REALLY LONG STORY: What would you do in my situation?

unknooown

Really Experienced
Joined
Dec 28, 2006
Posts
195
Long-winded post ahead so get out now if you're easily bored or you hate to read.

My wife and I used to live with a friend who has known both of us for more than ten years. He actually knew her first but he and I became friends shortly before I met her and only then did the three of hang out. My point here is to make it clear that he doesn't feel loyalty toward one of us more than the other.

A few years ago he got kicked out of his house so he came to live with us and he stayed for a couple years which somehow worked out really well. He knows that we have a consensual nonconsent relationship, he's cool with it, and he's cool when in the presence of it. When I wasn't home, he was in charge. I don't know how that came about but eventually it was just understood if my wife (girlfriend at the time) steps out of line and he calls her on it, she has to obey him. Along with that I told him if it ever came down to it he could use a spatula or something on her ass, within reason. There are a lot of rules and boundaries that go along with it but the only relevant ones are that he cannot use his hand, they must both be fully clothed, and spanking is it -- no pushing around, no hitting the rest of the body, nothing else.

As I said before, they're really good friends and she's a pretty good girl, and I don't think many issues arise where he has to exert his authority. When it happens they can tell me about it if they want but as far as I'm concerned as long as it's a minor misstep and he handles it I don't care to know. In three or four years of this arrangement I've only known about two incidences, until today.

Around ten to six I left the apartment to get some takeout for the three of us. We also have a house rule: no drinking before 6pm. It goes for all of us, but was implemented because my wife and I have what some people may consider a drinking problem (not the point, I don't want to hear it). Our friend is also a pretty heavy drinker but obviously the rule doesn't apply to him unless he's in my home.

Anyway I got back to the apartment around 6:05, maybe a little earlier. My friend was in the living room waiting for me and as soon as I walked in he said "I slapped [mrs. unknooown] across the face." I asked if it was open handed and he said yes. I asked why and he said they'd gotten into an argument, she punched him (because she's a fucking child), and without thinking he slapped her. Then there was a minor scuffle (details are hard to come by), he hit her in the behind with a spoon or something, and sent her to the bedroom. I do not, under any circumstances, tolerate punching, and I can understand reacting to a punch without first thinking it through, so the slap's not a big deal. I told him as much and out of curiosity asked what the argument was about. Here he got kind of weird and said nothing important, but I pressed the issue and he said that he was going to open a beer around 5:55pm and she said he had to wait until 6 and they exchanged words and then she hit him. I was pissed but I can't beat his ass, so I was like whatever, we'll discuss it later, and we went into the kitchen. The beer was on the table; thing is, it had been poured in a glass. He never ever drinks bottled or canned beer out of a glass, only my wife does that. So I saw the beer and I asked if he wanted to give his explanation another shot and he admitted that she was the one trying to drink the beer and he was the one trying to stop her, but the rest was true.

I'm really angry for a few reasons. One, why the fuck couldn't she wait five more minutes for it to be 6pm? And two, the 6pm rule is one I'm really serious about and they both know that. Breaking it is not what I would consider a minor misstep (which they don't have to tell me about) and I would have wanted to hear about it no matter the circumstances, and I made that clear when the rule was established. I get that they're friends but he's my friend too, and it's my fucking house, and I let him live with us rent free for years AND paid for a semester of his college.

At this point what do I do? How do I know if there have been other major missteps that I haven't heard about? Should I even bother asking? Should I just forgo the whole fucking system where he's in charge when I'm not home? Because as far as I know it's been working pretty well and I like it for a number of reasons (all selfish). They have never complained about the system, even now, and I truly don't think there have been many problems but now who fucking knows.
 
Long-winded post ahead so get out now if you're easily bored or you hate to read.

My wife and I used to live with a friend who has known both of us for more than ten years. He actually knew her first but he and I became friends shortly before I met her and only then did the three of hang out. My point here is to make it clear that he doesn't feel loyalty toward one of us more than the other.

A few years ago he got kicked out of his house so he came to live with us and he stayed for a couple years which somehow worked out really well. He knows that we have a consensual nonconsent relationship, he's cool with it, and he's cool when in the presence of it. When I wasn't home, he was in charge. I don't know how that came about but eventually it was just understood if my wife (girlfriend at the time) steps out of line and he calls her on it, she has to obey him. Along with that I told him if it ever came down to it he could use a spatula or something on her ass, within reason. There are a lot of rules and boundaries that go along with it but the only relevant ones are that he cannot use his hand, they must both be fully clothed, and spanking is it -- no pushing around, no hitting the rest of the body, nothing else.

