Reality of fairy tales

[gauchecritic]

I'm just reading "The Science of Discworld" which is co-written along with Pratchett by Ian Stewart and Jack Cohen. It includes apparently 'Hard Science' (I assume the other 2 author's responsiblity) and it is compelling and fascinating. The blurb reads:

"... with cutting edge scientific commentary on the evolotion and development of the human mind, culture, language, art and science."

It mentions a couple called Peter and Iona Opie who are apparently regarded as 'giants' in children's literature. They collected stories from around the world and wrote several books on the subject. This is the part that provoked this thread:

"The Opies later collected and began to explain to adults, the original nursery stories like Cinderella and Rumplestiltskin. In late medieval times, Cinderella's slipper had been a fur one, not glass. And that was a euphemism, because (at least in the German version) the girls gave the prince their 'fur slipper' to try on... The story came to us through the French, and in that language 'verre' can be either glass or fur. The Grimm brothers went for the hygienic alternative, saving parents the danger of embarassing explanations.
Rumplestiltskin was an interestingly sexual parable too, a tale to programme the idea that female masturbation leads to sterility. Remember the tale? The miller's daughter, put in the barn to spin straw into gold, virginally sits on a little stick that becomes a little man... The denouement has the little man, when his name is finally identified, jumping in to 'plug' the lady very intimately and the assembled soldiers can't pull him out. In the modern bowdlerised version, this survives vestigially as the little man pushing his foot through the floor and not being able to pull it out, a total non sequitur...
... If you doubt this interpretation, enjoy the indirection: "What is his name? What is his name?" recurs in the story. What is his name? What is a stilt with a rumpled skin? Whoops. The name has an equivalent derivation in many languages too."

I'm working on "Sleeping Beauty" at the moment (far too much sex and gratuitous extras) and this is where I got the idea. Can someone tell me if fairy tales qualify for Hallowe'en?

Anyone know of the 'original' social 'meanings' of other folk tales?

Gauche

Edited to note that my birthday isn't until June.

 

[Guest]

Off hand, Gauche, some time ago I read Bruno Bettleheim's The Uses of Enchantment on the meaning and importance of fairy tales for children. I think he stuck with the laundered versions and made a lot of sense explaining how ft's worked at helping children deal with common fears. Your blurb is interesting enough to cause me to read the book.

I've read mostly Mexican and Russian folk tales and could usually see a method in their madness. Will think on it more.

Purr

 

[oggbashan]

The Opies are legendary. Most of their interpretations are accepted as reasonable.

Robert Graves did something similar for The Greek Myths.

Who said fairy stories are for children? They were intended for adults.

Og

 

[destinie21]

RED RIDING HOOD

Little Red Riding Hood was walking through the woods when suddenly the
Big Bad Wolf jumped out from behind a tree and, holding a sword to her throat,
said, "Red, I'm going to screw your brains out!"

With that, Little Red Riding Hood calmly reached into her picnic basket and
pulled out a .44 magnum and pointed it at him and said, "No you're not!
You're going to eat me, just like it says in the book!"

 

[MathGirl]

Originally posted by gauchecritic I'm just reading "The Science of Discworld" which is co-written along with Pratchett by Ian Stewart and Jack Cohen.

Dear Gauchie,
A new Pratchett book? I must get it soonest. Pratchett's books indicate that he has some sort of engineering/science background, but I'm sure he need the other guys if it's really scientific. One of his first works "Strata" set the origins of Discworld as a totally man-made world. This is completely ignored in future books, and I got the feeling Pratchett wishes he'd never written it.

I don't know about fairy tales, but the Mother Goose rhymes for children were originally social commentaries. Right, Venerable Og?
MG

 

[destinie21]

Re: Re: Reality of fairy tales

Okay seriously re: Fairy tale's

Sleeping Beauty's earliest influence apparently comes from "Perceforest," an Arthurian romance which was first printed in 1528. The next known version of the tale came from Giambattista Basile's "Sun, Moon, and Talia" also known more formally as Il Pentamerone, Day 5, Tale 5 (1636). This is the tale which is thought to have influenced Perrault's Sleeping Beauty, the version I have annotated on this site. Perrault included his version, the first to use Sleeping Beauty as a title, as the first tale in his Histories ou contes du temps passe (1697).

After Perrault, the Grimms wrote down "Briar Rose" for their own collection of tales. This version is the tamest and does not involve any of the cannibalism, adultery or rape that is found in some of the earlier renditions. The Grimm version is thought to be derived from the Perrault version which preceded it, although the Grimm brothers would have vehemently denied such a connection. The Grimm's tale is the most well-known version, barring Disney's animated feature, although Perrault's title is more commonly used. The Grimm tale ends earlier than the others with Beauty awaking with the Prince's chaste kiss. The former versions like Perrault's continued the story with the marriage and the events that followed. In many variations, the king or prince impregnates Beauty in her sleep and then leaves. She wakes up when she gives birth to her twin children.

