Rape Sentence;

[Pure]

Ogg said,

The news report that started this thread shows a practice that is not only abhorrent to most Muslims but also to most Pakistanis. That is why the perpetrators are in jail.

I don't entirely 'buy' this. I suspect a majority of rural Pakistanis do not have a serious problem with this, or at least would not if the local religious authorities called for that punishment.

Indeed, the story suggests the townspeople will likely aquiesce in her being killed by the rich guy's people, as soon as the guard leaves. I.,e., they have not, and will not rally to her defense, as would follow if Ogg's theory of majority disapproval were true.

Similarly I don't think the national government is opposed, trying to stamp out the practice, etc. It's simply embarrassed and trying to appear humane while under international scrutiny, and while the US Congress is shoveling billions their way (to help fight the terrorists who disregard the rules of civilization).

If you (Ogg) recall a similar incident in Nigeria, where a pregnant adultress was to be stoned, and the male let go free, it took international pressure on the Federal government of Nigeria to make them exert pressure at the local level. IOW the national policy, in Nigeria and Pakistan is--in general, and when the foreign press isn't running stories-- to turn a blind eye to certain atrocious, unjust punishments meted out by the local authorities and rich folks who control them.

 

[oggbashan]

Pakistan is not Nigeria. You might as well compare the US and Ecuador - they are closer together.

Nigeria has a different problem where two cultures are opposed in one country and they have had more than one war betwen the various groups.

The local population in some areas of Pakistan would support the 'punishment' and the local big guys. Dissenters do not have a voice. If they tried to object, they too would be victims. Those who are allied to the big boys support them. Some Pakistanis are treated by other Pakistanis almost as black slaves were in the US before the Civil War between the States.

There are parts of Pakistan that are effectively beyond the Government's control and the local war-lords and fanatics run those areas. The Pakistan government is trying to get a grip on the situation because those areas are also hiding places for Al-Queda and the Taleban.

The government knows that stories like this are bad for them but short of killing tens of thousands of their citizens they have no option but to try to change cultural practices that have generations of precedents. That will be a long process. In the meantime women suffer - as they always have.

Og

 

[sweetnpetite]

Ogg said,

The news report that started this thread shows a practice that is not only abhorrent to most Muslims but also to most Pakistanis. That is why the perpetrators are in jail.

I don't entirely 'buy' this. I suspect a majority of rural Pakistanis do not have a serious problem with this, or at least would not if the local religious authorities called for that punishment.

Indeed, the story suggests the townspeople will likely aquiesce in her being killed by the rich guy's people, as soon as the guard leaves. I.,e., they have not, and will not rally to her defense, as would follow if Ogg's theory of majority disapproval were true.

Not everyone is an activist. there is much danger in standing up for what you believe in, and many people are not willing to risk it (even when the stakes are not so high), no matter how strongly they believe.

Many people will disaprove, few will put there own lives on the line. this goes anywhere at any time. not everybody who felt that segregation was wrong participated in freedom rides or other acts to protest or end it. not everybody who feels that gays should/should not be allowed to marry take a stand and actually *do* something about it. Even though doing so would *not* put our lives in danger for the most part)

Peoples silence on the issue, while perhaps deplorable, does not always indicate there true beliefs of the same.

Nothing can be infered from the information given, about the attitudes of the individuals within the culture.

 

[Pure]

Hi Sweet,

You perhaps have a point, in the abstract, that the one article does not prove much, but your statement is does not do the topic justice, nor exhibit your general and usual awareness of women's issues in the countries involved.

Nothing can be infered from the information given, about the attitudes of the individuals within the culture.

Surely you know from a history of the US south that the actions of a few [sheriffs, KKK] can be passively approved and accepted by many; that's why no one was ever tried, and if tried, convicted:

Be that as it may, let's look at some 'individuals':

The case is well known, having attracted the attention of Human Rights and Women's Rights groups.

Note below, the police initial failure to do a criminal investigation. Note the rape was in the presence of many townspeople. Note the general problem of tribal councils. All these are "individuals within the culture"

You might also note the mention of an earlier case, elsewhere, of a death sentence against an illicit couple.

I've already given a 'walk' to the majority, the 'man'/'woman' on the street, ignorant and misled by leaders. But the local police and tribal councils and the rich folks who own them deserve something dire.

{human rights watch article and letter to Chief Justice in Pakistan}

http://www.hrw.org/press/2002/07/pak0712.htm

HRW Mailing List
Pakistan: Tribal Councils Source of Abuse

(New York, July 12, 2002) The gang rape case of Mukhtaran Bibi highlights the urgent need to investigate the role of tribal councils in Pakistan, Human Rights Watch said today. Human Rights Watch sent a letter this week to President Musharraf urging scrutiny of the role of such councils in abuses against women in Pakistan.


