Reading Pope ...

[BlackShanglan]

... is like falling in love with someone and watching him die at the same time. Exquisite, but painful. Amazing that the world ever held such talent. Agonizing to meet the man in his words, have him seem as real as if he was standing next to you, and then know that he's been dead for two hundred and fifty years.

Funny. God, the man is funny. I was laughing so hard that a colleague came to see what on earth I was doing. Trenchant wit? God help me that I should ever be on the wrong side of it. And beautiful. Stunningly beautiful. A clean, sharp, brilliant style that I could never touch.

If you read nothing else, read Pope.

(And Swift, I might add - his friend.)

Shanglan

 

[minsue]

I must admit, I don't believe I've ever read Pope.

*hangs head in shame*

Do I get any points for reading his diary that you've so kindly & beautifully written?

 

[Goldie Munro]

I have read Pope - a long time ago - didnt do anything for me then but maybe if I went back to it...

 

[BlackShanglan]

I must admit, I don't believe I've ever read Pope.

*hangs head in shame*

Do I get any points for reading his diary that you've so kindly & beautifully written?

All the points you want I just hope that Himself doesn't strike me dead from on high for insinuating that he slept with prostitutes. It sounds bizarre, but I meant it well ... I just wanted to see that man in love.

One thing with Pope is, most of us are actually familiar with any number of his words. If, for example, you've ever heard the phrases "A little learning is a dangerous thing," "Fools rush in where angels fear to tread," "To err is human, to forgive divine," or "True wit is Nature to advantage dressed / What oft was thought, but ne'er so well expressed," then you'll have a fine familiar feeling when reading "An Essay on Criticism," Pope's work from which all of those phrases are taken. He has wonderful, trenchant insights into writing that every author should read.

He's also just howlingly funny at times. I was reading his "Epistle to Dr. Arbuthnot" today, and his image of the hordes of mediocre writers beseiging him with requests for prefaces, introductions to publishers, recommendations to patrons, and revisions of their work was brilliant. This little sample I particularly enjoyed - Pope reacting to those who tried to praise or explain away his physical infirmities (he was 4' 6", with a twisted spine, frequent illness, and a hunchback) in order to suck up to him:

There are, who to my person pay their court:
I cough like Horace, and, though lean, am short,
Ammon's great Son [Alexander the Great] one shoulder had too high,
Such Ovid's nose, and "Sir! you have an Eye—"
Go on, obliging creatures, make me see
All that disgrac'd my betters, met in me:
Say for my comfort, languishing in bed,
"Just so immortal Maro held his head:"
And when I die, be sure you let me know
Great Homer died three thousand years ago.



Shanglan

 

[LadyJeanne]

I remember my high school English teacher introducing us to satire with Swift's "A Modest Proposal..."

Poor man; I think we snickered more trying to pronounce "The Diary of Samuel Pepys" than at the suggestion that poor Irish children should just be eaten to prevent them from being a burden.

 

[minsue]

I've read many excerpts of both Pope and Swift, but nothing complete.

Thanks for that bit, Horsey. Loved it.

 

[BlackShanglan]

I remember my high school English teacher introducing us to satire with Swift's "A Modest Proposal..."

Poor man; I think we snickered more trying to pronounce "The Diary of Samuel Pepys" than at the suggestion that poor Irish children should just be eaten to prevent them from being a burden.

Pepys' description of the great fire of London, though ... riveting stuff, to me. Or did she let you read the bits about Pol?

I've always loved Swift. "Savage indignation" indeed; no one could match him in that. "The most pernicious race of odious little vermin that nature ever suffered to crawl upon the surface of the earth" - now really, what better description of humankind has ever been offered? Plus, of course, he had the good judgment to recognize that the horses are the only sensible ones.

Good man.

By the way, if you ever get a chance to read some of the letters between Swift and Pope, that's some amazing reading. It seems impossible that the world didn't explode when those two minds were placed in the same room.

Shanglan

 

[BlackShanglan]

I've read many excerpts of both Pope and Swift, but nothing complete.

Thanks for that bit, Horsey. Loved it.

Swift's "A Modest Proposal" is relatively short and a good example of his talents. Personally, I've always loved "Gulliver's Travels" - it's amazingly compact and swift reading, yet deep and with layers upon layers as well. It's one of those amazing books that is everything - a great adventure story, a savage indictment of humanity, an attack on the morals and politics of the day, and a cry for help and reason from someone who can't, whatever he says and however he lashes at them, quite give up on trying to get people to just be decent to each other, for once.

There's a story out there by Ray Bradbury, the title of which I have forgotten, that is about someone who invents a special time machine that lets him visit some famous authors on their deathbeds. It's a wonderful, touching story from a writer's perspective. I can't remember if the character goes to Swift, or if it's just me remembering how much I wish I could. Or to his last lucid moment. What I wouldn't give to be able to let him know that 250 years hence, everyone will still recognize him as a genius.

I do remember the last lines of the story. The hero goes to a dingy boarding house in France, in 1900. His last, gentle word is - "Oscar."

