Real and Make believe

[mcfbridge]

I just want to clarify something that I do believe that most of us already know. But for those who don't, here goes.

What I (and I believe most us) write is fiction. What we find erotic in stories, is not necessarily anything we would want to do or experience in rea life.

I tend to write about the humiliation and degradation of female characters. However, I have absolutely no desire to see these things happen to real people.

Someone did ask me how I can like it in stories but not in life.

In stories, there are no consequences. Characters in stories are not married. They do not have children and loved ones who care about them. In a story, no one else gets hurt by what happens to a character. I don't know about anyone else, but to me that is a huge difference.

In a story, what happens to a person happens to just that person. In life, what happens to a person can and does affect many other people.

 

[dr_mabeuse]

This a very good topic and something I've wondered about a lot: when you write about something, how much responsibility are you takling for the actuality?

To take an extreme example, if someone writes snuff porn (which wouldn't be allowed here) but says that they really don't like it or find it acceptable, don't you have to wonder about them? I mean, if it's such a turn-off for them, why on earth do they write about it?

We all have lots of fantasies we wouldn't act on - like group sex or being forced - but what really stops us from pursuing them is more likely the social consequences, and these are fantasies we all can kind of understand and share.

I'm not picking on mcf here. It's something I wonder about all authors who deal with edgy stuff. If a guy writes a gay story, doesn't that make you think he at least has a passing interest in the gay experience? Or do you think that it's just something he writes as an exercise, to see if he can do it? What if it's a theme in all his stories?

---dr.M.

 

[dreampilot79]

There are many things that turn me on and I would love to try... IF THERE WERE NO CONSEQUENCES.

Which means I am unlikely to do them.

Still it is a compliment to me when I get pasted by someone making a comment about ME from one of my stories. They have associated with the story and accuse me of being a character. I sort of think I did something right.

As for being responsible for someone else doing what my fiction calls for..... that is up to them. People have been sucessfully enguaged in group sex since the dawn of time.... they have also ruined lives trying it.... It is for them to decide.

 

[wornoutkeyboard]

I think consequences are the key. There are many things I desire (for example.. I am married but would greatly desire to know what it was like to experience that warm rush of adrenaline you get when kissing someone new....but I wouldn't do it because of the consequences involved).

However...like Dr. M...I often consider those who write edgier things (you perverts!). On the whole I don't think that as a writer you can be responsible for influencing the actions of others. If you were so on the edge of doing somthing that reading about it makes you do it...then you were looking for an excuse to do it and anything else would probably have found something else. However.... I'm now going to disagree with my previous statement for two reasons:

1) I think some times of fantasy can be addictive and usually that isn't too much a problem...but where it begins to get trickier is when the lines of fantasy and reality get blurred and where there is a potential for harm. And I'm not just talking about emotionally hurting someone you love... I mean serious harm. Some people fantasize about having sex with a decapitated person. Obviously someone has to get really hurt in order for that to become reality. I think writing about those kinds of things can help blur that line between fantasy and reality and in that sense the writer can become an unbeknownst accomplice to the crime.

2) As a writer I take responsibility for what I write. I'm not saying everyone else out there has to. But for the record, I take responsibility. If I were to write about raping a woman and then someone were to read my work and then do it...I wouldn't feel okay about it. I would feel very very responsible. I know the way reading a book can change me inside and perhaps it it huburous, but I think my writing affects people (at least I hope it does) and I am willing to stand up and take the credit for it, be it good or bad and then respond accordingly. Similar things have happened to some popular writers. One example that comes to mind is a story Stephen King wrote about a student who kills people at his school. After columbine he requested to remove it from publication and has said publically that he feels a weighty sense of responsibility.

But on the other hand....I think censorship is a tricky plaything. At what point do we draw the line? And is it okay to draw the line in a "free" society? These are questions far too big for one little WOK to answer.

~WOK

 

[Hulder]

I think there is a lot to what mcf says, about there being no actual consequences in a story, whereas irl people might get hurt. In fantasies there are no limits, no shame, no social barriers which hold us in place. We can free our imagination from all restraints and act out things that we wouldn't dream of doing irl.