As I said before, they're really good friends and she's a pretty good girl, and I don't think many issues arise where he has to exert his authority. When it happens they can tell me about it if they want but as far as I'm concerned as long as it's a minor misstep and he handles it I don't care to know. In three or four years of this arrangement I've only known about two incidences, until today.

Around ten to six I left the apartment to get some takeout for the three of us. We also have a house rule: no drinking before 6pm. It goes for all of us, but was implemented because my wife and I have what some people may consider a drinking problem (not the point, I don't want to hear it). Our friend is also a pretty heavy drinker but obviously the rule doesn't apply to him unless he's in my home.

Anyway I got back to the apartment around 6:05, maybe a little earlier. My friend was in the living room waiting for me and as soon as I walked in he said "I slapped [mrs. unknooown] across the face." I asked if it was open handed and he said yes. I asked why and he said they'd gotten into an argument, she punched him (because she's a fucking child), and without thinking he slapped her. Then there was a minor scuffle (details are hard to come by), he hit her in the behind with a spoon or something, and sent her to the bedroom. I do not, under any circumstances, tolerate punching, and I can understand reacting to a punch without first thinking it through, so the slap's not a big deal. I told him as much and out of curiosity asked what the argument was about. Here he got kind of weird and said nothing important, but I pressed the issue and he said that he was going to open a beer around 5:55pm and she said he had to wait until 6 and they exchanged words and then she hit him. I was pissed but I can't beat his ass, so I was like whatever, we'll discuss it later, and we went into the kitchen. The beer was on the table; thing is, it had been poured in a glass. He never ever drinks bottled or canned beer out of a glass, only my wife does that. So I saw the beer and I asked if he wanted to give his explanation another shot and he admitted that she was the one trying to drink the beer and he was the one trying to stop her, but the rest was true.

I'm really angry for a few reasons. One, why the fuck couldn't she wait five more minutes for it to be 6pm? And two, the 6pm rule is one I'm really serious about and they both know that. Breaking it is not what I would consider a minor misstep (which they don't have to tell me about) and I would have wanted to hear about it no matter the circumstances, and I made that clear when the rule was established. I get that they're friends but he's my friend too, and it's my fucking house, and I let him live with us rent free for years AND paid for a semester of his college.

At this point what do I do? How do I know if there have been other major missteps that I haven't heard about? Should I even bother asking? Should I just forgo the whole fucking system where he's in charge when I'm not home? Because as far as I know it's been working pretty well and I like it for a number of reasons (all selfish). They have never complained about the system, even now, and I truly don't think there have been many problems but now who fucking knows.

Interesting.

And, I suspect there's some history he doesn't know that belongs in this story.

Not to mention, there's probably a lot we don't know...
 
Nothing sexual or romantic has happened between them, ever, at any point during their friendship. They're like siblings.
 
Sounds like you can't really trust people when you have to dig for the truth, and it sounds like there's a serious problem when you have to dig for the truth and it's about things like alcohol and things that cops would arrest both your asses for if they knew.

I think they owe you some trust repair and you owe yourself to expect it.
 
Sounds like you can't really trust people when you have to dig for the truth, and it sounds like there's a serious problem when you have to dig for the truth and it's about things like alcohol and things that cops would arrest both your asses for if they knew.

I think they owe you some trust repair and you owe yourself to expect it.

I'm inclined to agree. I HATE being lied to even if its minor. To he op, You need to communicate how much this can NOT happen again. If it does something should happen.
 
Though I know you asked not to talk about the drinking, you also asked why she couldn't wait until 6 p.m. The answer to your question is in front of you, and no amount of external controls will ultimately keep problem drinking contained forever.

I would suggest this is just the tip of the iceberg. Look beneath the surface.

As someone who has tried to use external controls to draw parameters around out-of-control behaviors, box-in the chaos so to speak, I can only say that inevitably it finds its way out.
 