Sleeping Beauty has been around for a long time and scholars speculate that it appears in embryonic form in a story in the Volsunga Saga. The story tells of Brynhild and her fear of being married to a cowardly man when she is banished to earth.

Perrault's story was first translated into English in Robert Samber's Histories, or Tales of Past Times (1729). A copy of that story can be found in Iona and Peter Opie's Classic Fairy Tales. Andrew Lang adapted his version from Perrault's story. Sleeping Beauty has been popular since its first publication by being printed in chapbooks and appearing in pantomimes. Perrault was also one of the last interpreters of the tale to avoid waking Beauty with a kiss. Most of the versions written and produced since then have used the kiss to awaken the sleeping princess.

here's a link to more stuff on red riding hood too

red

 

[ffreak]

I like your version of Red Riding Hood best, Mrs. D.

-FF

 

[Icingsugar]

Re: Re: Reality of fairy tales

A new Pratchett book?

Nopes.
The Science of Discworld came out in May -02
The Science of Discworld II: The Globe came out in May -03

Here is a brand new one, though:
Monstrous Regiment to be released on Oct 1.

I'll be standing in line.

 

[MathGirl]

Re: Re: Re: Reality of fairy tales

I'll be standing in line.

I'm already in front of you.
MG

 

[raphy]

Can someone tell me if fairy tales qualify for Hallowe'en?

I always thought Fairy Tales were supposed to be scary, at least in their original incarnations.

A cannhibalistic old witch thats eat little children? And eventually gets burned alive in her own oven?

A poisonous and murderous step-mother who hires a man to kill her own step-daughter and then poisons her herself when he fails to do so?

Oh yes, pretty scary stuff, taken in the right (or wrong) way.

 

[destinie21]

I always thought Fairy Tales were supposed to be scary, at least in their original incarnations.

A cannhibalistic old witch thats eat little children? And eventually gets burned alive in her own oven?

A poisonous and murderous step-mother who hires a man to kill her own step-daughter and then poisons her herself when he fails to do so?

Oh yes, pretty scary stuff, taken in the right (or wrong) way.

The original fairy tales we're supposed to inspire morals in the first renditions of such tales the step mother was often the biological mother instead the strong undertone in the story being sexual jealousy hence the downfall of the daughter was most always when she was on the threshhold of womanhood. Further more the mother or dominant female figure always sought to consume all or part of the young woman. Or have her consumed in a cannabilistic fashion.

The mrs

 

[raphy]

The original fairy tales we're supposed to inspire morals in the first renditions of such tales the step mother was often the biological mother instead the strong undertone in the story being sexual jealousy hence the downfall of the daughter was most always when she was on the threshhold of womanhood. Further more the mother or dominant female figure always sought to consume all or part of the young woman. Or have her consumed in a cannabilistic fashion.

The mrs

From something I'm writing at the moment:

"There is no greater honor than to eat the flesh of one's enemy. In this way, you inherit his power and his strength"

"You can't tell me you believe that."

"We believe it absolutely, and we practise it absolutely. It has been our way of life for many years"

and

"Such a pretty face, my dear. I've always wanted red hair"

Cannibals make for such good bad guys, don'tcha think?

No, it's not erotic, and no it's not being posted on lit..

 

[Guest]

Can someone tell me if fairy tales qualify for Hallowe'en?

Just to be sure you've got it, yes (per your gratuity).

Purr

June? On my PDA, eyup-man.

 

[Guest]

"Such a pretty face, my dear. I've always wanted red hair"

Honeybuns, can I read it? Love that line.

'dita

 

[destinie21]

From something I'm writing at the moment:

"There is no greater honor than to eat the flesh of one's enemy. In this way, you inherit his power and his strength"

"You can't tell me you believe that."

"We believe it absolutely, and we practise it absolutely. It has been our way of life for many years"

and

"Such a pretty face, my dear. I've always wanted red hair"

Cannibals make for such good bad guys, don'tcha think?

No, it's not erotic, and no it's not being posted on lit..

Have you ever read anne rice's Queen of the damned ? the movie doesn't count as there were enough plot holes in it to sink the boat while it was still docked. In any case she does cannabilism to excellence and incidentally it's the good side who indulges it.
Well the good side of evil that is.