"These tribal councils must not be used as vehicles to deny women their rights and physically assault them. Pakistani officials must ensure that tribal councils operate in ways that respect the rule of law and women's equality." LaShawn R. Jefferson
Executive Director of the Women's Rights Division of Human Rights Watch

On June 22, during a Mastoi tribal council meeting in the village of Meerwala, in southern Punjab, four men, including one of the tribal council members, allegedly raped Mukhtaran Bibi, a thirty-year-old member of the Gujjar tribe. The rape, which occurred in the presence of a large number of villagers, was intended as "punishment" for the conduct of her brother, Abdul Shaqoor, who had been seen with an unchaparoned woman from the Mastoi Tribe. The woman, Salma Bibi, is now reportedly in police custody with her mother.

Mukhtaran Bibi was forced to return home naked after the rape before a crowd of Mastoi villagers. The victim is reported to have said that members of the Mastoi also raped her brother, and that police allegedly asked for a bribe of 11,000 rupees (U.S.$180) for his release from police custody.


In its letter, Human Rights Watch said that although a number of individuals identified as perpetrators in the assaults against Mukhtaran Bibi have been arrested, the Pakistan government authorities need to ensure that investigations proceed with respect for due process and accountability for the offenses committed, and provide for the full protection of the victims and their families. Human Rights Watch also requested clarification on the role of the police in the case, particularly the allegations of bribery by the police and the reported detentions of Abdul Shaqoor, Salma Bibi, and her mother.

In a 1999 report, Crime or Custom: Violence against Women in Pakistan, Human Rights Watch documented the high level of violence against women in Pakistan and the often insurmountable institutional and legal discrimination that impedes and discourages women from seeking justice, and, in the worst cases, traumatizes them further.

-----
Letter to President Pervez Musharraf

July 12, 2002 Dear President Musharraf: We appreciate the government's prompt response to the recent Mukhtaran Bibi case in Meerwala, Punjab. However, we write to express a number of concerns about the role of the police in this case and, more generally, the exercise of authority by tribal councils.



On June 22, during a Mastoi tribal council meeting in the village of Meerwala, in southern Punjab province, four men, including one of the tribal council members, allegedly raped Mukhtaran Bibi, a thirty-year-old member of the Gujjar tribe. The rape, which occurred in the presence of a large number of villagers, was intended as "punishment" for the conduct of her brother, Abdul Shaqoor, who had been seen with an unchaparoned woman, Salma Bibi - who is now reportedly in police custody along with her mother - from the Mastoi tribe.

After the rape, Mukhtaran Bibi's attackers forced her to return home naked, passing before a crowd of Mastoi villagers. Mukhtaran Bibi did not initially file a complaint with the police because she and her family feared further reprisals by the Mastoi tribe. Earlier in the day, members of the Mastoi tribe reportedly abducted Mukhtaran Bibi's brother, Abdul Shaqoor, who is between thirteen and fifteen years old, and sodomized him over a period of several hours.

Although the police negotiated the release of Shaqoor from his abductors, they failed at that time to launch a criminal investigation or arrest those implicated in his abduction and rape. Shaqoor's family alleges that the police released their son from custody only after the family paid the police a bribe of 11,000 rupees (U.S. $180). We understand that the local police have arrested a number of individuals identified as perpetrators in the assault against Mukhtaran Bibi.

The investigation into this and other related cases should ensure respect for due process and accountability for the offenses committed, and provide for the full protection of the victims and their families. Human Rights Watch requests clarification of the following matters: · Have Mukhtaran Bibi and her family been provided with police protection from reprisals for reporting the assault?
·

On what legal basis have the local police detained Salma Bibi and her mother? · Has a police investigation into the assault against Abdul Shaqoor begun? Is an investigation being conducted into reports that police officers demanded bribes from the family of Abdul Shaqoor to secure his release from police custody? On what legal basis was Shaqoor, a victim of sexual violence, detained? Are Shaqoor and his family now receiving police protection from further reprisals by the Mastoi tribe?

We also remain concerned about the broader role of tribal councils in Pakistan and the authority they effectively enjoy to mete out punishments properly reserved to the state. The authority wielded by these councils has come under strong criticism from national and international human rights organizations. In its 2001 annual report, the Human Rights Commission of Pakistan stated that tribal councils in the North West Frontier Province enforced legal punishments with official sanction, including imposing death sentences. Abusive exercise of authority by tribal councils is not confined to remote rural areas, though.

In 1998, an Afridi tribal council in Karachi decreed that a young couple, Riffat Afridi and Kunwar Ahsan, should be killed because they married against the wishes of Riffat Afridi's family. Kunwar Ahsan was permanently disabled after being shot by his wife's relatives. The tribal council members vowed to find and kill the couple. Human Rights Watch believes that it is imperative that government authorities ensure that tribal councils act in accordance with the law and in a manner that respects women's rights, and do not usurp the proper judicial authority of the state.

We request that you identify mechanisms by which local administrations in Pakistan can monitor the conduct of tribal councils, and intervene in instances where they have exercised jurisdiction belonging to the state. We appreciate your attention to these urgent matters and look forward to your response.

Sincerely,

LaShawn R. Jefferson
Executive Director
Women's Rights Division

Cc: Chief Justice Sheikh Riaz Ahmed, Ministry of Law, Justice and Human Rights Division
Governor Khalid Maqbool, Provincial Governor of Punjab Province
Minister Khalid Ranjha, Federal Minister of Law, Justice, Human Rights and Parliamentary Affairs

 

[oggbashan]

'For evil to prosper, all that is necessary is that good men do nothing'.

