was right on the money:

There is an amazing political naivety and immaturity in US.
Political thought can’t be readily divided between Democrats and Republicans.

To me politics is about issues that are important to my philosophy and my beliefs. Its not about joining a party and buying into the entire platform. I think that this is true for all thinking people, and many of you on the board are thinking people and I believe to a lesser or greater degree feel the same way.

There are plenty of "Republicans" here who believe in a woman's right to choose. There are "Democrats" here who are right to lifers (and please let's not turn this thread into a discussion of that issue!). All I'm saying is that people have a tendency to align themselves with one party or the other based on how much of what they believe falls into the "platform" of a certain party.

However I truly believe that both parties are corrupt. Not the person who lives next door to me who is a registered Democratic, or the person who lives on the other side of me who is a registered Republican. Or even the guy in my town running for town council as a Republican (whose kids my children are friendly with). But the "PARTY" - the higher levels just like the higher levels of government and religions and the teamsters and any other entrenched organization. Probably even the fucking Boy Scouts... you know?

What gets my goat is the people who believe what they're told to believe, by any organization - without thinking for themselves, without reading and researching and making up their own minds. That, to me, is what feeds the evil in this world. That people can be controlled so easily. That they can be manipulated into fighting with their neighbors over what others have told them is right and wrong.

You want to change the world? You're not going to do it through politics alone. You have to change the way people think. We need to raise our children to think for themselves and to be tolerant. We need to change the basic moral issues of society before we can make a dent in politics.

I've said this over and over here on the board. Any kind of FUNDAMENTALISM is evil - religious, political, or scientific.

Thats my rant for today. If anyone is interested I had a number of threads going this summer that spoke to issues like fundamentalism, the scientific establishment's burning of books, the "new inquisition," and more...

"The New Agnosticism"
http://www.literotica.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=88243

"Let's Play The Aristotelean Either/Or Game"
http://www.literotica.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=88442&highlight=play

"Book Burning and Worse in the Good Old USA"
http://www.literotica.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=90855&highlight=burning

The Ubiquitous Unscrupulous Reporter (Play Along With Uncle Dill)
http://www.literotica.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=91298&highlight=reporter

Does The Universe Exist If We're Not Looking?http://www.literotica.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=88714

 

[Guest]

 

[BigDawg69]

Dilly you make excellent points. The American public has grown so amazingly apathetic that they allow the media and politicians to do all of their thinking for them.

In a crucial scene in the American President Michael J Fox tells the President (Michael Douglas) that the people need leadership and in the absence of a good leader they will follow whoever steps up to the microphone. He says the American people are in a desert and when ther see water they will flock to it. If that oasis turns to be a mirage they will drink the sand.

Micheal Douglas's response is so true. He says the people drink the sand because they don't know the difference.

An apathetic populace can be a very dangerous thing. I believe the apathy of the Romans in their government is one of the key contributing factors of the fall of that great Empire. And America is not above that same fate.

 

[Guest]

I'm just asking for it by implying that I understand enough of the political system to comment with any intelligence.
I respect anyone that stands firmly in their beliefs. And yes, that does include disagreeable philosophies. We yearn for rules. We want to control. So, if we establish said rules and follow each, we are comfortably controlled. You get someone mixing up the pot and all hell breaks loose. The average Joe needs political labels. People that think outside of the box don't so much need democrat or republican affiliation.
I am one of those wishy washy folks that's registered as independent. I want the choice. My beliefs can't coined into one category. I can be conservative and liberal. I care about the environment while I don't enjoy governmental interference.
I do think the party lines are blurred. And I don't think it would hurt for major reform. But, I won't call names and demand a recall if lazy voting wins out again.

 

[Problem Child]

Can anyone say campaign finance reform? The lack of it is the number one reasom american politics is the way it is.

Both parties are guilty of doing their best to de-rail it. Big money is the reason we keep getting the same old mediocre candidates, and the same worthless fuckers stay in congress.

If big money didn't control elections in America, you'd be listening to President McCain, or maybe even President Nader giving this year's state of the union address.

 

[sigh]

Can anyone say campaign finance reform? The lack of it is the number one reasom american politics is the way it is.

Both parties are guilty of doing their best to de-rail it. Big money is the reason we keep getting the same old mediocre candidates, and the same worthless fuckers stay in congress.

If big money didn't control elections in America, you'd be listening to President McCain, or maybe even President Nader giving this year's state of the union address.

Hey, good spelling buddy. It's spelled r-e-a-s-o-n. Just trying to reciprocate your many good deeds.

Oh, and I agree with everyone on this thread so far. Damn it, would somebody start a fight!?