Well

Dear Un:
That's a tough nut to crack. It sounds to me as though three people living in the same household are trying to use "rules" to govern certain behaviors rather than the common courtesy of adulthood. I do not mean to be disrespectful. I DO get the situation and find similarities in the behaviors of some folks in my life. It would never occur to me to establish "rules" for behavior for my wife and a guest no matter how long we resided in the same house. My expectation would be that we would be respect the personal boundaries of each of the others and would depend on discussion and flexibility and good will toward the others to achieve resolution of differences.
The situation reminds me of the problems faced by those whose religion dictates they live by "THE LAW" be the in the Bible or Koran. Life gets to be very difficult because the rules do not cover all possible situations.
It would be tough for me to stay in a house if one had to uncover the truth by questioning.
 
As ES pointed out it is a drinking problem when you are unable to control it.

If your friend understands how serious you are about the drinking rule and cares a lot about both you and your wife and the relationships between the three of you, he is really stuck between a rock and a hard place when it comes to being honest and open about her ability to stick with that rule.
So yes, there may very well have been other incidents like this.

Not really an excuse, I think people should speak up if they feel they are being set up to fail, but perhaps you should evaluate your system for different issues. It might work well for the three of you for other issues and rules but not for the drinking thing.

As for the trust issue, I think the three of you have a lot of talking to do, before you can decide about future trust.
 
I don't see this as a D/s issue at all, and using Dominance to solve it will be a losing proposition-- at least in the way you seem to have tried. Simply giving an order to not behave in a certain way doesn't address the reasons for the behavior, and--as you have seen-- will not stick. Use your Dominance to get her the help she needs to follow your orders. If drinking is the problem, hie all three of thyselves to AA for some support.
 
Hey everyone, thank you very much for the input.

The drinking problem is more mine than my wife's. My company is really relaxed so we drink throughout the day, never getting drunk but maintaining a steady buzz, and then I would get home and drink more with my wife (and/or my friend/s if he/they were over). It occurred to me a few months ago that it had become a pretty bad habit and then my wife brought it up to me as well, and I didn't even think she had noticed. When she brought it up I agreed it was time to try to curb the behavior.

She does have a drink or two almost every day. The rule applies to her because if she's had a beer she has no interest in eating dinner. Any desire she has for food goes straight out the window. And once in a while, fine -- not recommended, but fine. But it was becoming a regular thing so I suggested she follow the rule too and she agreed it was a good idea.

I know I technically have no authority over my friend but our dynamic is pretty complex and in a way I do. He's like my younger brother and I've helped him a lot in many ways, not just financially, and, fuck if I can even put it into words. He looked up to me when we were kids and still does in his own way. And he lives literally across the hall from us so if he wants a drink before 6pm he can go to his own house. But he's never had a problem following the 6pm rule, so that's not really the issue.

After I cooled down I talked to each of them individually and then together. My wife's problem with what happened yesterday is that 5 minutes didn't seem like a big deal and I get that. 5 minutes, one time, is fine. But my worry is that it becomes a regular thing, and then it's well, 5:50 is only five minutes earlier, and so on. And the little fit she threw is just because she sometimes acts like an insufferable and spoiled child. I told her as much and she agreed and apologized. Note: when I say she punched him I mean she made a tiny fist and flailed it at him, and it was directed as his shoulder. Clearly it hurt him enough that he reacted without thinking, but I don't think her outburst is indicative of her need at that moment for alcohol. I think it's indicative of the fact that she sometimes acts like a child.

To nfrrdscnnr1, I appreciate the comments. The rule isn't necessarily rigid; I am open to being flexible, I just need a reason. But "5 minutes isn't a big deal" isn't a reason in my book. If it's a birthday, a holiday, if there's some sort of beer emergency where she needs the beer or she will die, fine. But yesterday that wasn't the case.

IrisAlthea & Stella_Omega, I'm going to talk to him again privately, no pressure, no consequences, to find out if her drinking before 6 is a regular thing when I'm not there (I usually get home around 4 and it's never been a problem in my presence). But like I said, I think the issue is a matter of her being used to getting what she wants when she wants it; if it's not, and the impatience seems to be the result of a craving, I will look into AA for the both of us.

The trust between the three of us is a little shaken up and he knows he has some repairing to do. Because really it was him -- she didn't lie to me yesterday, she didn't even know that he attempted to cover her ass until I brought her out so we could all talk. They both swore up and down that every time she's really stepped out of line in the past I was told about it the same day. I believe them on that because there aren't a lot of ways for her to make me as angry as I was last night, so for it to be a common thing would be completely ridiculous and insane.

