Rape Sentence;

[Pure]

Not a new story, but worth bumping. It seems the US's staunch ally is quite creative in sentencing. Indeed note that it's *her* sentence for her brother's alleged crime.


Sentenced to Be Raped
By NICHOLAS D. KRISTOF

Published: September 29, 2004

[start verbatim]
EERWALA, Pakistan — I'm still trying to help out President Bush by tracking down Osama bin Laden. After poking through remote parts of Pakistan, asking for a tall Arab with a beard, I can't say I've earned that $25 million reward.

But I did come across someone even more extraordinary than Osama.

Usually we journalists write about rogues, but Mukhtaran Bibi could not be more altruistic or brave, as the men who gang-raped her discovered. I firmly believe that the central moral challenge of this century, equivalent to the struggles against slavery in the 19th century or against totalitarianism in the 20th, will be to address sex inequality in the third world - and it's the stories of women like Ms. Mukhtaran that convince me this is so.

The plight of women in developing countries isn't addressed much in the West, and it certainly isn't a hot topic in the presidential campaign. But it's a life-and-death matter in villages like Meerwala, a 12-hour drive southeast from Islamabad.

In June 2002, the police say, members of a high-status tribe sexually abused one of Ms. Mukhtaran's brothers and then covered up their crime by falsely accusing him of having an affair with a high-status woman. The village's tribal council determined that the suitable punishment for the supposed affair was for high-status men to rape one of the boy's sisters, so the council sentenced Ms. Mukhtaran to be gang-raped.

As members of the high-status tribe danced in joy, four men stripped her naked and took turns raping her. Then they forced her to walk home naked in front of 300 villagers.

In Pakistan's conservative Muslim society, Ms. Mukhtaran's duty was now clear: she was supposed to commit suicide. "Just like other women, I initially thought of killing myself," said Ms. Mukhtaran, now 30. Her older brother, Hezoor Bux, explained: "A girl who has been raped has no honorable place in the village. Nobody respects the girl, or her parents. There's a stigma, and the only way out is suicide."

A girl in the next village was gang-raped a week after Ms. Mukhtaran, and she took the traditional route: she swallowed a bottle of pesticide and dropped dead.

But instead of killing herself, Ms. Mukhtaran testified against her attackers and propounded the shocking idea that the shame lies in raping, rather than in being raped. The rapists are now on death row, and President Pervez Musharraf presented Ms. Mukhtaran with the equivalent of $8,300 and ordered round-the-clock police protection for her.

Ms. Mukhtaran, who had never gone to school herself, used the money to build one school in the village for girls and another for boys - because, she said, education is the best way to achieve social change. The girls' school is named for her, and she is now studying in its fourth-grade class.

"Why should I have spent the money on myself?" she asked, adding, "This way the money is helping all the girls, all the children."

I wish the story ended there. But the Pakistani government has neglected its pledge to pay the schools' operating expenses. "The government made lots of promises, but it hasn't done much," Ms. Mukhtaran said bluntly.

She has had to buy food for the police who protect her, as well as pay some school expenses. So, she said, "I've run out of money." Unless the schools can raise new funds, they may have to close.

Meanwhile, villagers say that relatives of the rapists are waiting for the police to leave and then will put Ms. Mukhtaran in her place by slaughtering her and her entire family. I walked to the area where the high-status tribesmen live. They denied planning to kill Ms. Mukhtaran, but were unapologetic about her rape.

"Mukhtaran is totally disgraced," Taj Bibi, a matriarch in a high-status family, said with satisfaction. "She has no respect in society."

So although I did not find Osama, I did encounter a much more ubiquitous form of evil and terror: a culture, stretching across about half the globe, that chews up women and spits them out.

We in the West could help chip away at that oppression, with health and literacy programs and by simply speaking out against it, just as we once stood up against slavery and totalitarianism. But instead of standing beside fighters like Ms. Mukhtaran, we're still sitting on the fence. [end]

 

[Joe Wordsworth]

This may not be a popular view amongst most people, but in the circles I frequent (the scholarly, the academic), its the only response that meets a majority of the criteria we demand before forming opinion...

Though humanitarian aid is a noble thing--feeding the children and providing education are more symptom-related initiatives than cause-related. Even the establishing of better court systems or the broad intervention of a democracy--though noble, don't deal with the core of the problem (evident, I think, in the villagers responses).

The cultural tradition is a strong influence on every one of those projects.