To take an extreme example, if someone writes snuff porn (which wouldn't be allowed here) but says that they really don't like it or find it acceptable, don't you have to wonder about them? I mean, if it's such a turn-off for them, why on earth do they write about it?

People are turned on by many things, and it could be that it's not the snuff that excites such a writer, but the freedom to write it, to break boundaries and to shock and stun potential readers. I'm not a psychologist so i really don't know, but it's what came to mind when i read the question. And i would certainly prefer it if such urges were acted out through writing instead of living it.

If a guy writes a gay story, doesn't that make you think he at least has a passing interest in the gay experience? Or do you think that it's just something he writes as an exercise, to see if he can do it? What if it's a theme in all his stories?

If a guy writes a gay story, i would think that he was fascinated by the thought, but not nessecarily that he wanted to act on that fascination. I know that i have many fantasies that involve things that i wouldn't do irl, and in fact a lesbian experience is one of them. On paper i find it sensual and exciting, but the times i've tried it irl it has been highly disappointing, not to mention embarrassing, lol. If it was, as you say, a recurring theme in someone's stories, then i might think there was more to it then mere fascination.


Another interesting question is wether a writer is, at least in part, responsible if a reader acts out the fantasies described in a story? Rape, incest and worse, can we hide behind freedom of speach if our stories are used as a weapon to hurt and damage other people? My first instinct is to say no, people who want to hurt others will find a way regardless of what stories they read. Yet it is an interesting question, and goes hand in hand with for instance many people's tendencies to blame the violence in todays society on television and movies.


Hugs!!!

 

[rgraham666]

In my opinion, all erotica is a fantasy of some type.

As the people who hang out here know, I've been kinda outside the world for a long time. So my fantasies tend to be about the very simple pleasures of falling into or being in a relationship. That's why almost all my stuff is Romance or Erotic Couplings.

Dr_m's point about snuff porn is making me re-think writing a story bouncing around in my head. I've been putting off writing it as it requires me to use a dark part of my imagination that I would rather not access. One of the two main characters dies during this story, and in a quite hideous manner. I hadn't considered it snuff porn until now. It was intended as a political allegory dressed up as a BDSM piece.

So, yet another reason to not write it.

 

[BooMerengue]

I had to remove a story I had written as a favor to someone else because I got almost 50 emails/feedbacks from folks asking to roleplay etc. I'm too far over 50, never married and celibate. The real me is so far removed from my stories its laughable. And, sorry to say, I don't have a lot of unrealized fantasies.

I think a writer has some amount of responsibility/accountability in their stories but how much I wouldn't even guess at. A smidgeon, maybe.

Just another humble opinion...

(I wish we had gotten a peace symbol icon with the new skin)

 

[brightlyiburn]

This is a good question!
Recently, I've taken a step into the Non-consent/Reluctance genre. If you read it, you'll see it's more reluctance. It reflects my submissive side, which I've done a lot to nuture. Why? Well, thanks to clashing with my father, I had (and still have) a lot of issues with men. It started as fear but became anger and temper, making it very difficult for me to interact with men or have relationships with them. By accepting my submissive side, I've been able to work through some of that.
Anyway, I put a warning in my story at the beginning (which, as far as I'm concerned, removes the writer from most responsibility). Someone decided that simply because I write romance stories, they would disregard that warning. This was someone who claims to have been raped and decided to get all Holier-Than-Thou on me about it. As far as I'm concerned, I don't think the responsibility for what she may or may not have felt falls on me. I catergorized the story properly, included a warning, all of which she chose to ignore.

It's a fantasy, plain and simple. Would I act on it? Not beyond a little simple roleplaying. There are plenty of things that turn me on that I wouldn't actually do in real life, and usually not because of the consequences. Like, for example, group sex. Yeah, as a fantasy it's great. As a reality...well, I'm the kind of person who feels like three is a crowd, so I wouldn't want to do that in real life. For the most part you wouldn't find me acting too submissive outside of fantasy, either, because I don't have a very submissive personality most of the time.
I think while there are somethings we fantasize about because the consequences would be huge, I think some of it is also stuff we find arousing, but for one reason or another don't consider the reality terribly appealing.