Anyway I came up with something that I think will deter him from covering for her as well as deter her from acting like a brat, at least in his presence, so for now we're good. The drinking advice has been noted and filed away but I don't think we've reached actual drinking problem status (yet? fuck).

Again: thank you, seriously, very much.
 
I just realized when describing my relationship with my friend it sounds like I expect him to obey me or live by my rules because I've done him a few favors. That's not the case, I don't believe that. When he lived with us there were no rules that applied to him, only my wife, so that was never an issue. I only brought up the favors I've done for him because I feel that he should have shown me more respect than he did by lying to me.

IrisAlthea, I do understand he was in a difficult situation yesterday. I get that. But the process is pretty clear: she steps out line and he handles it OR she <i>really</i> steps out of line and I hear about it. Frankly I don't even know if he disciplines her when I'm not there (for minor infractions) and nor do I care. He just has the right to. So to me it was just a matter of following protocol and he didn't, which required him not to lie by omission (which would be a problem but not as serious), but to tell me something he actually made up. In my mind, the choice should have been simple.
 
I just realized when describing my relationship with my friend it sounds like I expect him to obey me or live by my rules because I've done him a few favors. That's not the case, I don't believe that. When he lived with us there were no rules that applied to him, only my wife, so that was never an issue. I only brought up the favors I've done for him because I feel that he should have shown me more respect than he did by lying to me.

IrisAlthea, I do understand he was in a difficult situation yesterday. I get that. But the process is pretty clear: she steps out line and he handles it OR she <i>really</i> steps out of line and I hear about it. Frankly I don't even know if he disciplines her when I'm not there (for minor infractions) and nor do I care. He just has the right to. So to me it was just a matter of following protocol and he didn't, which required him not to lie by omission (which would be a problem but not as serious), but to tell me something he actually made up. In my mind, the choice should have been simple.

Oh, I agree. That's why you really need to find out why it wasn't that simple this time.
It seems like a really good friend, so I hope you can work it out soon.
 
I have one suggestion as to why it got complicated this time; We are in the middle of a winter that came on top of a nasty election year and economic downturn and I don't know ONE SINGLE PERSON who isn't showing stress one way or another. This is not an excuse, understand; but it's factoring in for a lot of people. I've been coping better since I figured it out for myself, f'rinstance.
 
I hadn't thought of that but my wife nearly made herself sick from about the beginning of September until November over the election. She was completely beside herself for two full months, nonstop, and as you can imagine that was pretty stressful for the other two people in house, living with this insane tiny hysterical thing. Obviously we were anxious too but not like her. She didn't sleep at all the two or three days before the election, and then she voted at like some insane fucking hour in the morning and came home and had a couple drinks (!) and then slept sixteen hours RIGHT THROUGH ALL THE FUCKING COVERAGE. She woke up once, soon after they started counting the votes, and basically they had juuust started counting some red state (I think West Virginia) and she saw that and started crying and then fell asleep again. We DVR'd the rest of it for her but it wasn't the same.

When I think/talk/write about how crazy she is it makes me love her so much more.

Yeah though we do need some time to recover after that whole episode.
 
I hadn't thought of that but my wife nearly made herself sick from about the beginning of September until November over the election. She was completely beside herself for two full months, nonstop, and as you can imagine that was pretty stressful for the other two people in house, living with this insane tiny hysterical thing. Obviously we were anxious too but not like her. She didn't sleep at all the two or three days before the election, and then she voted at like some insane fucking hour in the morning and came home and had a couple drinks (!) and then slept sixteen hours RIGHT THROUGH ALL THE FUCKING COVERAGE. She woke up once, soon after they started counting the votes, and basically they had juuust started counting some red state (I think West Virginia) and she saw that and started crying and then fell asleep again. We DVR'd the rest of it for her but it wasn't the same.

When I think/talk/write about how crazy she is it makes me love her so much more.

Yeah though we do need some time to recover after that whole episode.
Dude, I wondered where my own crazy had gone to. Seems like she shouldered it for me, i am SO SORRY.

I threw a tantrum at the first debate, and had to go run around the block a bunch while it was on, chanting "LIAR, FUCKING LIAR" in time to my pounding feet. Then I refused to visit facebook the next day.