I believe it possible, even if faithful, that the government's movement on the issue was reflective of their ability to respond to the issue--death sentances and compensation. Their failure to maintain the essential benifits of the order (keeping the school fudned) is a failure of their system to articulate its continuing support moreso than their withdrawl of support. It is an unfortunate and terrible thing that cultural tradition can resonate in a system in such a way as to allow such a thing to happen.

"All cultures are beautiful" or "every culture should be preserved" are cliche's that fail when confronted with atrocities like this one, female genital mutilations in Africa, and the Taliban's practices of burning women in the streets (late nineties) for simply advocating independance.

I have never been able to convince myself that all cultures deserve to continue. The problem in Pakistan is too common, the government's lack of the proper language for dealing with these sorts of human crimes isn't necessarily one of strictly morality... but one of history and tradition. The only way to combat that sort of ignorance and inability is to fundamentally alter their entire structure of belief.

Not all beliefs, at least in my opinion, are sacred. I'm sure the young woman in the article can understand that.

 

[snooper]

... President Pervez Musharraf presented Ms. Mukhtaran with the equivalent of $8,300 and ordered round-the-clock police protection for her.

Ms. Mukhtaran, who had never gone to school herself, used the money to build one school in the village for girls and another for boys ...

I know it is beside the point, but this part is interesting. In my village we have just had a new school for the under-12s built. It cost the best part of $8million and I wonder how it happens that the costs are a thousand times higher in the UK than in Pakistan.

Could it be that the official exchange rates are meaningless?

 

[Pure]

I imagine a one room school with a concrete floor and metal roof could be constructed for 8000 US. We're not talking of US H.S. palaces with swimming pools, stadiums and laptops for every student.

Joe: While I partially agree with the 'drift' of your message, let me ask you: Does *our* (US) culture deserve to survive? Why?

 

[SummerMorning]

"All cultures are beautiful" or "every culture should be preserved" are cliche's that fail when confronted with atrocities like this one, female genital mutilations in Africa, and the Taliban's practices of burning women in the streets (late nineties) for simply advocating independance.

I have never been able to convince myself that all cultures deserve to continue. The problem in Pakistan is too common, the government's lack of the proper language for dealing with these sorts of human crimes isn't necessarily one of strictly morality... but one of history and tradition. The only way to combat that sort of ignorance and inability is to fundamentally alter their entire structure of belief.

Not all beliefs, at least in my opinion, are sacred. I'm sure the young woman in the article can understand that.

"Objectively," and thus professionally, I can state that all cultures are equal, insofar as their mores and social codes are legitimate within that society.

Subjectively, and thus personally, I can and do state that I prefer certain cultures. I prefer cultures similar to my own, where a respect for the individual and individual rights count for something, a culture where equal opportunities are an important goal, a culture where achievement and merit are the basis of betterment.

Bringing the two together, personally I find the practices you mentioned abhorrent and vile. However, the only way that they will be discontinued will be if the perpetrators and victims of these practices (i.e. the cultures that commit and legitimate them) will change. They will change only if the individual members of these cultures come to see them as wrong.

Of course, for that to happen and have an effect, it is very useful (read: well nigh essential) for the governments in question to have an interest in overcoming this discrimination.

"All cultures should be preserved," is in my opinion, utter bullshit. All cultures should have a chance to survive, live and thrive - however, for that to happen they must be willing to adapt, change and grow. Few organisms (and here I liken cultures to organisms) are particularly successful if they do not adapt at least their outward mode of behavior to their environment.

Thus, unfortunately for conservatives the world over, there are other cultures to take into account when preaching the beauty of their own peculiar culture.

Besides, most of what we usually call culture is just BS for helping old, rich guys stay in power and get chicks.

 

[Guest]

Like I wrote on my thread, Pakistan is bullshit (I've Martin Amis' intelligence behind this).

Think why the most of fundamentalist terrorists are in there.

Think why the high ranked goverment officials get bombed but never get a scratch on them, though drivers (who is no bodies) get blown up to bits.

 

[Pure]

Yep.

Pakistan is a major source and conduit of terrorist funding, a main indoctrinator (in the madrassas) and training ground--and probably hiding place--for terrorists:

Status: US most valued ally in the region, receiving most(? I guessing) US funds ouside of Saudi Arabia.

It's a stinking turd on Bush's dinner plate, and he's chowing down (with smirk).

 

[Colleen Thomas]

Yep.

Pakistan is a major source and conduit of terrorist funding, a main indoctrinator (in the madrassas) and training ground--and probably hiding place--for terrorists:

Status: US most valued ally in the region, receiving most(? I guessing) US funds ouside of Saudi Arabia.