 

[BlackShanglan]

Not to go too far down the Freudian turnpike, but I do think that in erotica as in any other form of literature we do well to remember that in more refined art (beyond the verbatim report of stroking off to the image of one's neighbor undressing) one often speaks through symbol. While it may on the surface seem affected to speak of this in relationship to erotica, I think that the basic tenets still hold true - especially when one realizes how deeply entrenched the concept of power is in many sexual fantasies. In reference, for example, to the thread on humiliation, what one person sees a sadism or viciousness, another might perceive as a powerful symbol for control and submission. Having more than passing acquaintance with a number of sexual fetishes that society tends to frown upon, I can say from the occasional point of view of the "abused" that some people find this extremely erotic.

While I agree that it probably does say something about the individual's psyche, I'd argue that it may not speak directly - as symbol often does not. One may be fascinated by the emblematic power of an image while also recognizing that it would be immoral, unethical, dangerous or even silly to act upon it. As early as 150 years ago Krafft-Ebbing had a phrase for it - "idealized" fetishism, i.e., a fantasy that the patient him/herself had no urge to actually fulfill, in the understanding that the reality would not be the same as the symbolic fantasy. Certainly erotic fiction seems a likely and relatively safe place to express these sorts of desires.

Some works rely more on symbol than others, of course. Much of what is posted here might be seen as straightforward wishful thinking. But much is not. Certainly one of the things I enjoy about a category like "non-human" is that it moves more toward symbol, often imagining things physically impossible, but deeply resonant on a mental level. Again, of course, not all erotica is like that - but some of it is. I think we realize this on some level; at least, I've been pleasantly surprised to see that no one has read my latest as a glorification of bestiality, despite the nature of the sex scene. It took a leap of faith to post it, but I feel that that has been repaid, and generously. The most common word I've seen applied to it is "romance," which I think is a beautiful testament to the fact that one can, without dragging in needlessly complex theory and language, speak symbolically and be heard.

Shanglan

 

[Lauren Hynde]

To take an extreme example, if someone writes snuff porn (which wouldn't be allowed here) but says that they really don't like it or find it acceptable, don't you have to wonder about them? I mean, if it's such a turn-off for them, why on earth do they write about it?

I think it's a bit dangerous to make a generalisation like that.

I agree that in our context (at Literotica, that is), you're absolutely right. I would never write an Incest story, for example, even if I would never act or condone with it, if the seed of desire wasn't there. If I weren't interested on Incest on some level, I wouldn't write the story. My time is too precious to be wasted on stuff I have no interest in.

On the other hand, would it be legitimate to assume that Ellis has sociopathic tendencies because he wrote American Psycho, for example? Or is it more legitimate to assume that the theme of sociopathy was chosen because he felt it was the best-fitting metaphor to tell a tale?

 

[NoJo]

I think it's a bit dangerous to make a generalisation like that.

I agree that in our context (at Literotica, that is), you're absolutely right. I would never write an Incest story, for example, even if I would never act or condone with it, if the seed of desire wasn't there. If I weren't interested on Incest on some level, I wouldn't write the story. My time is too precious to be wasted on stuff I have no interest in.

On the other hand, would it be legitimate to assume that Ellis has sociopathic tendencies because he wrote American Psycho, for example? Or is it more legitimate to assume that the theme of sociopathy was chosen because he felt it was the best-fitting metaphor to tell a tale?

Michel Houellebecq

 

[Lauren Hynde]

Michel Houellebecq

Now, there's a thought too.

 

[msboy8]

I think it's a bit dangerous to make a generalisation like that.

I agree that in our context (at Literotica, that is), you're absolutely right. I would never write an Incest story, for example, even if I would never act or condone with it, if the seed of desire wasn't there. (Bolded by msboy8) If I weren't interested on Incest on some level, I wouldn't write the story. My time is too precious to be wasted on stuff I have no interest in.

On the other hand, would it be legitimate to assume that Ellis has sociopathic tendencies because he wrote American Psycho, for example? Or is it more legitimate to assume that the theme of sociopathy was chosen because he felt it was the best-fitting metaphor to tell a tale?

I on the other hand will write about things, incest, non-consent, etc. even if I dont have an interest. It seems that the only thing I have a problem writing is Non-Erotic stories, hehe. The same goes with me when I write in SRP threads. I am playing-a-role and try to put my all into it. I certainly would not actually do many of the things I write about.