Ahh. Good story.

Shanglan

 

[LadyJeanne]

Pepys' description of the great fire of London, though ... riveting stuff, to me. Or did she let you read the bits about Pol?

I've always loved Swift. "Savage indignation" indeed; no one could match him in that. "The most pernicious race of odious little vermin that nature ever suffered to crawl upon the surface of the earth" - now really, what better description of humankind has ever been offered? Plus, of course, he had the good judgment to recognize that the horses are the only sensible ones.

Good man.

By the way, if you ever get a chance to read some of the letters between Swift and Pope, that's some amazing reading. It seems impossible that the world didn't explode when those two minds were placed in the same room.

Shanglan

I recall reading his entries about the fire and comparing it to the Chicago fire. But mostly I remember Pepys was meticulous about his details, the cost of a purchase of gloves and household items...

Pol? Have no idea, but your winking smilie makes me thinks it's something diry. Do tell...

 

[BlackShanglan]

Pol? Have no idea, but your winking smilie makes me thinks it's something diry. Do tell...

Perhaps we should file it under "purchase of household item" ... or household staff member. *grin*

Shanglan

 

[LadyJeanne]

Perhaps we should file it under "purchase of household item" ... or household staff member. *grin*

Shanglan

They never teach this stuff in school properly so that it captures our attention. We'd have loved to read about dear Pol, but no. It was gloves and shovels.

 

[BlackShanglan]

They never teach this stuff in school properly so that it captures our attention. We'd have loved to read about dear Pol, but no. It was gloves and shovels.

More's the pity. Pepys actually got quite elaborate with the sexual bits. He wrote many of them in shorthand, and some in a mixture of French, Latin, and Italian to make sure that his wife didn't get to read them. But then when he died, he willed the (bound, complete, and carefully revised and polished) copies of the diary to a college library, together with books that included the shorthand he used. What an interesting little game Mr. Pepys was playing.

Gloves and shovels, indeed.

Shanglan

 

[ishtat]

Pope

... is like falling in love with someone and watching him die at the same time. Exquisite, but painful. Amazing that the world ever held such talent. Agonizing to meet the man in his words, have him seem as real as if he was standing next to you, and then know that he's been dead for two hundred and fifty years.

Funny. God, the man is funny. I was laughing so hard that a colleague came to see what on earth I was doing. Trenchant wit? God help me that I should ever be on the wrong side of it. And beautiful. Stunningly beautiful. A clean, sharp, brilliant style that I could never touch.

If you read nothing else, read Pope.

(And Swift, I might add - his friend.)

Shanglan

The problem with Pope is that you cannot just read him without some knowledge of his life and the social history of his times because so much of his work was topical.

If you are really, really, really lazy "The Frank Muir book, An Irreverant Companion to Social History"(Heinemann, soft cover Corgi) will give you a taste of the mans genius and of his inner demons. It is easy to get hold of and also gives some comments by his contemporaries which are worth reading themselves. It'll be enough to hook you into reading his work and perhaps a more substantial biography.

You'll find yourself thinking within two minutes what a total bastard and then seconds later you'll ache with laughing.

 

[BlackShanglan]

Agreed, the biography helps a great deal. But then, I came to him having read some of his work a long time ago, but more recently encountering the biography first, then re-reading his work. That actually kept me from ever having any "you bastard!" moments - I was too entirely on his side. When one thinks what it meant to be a Catholic and a disabled man in his day, it's difficult to have anything but admiration for him. To watch him stand at bay, lashing the hounds off of him and sneering them down with perfect disdain, I can't help but cheer for his spirit and his bright, brilliant force of will. Anyone could have lain abed whining and "poor me-ing" through the painful life he led; what I love about him is that he instead chooses the "come on, if you think you're hard enough!" route.

 

[Alex De Kok]

Project Gutenberg has works by both Pope and Swift (and many others) available free online as e-books. You'll need to scroll down the pages I've linked to get to Pope and Swift - the links are just to the 'P' and 'S' authors!

Plenty of reading there.

Alex

 

[oggbashan]

Pope's translation of The Iliad

I remember reading this translation a long time ago and enjoying it more than the modern versions.

I like the first paragraph of Pope's introduction (from Project Gutenburg - see Alex's post above):

"Scepticism is as much the result of knowledge, as knowledge is of
scepticism. To be content with what we at present know, is, for the
most part, to shut our ears against conviction; since, from the very
gradual character of our education, we must continually forget, and
emancipate ourselves from, knowledge previously acquired; we must set
aside old notions and embrace fresh ones; and, as we learn, we must be
daily unlearning something which it has cost us no small labour and
anxiety to acquire."

Og

 

[BlackShanglan]

Wonderful quote, Oggs. Something else I admire about Pope - he sets very high standards for himself. He's as severe with his own development as he is with anyone else's.

 

[carsonshepherd]

"Unlearn what you have learned..." -Yoda

 

[BlackShanglan]

"Unlearn what you have learned..." -Yoda

You're an evil men to quote Yoda to me