True story. I know where she's coming from there.
 
Wow, I am so glad to hear it wasn't just her. Yeah the first debate was pretty rough but I told my wife it's better to start weak and end strong than vice versa and looook who was riiiight
 
Oh you've probably seen this but if you haven't you should check out the Fox News coverage from that night, it's fucking gold.
 
OH yeah-- Karl Rove's face! Hooooly shit.

There is a "politics isolation thread" in the cafe-- we really try hard to keep political discussion limited to a few places :eek:
 
A couple of thoughts/observations and understand there is no judgement intended here or anything but what I intend it as, my thoughts and suggestions.

D/s is based on trust and in effect you have given your friend the power of a D and with that comes trust as well, that he won't do what you don't wish him to and follows the rules (slapping her is not an abuse of trust IMO, as you point out, it was a reaction to being hit). If it was me, I would talk to your friend and tell him that because of the nature of the relationship between your wife and you, he needs to be truthful, you need to trust him, because it is endemic to the style of relationship you have. I would tell him I understand his loyalty to my wife, but that he has to be truthful with me and she would want it that way (if not she wasn't being a good s). Both of them have to understand that when you are not there, the rules still hold and they both have to uphold them. 5:55 might seem like nothing, but if the rule is 6, then 6 (or later) it must be, it isn't the '5 minutes', it is about honoring the rule (yeah, weird coming from me, who hates absolutism, be it religion or whatever, including when I was the s in a D/s), and if that is what your relationship is maintained on, then it has to be stuck to...and tell her why, that it throws up a cloud of doubt , not that the rule has been broken, but that the trust that is behind her following your lead has been broken. One logical course here might be to forbid her drinking for a couple of weeks, but me personally, I would let my s know they hurt me, that they disappointed me, to me from the other side, that hurt far worse then any punishment.

With your friend I would be a little more lax in one sense, since in one way he was honorable in trying to protect your wife, his friend. I don't think I would bring up what you have done for him, rather I would simply tell him that while I appreciated the thought behind what he did, in effect the honor of it, that with the lifestyle your wife and you have, it is critical that he understand that truth is critical, both from her and from him as your stand in, so to speak. It is like sending a kid to school, where the administration and teachers are in loco parentis, and finding out they didn't tell you that some kid was bullying your kid (or your kid was a bully), or that the kid had fallen and hurt themselves.....it is about trust, in other words. I think he will understand that and to make it stronger, have your wife talk to him and tell him that she needs this, too, that she wants him to be honest and report back if she misbehaves or breaks the rules, the same way you would expect her to tell you if the friend violated the rules he was supposed to follow (which obviously is for her protection).

One general thought, not necessarily about this case, and it touches upon what another poster wrote about behaviors and D/s and control. I have known a number of lifestyle D/s relationships of various sorts, a dominant couple that had slaves, couples where H or W was sub and had a substance abuse problem, even cases where the D has problem, and what I have seen time and again is that trying to control something like drug addiction or the like through D/s directly is not the long term answer, the lure of the addiction in most cases is just too strong , no matter how strong the D/s is (and I am sure there are people who get this to work, I am talking simply what I have seen...). What I found was that a D can get an s through their control to get s to get help to overcome it, and that generally works better. One of my therapist specialties was in addiction treatment, and because she was scene friendly, had a couple of couples I knew who used her to work through this in the context of the D/s (and before someone goes crazy about the therapist divulging confidential information, she didn't, the couples told me, in fact one of them recommended me to her in dealing with a number of issues)....the control of a D is a powerful thing, but addictions and such are a bitch, and what I saw when people tried to use the D/s to control the issues directly wasn't great, caused several of the relationships to blow up (again, this is not about the OP, general observation).

For the OP, you obviously know yourself better then I do, so this again is just an observation. If someone finds themselves drinking every day at work (tolerant atmosphere or not) like that, to me that raises questions. I have been working a long time, well over 30 years between college and real life, and that to me is more then casual drinking. It either indicates a workplace that sucks and people drink to get through the day (in which case my advice would be to find a better job...) or in my experience is a sign that drinking has become ingrained, and I worry about that, when people in effect need to drink rather then want to.I don't know you, but in both the scene and also being in the trans/lgbt world, substance abuse is not unknown, and I have heard all kinds of stories, plus had friends of all kinds who found themselves where they weren't alcoholics, but realized they simply were drinking for the wrong reasons, they realized they were drinking simply to drink, not because they were enjoying it......I obviously don't know you at all, so just wanted to give you food for thought..could be totally irrelevent to your situation (which I honestly hope:), but wanted to pass that on.
 