Also, if you get involved with a Survivor Contest, you must write in many categories. My only problem there is that I tend to assume my characters idenities, which is sometimes emotionally troubling.

 

[Lauren Hynde]

I on the other hand will write about things, incest, non-consent, etc. even if I dont have an interest.

Of course, but you're doing it because you have a declared interest in writing stories in all categories here, for the sake of writing or because you're a Survivor contestant. But if all thing are equal and you opt for writing constantly on a given category, it can only be because you have an interest in that specific category or because you have a specific interest in writing in that category.

 

[CharleyH]

This a very good topic and something I've wondered about a lot: when you write about something, how much responsibility are you takling for the actuality?

To take an extreme example, if someone writes snuff porn (which wouldn't be allowed here) but says that they really don't like it or find it acceptable, don't you have to wonder about them? I mean, if it's such a turn-off for them, why on earth do they write about it?

I'm not picking on mcf here. It's something I wonder about all authors who deal with edgy stuff. If a guy writes a gay story, doesn't that make you think he at least has a passing interest in the gay experience? Or do you think that it's just something he writes as an exercise, to see if he can do it? What if it's a theme in all his stories?

---dr.M.

you talking about de Sade? Have you read his work ,(yawn) but really have you . . . and is there something wrong with you?

I don't exactly write snuff porn, but had had an idea (like RG) bouncing around in my head. The emphasis is on edge play, and for all intents and purposes would be an exploration of psyche, and the question from a theoretical point, as to whether sadaism and masochism can co-exist, or must they cancel themselves out. Edge play and possibly murder, would be a part of this because that's the very nature of my query.

I have no doubt that such extreme sexual horror will turn someone on, somewhere. Is it my purpose? Paolo Pasolini did a film called Salo. It discusted many people, but to me it was a fascinating exploration on multiple levels from the nature of fascism, through the study of fairy tales and to how we react toward our own fantasy. Does my enjoyment of this film make me sick? If I were to write this story that is bouncing in my head, does that mean something is wrong with me? I don't think so. Anyhow . . .

We write what interests us, sure. I love lesbians! I'll say it louder!!! But we also write to stretch our imaginations as writers, to push ourselves as artists. Certainly, I don't find sticking to the rules, nor in one niche as particularly exciting, and I would hate to always be known as a mediocre writer. Those who succeed push the limits, and rip at norms, why should erotica be any different than any other piece of literature.

 

[msboy8]

Of course, but you're doing it because you have a declared interest in writing stories in all categories here, for the sake of writing or because you're a Survivor contestant. But if all thing are equal and you opt for writing constantly on a given category, it can only be because you have an interest in that specific category or because you have a specific interest in writing in that category.

Perhaps you are right. I personally find that if I try to figure out why I do things, I really can't. It turns into a waste of time (Like a dog chasing its tail).

 

[yui]

I both agree and disagree with much of what has been said on this thread.

I think the idea that a writer can/will only write what he wishes in his heart of hearts will come true, is utterly ridiculous to the point of being stupid.

I agree with Shanglan/others that there is often a great deal of symbolism in the stories (even, (gasp!) here on Lit); but I think many times, that symbolism is lost on the audience and is often not even consciously visible to the writer.

I don't sleep with my brother. I don't want to sleep with my brother. I think it is precisely this desire not to enact my kinky nasty fantasy that gives it the power of f-a-n-t-a-s-y. Everything in my stories is idealized, it simply could not exist in the real world. In fact, in my stuff, you could remove the sibling element easily enough. It's more about love and obsession and feeling like your skin is too small to hold all the emotions inside of you.

It is the fact that I will never act on my fantasy that gives me the power to revel in it guiltlessly.

Luck,

Yui

P.S. Dear Anon, No. I'm not sleeping with my brother.

 

[dr_mabeuse]

Regarding the use of violence and the like, I think there's a difference in context when it's used in literature vs. when it's used in porn. Brett Easton Ellis used hyperviolence to make a point, but if it was a theme that he used again and again, and if he seemed to be getting sexually aroused from it as we do with porn, wouldn't that affect your opinion of him?

I mean, if you're writing a horror story, you're going to put horrifying stuff in there. But porn is different. It has a lot more wish fulfillment about it.

---dr.M.