 

[raphy]

I read it a long time ago - My ex-wife used to be very into Anne Rice and she made me read the whole gamut .. Don't recall very much about it now though.

 

[dr_mabeuse]

An ancient Egyptian creation myth has the world being formed from the spittle of the sky god Shu (or whatever his name was. )Even as a kid this just didn't seem right to me. Myths tell you what a people thought about themelves and their world, and what kind of people want to think their world came about because their god was drooling?

Sure enough, it turns out that the story was heavily bowdlerized,along with most of Egyptian art and mythology. The European vogue for things Egyptian peaked during the Victorian era, and popularizers like E. Wallis Budge were very careful to cut out all the naughty parts from myth, and art too. The Egyptians weren't above painting smut; we just never get to see it.

The real, uncensored myth of the creation had the god masturbating into the void and creating everything, not drooling.

Fairy Tales and myths are just crawling with sexual and other kinds of symbolism. Look at Jung or at Joseph Campbell.

---dr.M.

 

[pop_54]

Hmmmmm

Another subject I know bugger all about.

Simple Simon met a pieman going to the fayre.
>
Said Simple Simon to the pieman.
>
"What have you got there?"
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
"Pies you fucking retard"

Most fairy tales seem to come from very ancient times and places, a lot appear to be designed as a device to scare children rather than amuse them, also as an amusement for the sexually aware adults telling and listening. Some have very sexual undertones don't they.

More modern fairy tales and longer fantasy stories like the 'Alice' series and 'Narnia' series along with epics like JRRT's 'Middle earth' bunch were probably drug and drink induced, having all been written locally to my home town I can confirm a lot of it goes on round here.

 

[deliciously_naughty]

Re: Hmmmmm

More modern fairy tales and longer fantasy stories like the 'Alice' series and 'Narnia' series along with epics like JRRT's 'Middle earth' bunch were probably drug and drink induced, having all been written locally to my home town I can confirm a lot of it goes on round here.

Um, Narnia was written by CS Lewis (a noted theologian) as a variance on the bible tales with Aslan standing in for Christ and the children as his disciples. A dose of the bible for the kiddies. His book The Screwtape Letters is worthwhile as well (letters from an older devil to his young nephew advising him on how to be the best devil he can be).

As others have pointed out, Red Riding Hood is a story warning about the dangers of potential rape by strange men.

 

[ffreak]

Maia by Richard Adams is very steeped in the mythos of competition between mother and daughter.

The Girl in a Swing (also by Adams) has a lot to say about society's inability to understand things in today's time that were not at all uncommon not that long ago in history - fairy tale as a horror story - complete with the metaphysical - it was done as a movie in 1988 starring Meg Tilly - very dreamy approach.

This is the same author who wrote Watership Down.

-FF (and the first two both have very erotic scenes too - not for the kiddies)

 

[Mustang Sally]

Originally posted by gauchecritic
"...In late medieval times, Cinderella's slipper had been a fur one, not glass. And that was a euphemism, because (at least in the German version) the girls gave the prince their 'fur slipper' to try on... The story came to us through the French, and in that language 'verre' can be either glass or fur. The Grimm brothers went for the hygienic alternative, saving parents the danger of embarassing explanations.

From another source :

"The story of Cinderella was passed on for centuries before it was written down by Charles Perrault in 1697. While doing so he mistook the word vair, meaning ermine, for the word verre, meaning glass. By the time he realized his mistake, the story had become too popular to chage, and so instead of an ermine slipper, Cinderella wore glass."

 

[dr_mabeuse]

So let's see...

In Cinderella we have this handsome prince going around with a vagina symbol i his pocket looking for the girl whom it will fit. All the girls like to stick their feet in there and wiggle them around. Cinderella herself is a virgin who is abused by (asexual) crones and who is saved by the Prince when he finds that she's the one who fits his dream-pussy.

Those mice in the fairy tale (or were they just Disney's doing?), did they happen to be bald?

The moral? If you fuck around with princes you can't go wrong?

---dr.M.

 

[Guest]

Cinderella: I think one of its originators had a prejudice against big cunts. I did like Disney's tune, "Someday my prince will cum."

not waiting though, Perdita

 

[ffreak]

We're not talking about personal resentment, are we Perdita?

-FF (preference for driving roomier vehicles)

ps. wonder what the euphemism or symbology was for hairless entrances?

 

[Svenskaflicka]

Re: Re: Re: Reality of fairy tales

The former versions like Perrault's continued the story with the marriage and the events that followed. In many variations, the king or prince impregnates Beauty in her sleep and then leaves. She wakes up when she gives birth to her twin children.

Ouch!

And here I thought waking up with a head ache was a sure sign that the day sucked..!