This is a great insight and you were able to put into words what I couldn't really convey to them clearly, although I think they understood it eventually. I was a little hard on them, and because, in the moment, as a result of my anger, I interpreted his actions as almost an attempt to withhold power from me, I "gave" him the "opportunity" to have that power himself when I'm not there. I told him, in short, if you don't want to tell me about something that's fine, but you have to then handle it -- to my satisfaction -- on your own, and since you didn't voluntarily tell me about this incident tonight you are going to handle it yourself. So I had him do what I would have done, which is just your typical otk spanking with a belt (panties on since it was him, though I wouldn't be so kind). He had to wrangle her, get her dress up, and deal with her pleading and her tears. While I'm sure he has no problem doing that with the girls he sees, it was really hard for him to do it to my wife. In the end he agreed that the more severe punishments are better left to me. And while I don't think she necessarily takes advantage of him when I'm not there, I don't expect her to forget that spanking anytime soon -- though I did deal with her hitting him privately. I'm kind enough to tolerate a few outbursts directed at me but hitting other people, especially with a fist, is a huge no-no and she knew that when she did it.

As for the job advice: I appreciate it but it's really a great place to work and it's also my own venture. It's really laid back and open and what we do requires a lot of creativity -- not that drinking spawns creativity, but it can help to loosen people up. And a lot of it is also being social and interactive and outgoing not just with each other but with the people we "work for." So we always have plenty of alcohol in the office, anybody that comes in is offered a drink, and sometimes our job feels more like hanging out with friends than working so that really drives the desire to drink as well. But I've been fine lately, following my own 6pm rule without incident, and it's never that I crave alcohol, it's that the act of drinking became a kind of habit, like how when smokers quit they need to do something with their hands and mouth. So I got a blender for the office which I use to make smoothies and the other guys use to make frozen cocktails. So really when I say our drinking problem isn't really officially a problem, I mean it -- we just noticed that a bad habit was forming and wanted to stop it before it did become a problem.
 
OMG! couldnt believe i was reading that you allow someone to punish your wife and that she would put it up with it...in your situation i couldnt say but in your wifes id be like theres the door asshole take your friend with you
 
I'm torn.

Punching someone, not acceptable.

Punching someone in a lame girly-hit way, also unacceptable. HOWEVER slapping a woman who has punched you in an intentionally lame girly-hit way becomes less and less acceptable as the punch is lame. Unless slapping has been negotiated away in some way.

So someone did something really outside the parameters of acceptable inside that physical exchange, and either it's him or it's her, not "just both."

If her "craziness" is so cute to you, then this is what it looks like, this is the fun you're in for. There's nothing wrong with being attracted to drama in a self-aware way, any more than there is anything wrong with drinking too much because it's your personal prerogative (sometimes it's my bliss, dammit) but be self aware about it.
 
Last edited:
Can you believe I'm the actual crazy one in this relationship?

She's neurotic and I like it. She's also very childish in some ways, but in others she's the most mature and put-together person I've ever met. She had a really rough time a couple years ago when both her parents died within six months of each other, her mother just a week and a few days before our wedding. So, understandably, she was pretty unstable for a long time after but is becoming more and more her old self every day.

She can hit hard enough for it to hurt. I don't think she's ever left a bruise but I can see how he would react like that having never been hit by her before. I slap her as a response to being hit by her, if I can't get her to listen or obey me, and when she throws tantrums. Sometimes it takes a couple slaps to get her attention but it's pretty effective. My friend has witnessed a lot of this, so he knows it's something I tolerate even though I hadn't expressly given him permission to do it to her himself.

I found out last night that he thought I was going to beat the shit out of him for hitting her, which is why he blurted it out at me as soon as I got home. But moving forward, because this behavior is not allowed, he will slap her again if she punches him. He could even slap her if she hits him with an open hand but I don't care either way since it's no skin off my back.

The conclusion I came to is the hit and the rule breaking is on her, and the lying is on him.
 
Back
Top