 

[lilrosie lips]

The differences between the two major parties in the USA are really just a matter of degrees, no matter what you see on TV when the polictical hacks get out waving their banners. When it comes down to actually doing something I find that both are too concerned with their numbers than actually doing something constructive. I don't see being an independant, or choosing not to align yourself with any party as "wishy-washy". I think its a wish choice. I vote my considered opinion. I try and read and listen and understand whats before me. If I don't understand the choice and their ramifications, I don't vote on a particular issue. Philosophically I find myself as time goes on that I am more and more inclined to the Libeterian viewpoint, but certainly not ready to give up my independence to jump in an vote their straight ticket either. I hate that any organization, be that a political party, a religion or a union, pressures and at times dictates to their members how to vote on any race or issue. Unfortunately I think many in the US are too lazy or bored or apethetic to care very much.

 

[brokenbrainwave]

while a President McCain would not have disturbed me in the least the very thought of President Nader (or a guy named Buchannon) makes me shudder.

Dilly, you nailed in on the head. We are seemingly forced down a road where your one or the other. I detest that with a passion. The mudslinging, the backbiting, the enitre enchilada sickens me to no end.

What does amaze me is how, as a whole, we the people are led by the so called "hot buttons". What ever happend to term limits? Man did that ever die. I did not personally support the idea behind it, I still find such humor in how we the people are led like lemmings to think "well this is a good idea" from one issue to another. Bottom line todays apathy is our fault. We allowed the, as PC put it so incredibly well, "same old mediocre candidates, and the same worthless fuckers stay in congress". Can they be blamed for this, yes to some degree, but most of the blame rides with we the people.

The hard right would blame the media, and yes they are paritally correct. The hard left would blame the right. I am just, and probably niavely, hoping for a candidate to tell you, I, and everyone else the freakin truth for once.

The two party system is a complete sham unless we start making them responsible. Is it not our money that runs this nation? Are they not supposed to vote the hearts of their constiuents? Why must the good American peoples put up with the lies? The answer is simple, we do not require accountability. Dilly said it best, on a local level most, not all but most politicians are good men and women. They work hard for your community. They listen to their neighbors. They actually, for the most part, care what your children grow up to be. Unfortunately we cannot say the same as to the larger upper echelon group. Absolute power absolutely corrupts, and we the people allowed them this absolute power.

 

[Problem Child]

Hey, good spelling buddy. It's spelled r-e-a-s-o-n. Just trying to reciprocate your many good deeds.

Oh, and I agree with everyone on this thread so far. Damn it, would somebody start a fight!?

Thank you, dear. The spelling buddy never claimed to be perfect, only helpful.

 

[crysede]

Great points Dill, and I agree with you totally: politics has become nothing but a power game between self-interested opponents paying nothing but occasional lip-service to the ideals their party claims to stand for.

But instead of fighting to make government actually work for the people, maybe it's time we just stopped pretending that the big businesses aren't really running the show: my bet is that eventually the world will all live in peaceful harmony, united under the watchful eye of the global Mother Corp.

 

[sigh]

Thank you, dear. The spelling buddy never claimed to be perfect, only helpful.

Darn it. I forgot the smilie. Here, you can have this one:

 

[Problem Child]

while a President McCain would not have disturbed me in the least the very thought of President Nader (or a guy named Buchannon) makes me shudder.

Note: If the field had been level, and there weren't a $100 million Republican money machine trying to steamroll him, McCain would have beaten Bush (narrowly), and whipped the crap out of Gore. No chad debate, not popular vote victory for Gore. I'm convinced of that.

I don't think the same can realistically be said about Nader. Most of his ideas are too far left for the great center of the American voter body to accept.

Bottom line todays apathy is our fault. We allowed the, as PC put it so incredibly well, "same old mediocre candidates, and the same worthless fuckers stay in congress". Can they be blamed for this, yes to some degree, but most of the blame rides with we the people.

I think the only blame the people can claim is for letting the situation get so far out of hand. As it stands now, the people can't correct the problem. At each election, the system is rigged to basically to give us one Democratic choice, and one Republican choice. Why do you think so many Multi-millionaires have been winning high public office, people with no prior political experience? Because it's all about money now, and money means advertising. Elections are no longer about campaigns and issues...they are about advertising and sound bites. And the average american can't change that...we are stuck with what we are offered in most cases.

Does anyone really believe that we had any other choice beyond Bush and Gore in the last election? They were chosen by their respective parties and pushed on the elctorate. They were tapped to get all the money. McCain and everyone else had to campaign on the grass roots level, and on way less money.

We need politicians with guts enough to kick down the wall of the campaign finance system, and to keep kicking it until the playing field is level.