 

[rgraham666]

P.S. Dear Anon, No. I'm not sleeping with my brother.

If you were, do you think I can talk your family into adopting me?

 

[BlackShanglan]

I think many times, that symbolism is lost on the audience and is often not even consciously visible to the writer.

Agreed, but I would argue also something of the point. When we speak symbolically - at least if one is willing to walk with Freud's ideas a little - we speak not only the language of art and literature, but the language that our own minds use to communicate with us. Hence all that business over on the dream thread. I agree that some dreams are just random neural firings, but some of mine, at least, speak with such obvious symbolic weight that it would be hard to argue against them. For the reason, Freud suggested, we reveal ourselves in literature without meaning to. We start manipulating symbols and may end up telling ourselves and the world something that we didn't mean to say.

Similarly, symbols can act upon us even when we don't recognize them as such. I don't imagine that many of those who have read "Will" consciously see in it what I see so far as symbolic values. I don't think, however, that they are entirely lost on the audience. That no one has read it as offensive strikes me as the first sign that they're getting something of what I intended; some of the private comments have really touched me, especially one that read something like "I love this story, and I don't know why, but it really touched me." I don't think that reader needs to enunciate the symbolism in an intellectual way; I think it was understood.

And I would add that Dr. M. has a fair point about repetition. In fact, I think that really the best indicator of whether the material is exploration or pathology. It's one thing to ask how a situaton might evoke powerful emotion, hold symbolic weight, or communicate an important idea with substantial impact. It's another to return to the same image over and over ... that sounds a lot more like a sign that the author simply gets off on it. And if that image is death or torment, then yes - I find it disturbing.

Shanglan

 

[yui]

And if that image is death or torment, then yes - I find it disturbing.

Shanglan

Agreed. I suppose it is the fact that I don't find death, torment, degradation, etc. erotic, so that doesn't come up on my radar as a sexual fantasy. That is my own narrowness of vision. I am honestly very disturbed by the fact that there are people who find those sorts of extreme images sexually arousing and I suppose that mentally, I put that level of "fantasy" in a very different category from my own (mostly) benign kinks.

Luck,

Yui

 

[yui]

If you were, do you think I can talk your family into adopting me?

Absolutely! Because if I sleep with a brother, you can be he will be adopted.

 

[CharleyH]

I would like to diverge to the film 'Salo' again because there is a movie that is genuinely sexual, extreme SM, but ultimately one of the most fascinating I have even seen. Some people were not bothered by it, most walked out of it and I'm sure certain scenes would have been a turn on to someone. It was a film that was banned for years. The question I had for those who left the film, was why. I posit they left because they could not stand the sight of their own repressed fantasies . . . why . . . because the film actually never shows much, but rather takes you to the extreme and dumps you there to make your own conclusion about what is going to happen in the next scene without ever showing it. Hence, you need to extend your own fantasy about the action, alternately making it your fantasy and not that of the filmmaker . . . and it is purely sexual fantasy/horror.

Those who stayed. Is there something wrong with them for being able to tolerate their dark fantasies. Were they, in deed, more comfortable in their own repressed sexuality..

Can porn not, in part or whole, be to challenge a reader in the same way? And if not, why not . . . and if not, is porn then relegated to hustler et al . . . is that the simple sum of porn and erotica?

Isn't erotic horror the more extreme of the same repressions in horror films and literature? And alternately the same wish fulfillments.

 

[rgraham666]

Absolutely! Because if I sleep with a brother, you can be he will be adopted.

My day is complete.

 

[brightlyiburn]

I would never write an Incest story, for example, even if I would never act or condone with it, if the seed of desire wasn't there. If I weren't interested on Incest on some level, I wouldn't write the story. My time is too precious to be wasted on stuff I have no interest in.

Hold up a sec, here.
Isn't it possible to write about something even if you have no interest in it? I'm not saying necessarily that you write an incest story with the intent of getting turned on by it. But it's the reality of the thing...you might not be turned on by rape, but it's something that happens. Do you, therefor, not write about it at all? Even if you don't like something, it can be a valuable tool in writing.
I know that wasn't exactly the point, but I wanted you to consider what you said. I find it hard to believe that you simply ignore any elements you don't like, but that is a little what it sounded like.