How long did it take the United States to give equal rights to former slaves and their descendants; to Indians; to women?

Pakistan is only just starting on the process and cannot change everything in a few years. The government know that these events attract world criticism. How much they can actually do about them when the local systems of justice are owned and influenced by people who believe that what they are doing is right is a debatable point.

How long into the 20th century was it before a black youth could walk down unmolested and unabused through the streets of a Southern town arm in arm with a white woman? Is it possible in every community even now?

Pakistan knows it has a problem but if it uses the rule of law it is faced with intimidated, disappeared or dead witnesses; with perjury, bribed officials, complacent lawyers and the indifference of many towards the problems of poor families. Guns, money and power talk. Sticks, poverty and weakness do not, and cannot if they want to stay alive and have even the pretence of freedom.

People never want to face unpleasant facts about their own society and will easily ignore things that do not affect them.

'They came for the gypsies; I didn't protest.
They came for the Jews; I didn't protest.
When they come for me; who will be left to protest?'

It is not easy to protest in a society such as Pakistan's. It can be fatal for you, your family and your friends. Would you risk that much for the beggar at your door? You should - but would you?

Og

 

[Pure]

I'm not sure at all if "Pakistan knows it has a problem." (Ogg)or even what that statement means. It would be interesting to know if the national government was getting letters etc from Pakistani's in at all the same volume as generated by the international rights campaign.

Yes, I'm sure it's hard not to conform, or to agitate for change in Pakistan. A key issue of this thread was a kind of 'local totalitarianism' in rural areas, and corrupt and unjust tribal councils running the show, there. * Perhaps more worrisome is that the councils probably enjoy majority support, or at least acquiescence.

Yes, it will/would take time to change, but OTOH, there's no guarantee that Islamic countries will move toward western models. The tide, except in a few places like Turkey, seems to be running in the other direction. Understandably. In fact, todays NYTimes says that the Turkish leader is having a bit of a problem: iirc, his party is sponsoring a bill, a law against adultery to be submitted to the national parliament (where it would pass). He's hesitant, as this would not help Turkey's quest for EU membership.

-----
I agree this isn't different, in essence, from some small southern towns of the US. I don't claim there's some special evil in rural *Pakistan*.

 

[oggbashan]

Originally posted by Pure

[quote shortened]

Yes, it will/would take time to change, but OTOH, there's no guarantee that Islamic countries will move toward western models. The tide, except in a few places like Turkey, seems to be running in the other direction. Understandably. In fact, todays NYTimes says that the Turkish leader is having a bit of a problem: iirc, his party is sponsoring a bill, a law against adultery to be submitted to the national parliament (where it would pass). He's hesitant, as this would not help Turkey's quest for EU membership.

-----
I agree this isn't different, in essence, from some small southern towns of the US. I don't claim there's some special evil in rural *Pakistan*.

The government of Pakistan knows it has a problem because the (British) Commonwealth has raised the issue with them several times. (I put 'British' in brackets because the Commonwealth is no longer 'British' but a free association of nations at least one of which was never British.)

There is considerable tension in Islamic states between the religious authorities and the secular ones. Does that sound a chord in the US? Turkey is the most secular state because of the reforms of Mustapha Kemel in the 1920s. Iran is the most religious state. The rest are between those two extremes.

Short of having a Henry VIII in each state or another Mustapha Kemal the tensions will continue. However not all or even most Muslim clerics are as reactionary as the media portray them. These practices are condemned by secular AND religious leaders in the larger cities but change will take a long time.

'Today's NY Times' is behind the times. The proposed law against adultery had already been dropped. It was a political ploy against politicians of one of the parties who are known to have two wives which is possible under Islamic law. (It is rather like proposing a law that Senators should not marry their cousins because it would only affect Senators from a particular US state). It was also an attempt to blackmail their Prime Minister on the rules for joining the EU. Turkey has to do a lot before it will be eligible particularly on human rights but it has a better record than Pakistan (or Iraq or Iran or China).

Again a balance has to be struck. Are the members of the EU forcing Turkey to change because it has a large Muslim population or because it has a poor record on human rights? Is one the cause of the other? If and probably when Turkey joins the EU will have to adapt to accommodate a country that does not have the same traditions as the rest. The EU has already changed with the new nations added as part of the enlargement. I think the EU needs to adjust to its new size before Turkey can join but there is considerable pressure from within Turkey to join the EU now. Many of Turkey's citizens see the EU like 19th century immigrants saw the US - a land of golden opportunities - and many of them already work in the EU, particularly in Germany.

Democracy and Islam are not contradictory. Many Muslims in the UK are active in local politics even if they despair of the media coverage that attributes all ills to Muslim fanatics.

It seems like deja vu - many of the things now being said about Muslims were said about Roman Catholics in the 19th century and before. Now we don't burn people at the stake but it wasn't that long ago when Catholics were burned in Queen Elizabeth the First's reign and Protestants had been burned in Queen Mary's reign.

Og