 

[someplace]

Breaking my own rule by posting here

Most Americans do not care about politics. Apathy, laziness and (dare I say) absolute stupidity about how government really works and really affects them -- are all contributing factors in the malaise Americans show for politics. As long as they don't think it affects them, as long as they buy into/believe the distilled Madison Avenue pap served up as soundbites without questioning why and who and where, the electorate will get what it deserves.

Money is a factor but not THE factor -- yes there are advantages built into the system that heavily favor those already there. It actually is not impossible to overcome those odds, but it's tough. Campaign reform is a great idea. Will we see it in our lifetime? Probably not.

I personally favor the British campaign system: the election is announced and they campaign for 3 weeks. 3 WEEKS!

 

[brokenbrainwave]

PC I have no doubts that McCain would have been president if not for the reasons you gave. Sad that the man probably most fit for the job, at least in my opinion was not given the chance of a level playing field. I support campaign finance reform, but I am not convinced it will help much...these rat bastards will find a way to subvert it.

Damn, I hate being forced to agree with ya but once again as to the power of the people, we lost that long ago. I thought McCain might have had the guts but I am not sure now.

 

[Problem Child]

Re: Breaking my own rule by posting here

Most Americans do not care about politics. Apathy, laziness and (dare I say) absolute stupidity about how government really works and really affects them -- are all contributing factors in the malaise Americans show for politics. As long as they don't think it affects them, as long as they buy into/believe the distilled Madison Avenue pap served up as soundbites without questioning why and who and where, the electorate will get what it deserves.

Money is a factor but not THE factor -- yes there are advantages built into the system that heavily favor those already there. It actually is not impossible to overcome those odds, but it's tough. Campaign reform is a great idea. Will we see it in our lifetime? Probably not.

I personally favor the British campaign system: the election is announced and they campaign for 3 weeks. 3 WEEKS!

Sorry, but you're wrong, IMO.

Of course, people are apathetic, but what causes the apathy? Is it in the water, the air? Why has the percentage of eligible adults that actually vote in elections steadily declined throughout the last 50 or so years?

Voter apathy is caused by the feeling that no matter how we vote, the same old shit keeps happening. We see no improvement in the system, so we start to believe that our vote has no effect on it.

Money IS the main factor in the stagnation in american politics. Level the playing feild, reduce the length of the campaign, let more viewpoints be heard, and I GUARANTEE you will see a revitalization of the american electorate.

Let the people actually choose, instead of being force-fed, and you will see 20-30% more people turn out at the polls.

 

[Problem Child]

PC I have no doubts that McCain would have been president if not for the reasons you gave. Sad that the man probably most fit for the job, at least in my opinion was not given the chance of a level playing field. I support campaign finance reform, but I am not convinced it will help much...these rat bastards will find a way to subvert it.

We'll never know until we really try it.

Damn, I hate being forced to agree with ya but once again as to the power of the people, we lost that long ago. I thought McCain might have had the guts but I am not sure now.

McCain has the guts, he's proven that. He's one of the most hated Republicans in the senate...hated mostly by his fellow republicans. McCain-Feingold passed, but was so watered down that it will have little effect. It's a steep uphill climb...these guys don't want anyone to pull the plug on their ATM machine.

 

[someplace]

What really amazes me

How many of you actually KNOW your elected officials? It's so easy to denigrate them as a group; paint them all with the same brush.

In my experience, MOST elected officials really do believe in doing good for most. Yes many have incredible egos and some are on power trips. But if you met them, talked with them, listened to them and understood why they made which decisions, you'd probably be glad you did not have their job. And you can easily sus out the phonies to make sure you don't vote for them next time -- or heaven forbid -- even work against them to get someone in their place who's better.

As an American citizen you have far far greater potential impact on government decisions from the courthouse to the White House than you know. Do you take the time to exercise that impact? I know you don't. I've been there and seen it.

 

[brokenbrainwave]

originally posted by PC McCain has the guts, he's proven that. He's one of the most hated Republicans in the senate...hated mostly by his fellow republicans. McCain-Feingold passed, but was so watered down that it will have little effect. It's a steep uphill climb...these guys don't want anyone to pull the plug on their ATM machine.

AMEN! Did it not look like, several months back, he was going to switch to the Democratic Party? I wonder if that is still an realistic option for him. That thought must have been in an attempt to run for the presidency in '04.

oh and someplace, I for one do try to get to know whom I am voting for or against as best I can and not rely on their cutesy sound bytes or "hey, this guy has great hair, he must be ok".

 

[brokenbrainwave]

oh and PC, great AV, Hawkeye rocks! and on a personal note for humor purposes only, some fucker by the name of Frank Burns is taking my gall bladder out Monday morning. I actually laughed my ass off when told whom my surgeon is going to be, absolutely hillarious...I just hope he's a better doc than the one from M*A*S*H!!

 

[Lost Cause]

Money is the problem...

How do you think the insurance companies can dictate public law through our reps?
Solutions?

#1 Return to the original government schedule- ( 9 months on, 3 off )

#2 Civil service pay for elected reps.

#3 An audit of government once a year. (full disclosure)

#4 NO tax money campaign contributions, finances collected for campaign are taxed and added to the earned income of the politician. (They pay taxes for the contributed money)

#5 All media ads are DONATED by the networks and must include equal time and coverage. (PSAs)

#6 Extend rules to state reps as well.


*It wouldn't be a bad start! Some would say, "you can't do that, it's too entrenched." Those people enable the status quo.

www.lp.org

 

[Problem Child]

oh and PC, great AV, Hawkeye rocks! and on a personal note for humor purposes only, some fucker by the name of Frank Burns is taking my gall bladder out Monday morning. I actually laughed my ass off when told whom my surgeon is going to be, absolutely hillarious...I just hope he's a better doc than the one from M*A*S*H!!

Wow, good luck with that. I suppose the head nurse is named Hoolihan?

 

[brokenbrainwave]

Wow, good luck with that. I suppose the head nurse is named Hoolihan?

I can only hope! I was not looking for any well wishes or anything (thanks though), but it does play very well with the hawkeye thing, LOL.

 

[someplace]

Re: Re: Breaking my own rule by posting here

Voter apathy is caused by the feeling that no matter how we vote, the same old shit keeps happening. We see no improvement in the system, so we start to believe that our vote has no effect on it.

Money IS the main factor in the stagnation in american politics. Level the playing feild, reduce the length of the campaign, let more viewpoints be heard, and I GUARANTEE you will see a revitalization of the american electorate.

Let the people actually choose, instead of being force-fed, and you will see 20-30% more people turn out at the polls.

Every single vote DOES count. And every person who doesn't vote let's their non-vote count toward someone else's choice. It's so much easier to blame than take responsibility for civic rights. Democracy doesn't just HAPPEN. It takes work. It takes time. When it all comes down to it, most Americans don't give a shit and would rather sit on their ass and complain about how bad and corrupt it is. That's such bullshit.

It all starts at the bottom baby and that's the easiest place to be involved, to be heard, to have an impact. It's very easy to run a campaign for Justice of the Peace or local judge or county commissioner and believe me -- THOSE are the people who are going to have the greatest impact on the average citizen's life.

And that's not to say that your Congressman, Senators and even the White House do not care about what YOU -- YOU personally -- every single one of you on this thread -- think. If you took the time to either write or call them, your opinion would actually count a hundredfold. You can make a difference -- if you cared enough to back it up and not just bitch about it.

 

[REDWAVE]

Green Party

The Green Party is beginning to emerge as a powerful force in American politics. This is largely because of the virtual prostration of the Democrats to the Republicans, and their failure to provide a genuine opposition. The Democrats represent the same class interests as do the Republicans (bankers and big business). The Greens, on the other hand, are building a grassroots, mass-based opposition party, essentially a socialist party. The U.S. is the ONLY advanced industrial nation without a mass socialist party, so there is a glaring need for one.

If the Greens ever make it into power, however, they will no doubt prove to be as opportunistic and corrupt as the German Greens have, in their ruling coalition with the SPD (Social Democratic Party) . . .

 

[Problem Child]

Re: Money is the problem...

How do you think the insurance companies can dictate public law through our reps?
Solutions?

#1 Return to the original government schedule- ( 9 months on, 3 off )

I wouldn't even give them 3 months off. I think one is enough for anybody, especially since a lot of their "required" travel (junkets) are pretty much vacations anyway.

#2 Civil service pay for elected reps.

I have no problem with a senator or rep. making a good wage. They are doing and important job, and usually need to maintain two homes. What they make now doesn't bother me. It's a lot less than any CEO of a major corp. makes, and they are making much more imortant decisions most of the time.

#3 An audit of government once a year. (full disclosure)

Of course.

#4 NO tax money campaign contributions, finances collected for campaign are taxed and added to the earned income of the politician. (They pay taxes for the contributed money)

I would rather just see a cap on contributions, and a much shortened campaign...perhaps 90 days for the presidential race. That would lower the cost of campaigns, as well as keeping people from losing interest. 90 days is more than long enough for anyone to "get their message out".

Another reason I don't like the contribution tax idea is that I think we should do away with the entire tax code and go flat tax.

#5 All media ads are DONATED by the networks and must include equal time and coverage. (PSAs)

Yes.

#6 Extend rules to state reps as well.

Yes. Extend it to everybody.


*It wouldn't be a bad start! Some would say, "you can't do that, it's too entrenched." Those people enable the status quo.

www.lp.org