It's a stinking turd on Bush's dinner plate, and he's chowing down (with smirk).

J,

Is this a cultural thing? I mean native to Pakistan? Or is it a religious thing? The way the majority of muslims treat people?

-Colly

 

[oggbashan]

J,

Is this a cultural thing? I mean native to Pakistan? Or is it a religious thing? The way the majority of muslims treat people?

-Colly

It is a custom in rural areas of Pakistan, parts of India, Bangladesh, and some of the other 'stans in the area.

It is supposed to be sanctioned by religious laws but most Muslims would see it as we do - a perversion of justice. It is not a Muslim practice even under Sharia and very few areas use that legal system unmodified.

It is racial, sexual and cultural abuse practised by the powerful on the weak. It is not supported by the government of Pakistan but their rule does not extend far in the rural areas which are back in the 17th or 18th century by our standards.

Systematic rape of women (and men) is used as a tool to demonstrate the power of the rulers. It is prevalent in Darfur now. If men cannot prevent their women being raped they know that they are powerless and that resistance to the oppressors is futile - that is the theory behind the practice.

The Japanese used rape as a weapon to control peoples in WWII. German women were raped by Russian troops in the later stages of the defeat of Germany and whisper it quietly - British and US troops did it too - but not as a matter of official policy.

Female genital mutilation is generally a sub-Saharan African practice - supported by 'witch-doctors' rather than Muslims.

Og

 

[Colleen Thomas]

It is a custom in rural areas of Pakistan, parts of India, Bangladesh, and some of the other 'stans in the area.

It is supposed to be sanctioned by religious laws but most Muslims would see it as we do - a perversion of justice. It is not a Muslim practice even under Sharia and very few areas use that legal system unmodified.

It is racial, sexual and cultural abuse practised by the powerful on the weak. It is not supported by the government of Pakistan but their rule does not extend far in the rural areas which are back in the 17th or 18th century by our standards.

Systematic rape of women (and men) is used as a tool to demonstrate the power of the rulers. It is prevalent in Darfur now. If men cannot prevent their women being raped they know that they are powerless and that resistance to the oppressors is futile - that is the theory behind the practice.

The Japanese used rape as a weapon to control peoples in WWII. German women were raped by Russian troops in the later stages of the defeat of Germany and whisper it quietly - British and US troops did it too - but not as a matter of official policy.

Female genital mutilation is generally a sub-Saharan African practice - supported by 'witch-doctors' rather than Muslims.

Og

Thanks Oggs. I didn't think mainstream Islam was supportive of this type of behavior.

-Colly

 

[Guest]

It is racial, sexual and cultural abuse practised by the powerful on the weak. It is not supported by the government of Pakistan but their rule does not extend far in the rural areas which are back in the 17th or 18th century by our standards.
Og

And they've got a military dictatorship. Confusing or what.

 

[oggbashan]

And they've got a military dictatorship. Confusing or what.

Yes. It is confusing. Understanding your own country's political system is difficult enough if you want to know how it actually works compared with how it is supposed to work according to the textbooks. Understanding another country's system and how it fits their cultural norms is almost impossible.

By Pakistan's standards the current military dictatorship is moderate and less corrupt than some previous governments. It is at least trying to produce a country in which genuine democracy might work - or that's what they say they are doing. Whether they are doing that or not I would need far more information before I could say that they are, or are not.

They should have credit for trying to improve the lot of their people.

Og

 

[Guest]

Understanding another country's system and how it fits their cultural norms is almost impossible.
I do think understanding at intellectual level is possible (i.e. on paper) It's just that a civilisation is so complex that at practical level someone's always get treated worse off than the other. Ergo, don't work in an Utopian way. Instead, we get this chaotic dystopia.

By Pakistan's standards the current military dictatorship is moderate and less corrupt than some previous governments.
That maybe so.
It is at least trying to produce a country in which genuine democracy might work - or that's what they say they are doing.
I cannot help but be sceptical about it. Sadly.
Whether they are doing that or not I would need far more information before I could say that they are, or are not.
This, I agree. Pre-emptive strike may not be the wisest choice.

They should have credit for trying to improve the lot of their people.
This, I agree also.

Og

WOW. Written this way, I almost sound credible.

 

[sweetnpetite]

"All cultures are beautiful" or "every culture should be preserved" are cliche's that fail when confronted with atrocities like this one, female genital mutilations in Africa, and the Taliban's practices of burning women in the streets (late nineties) for simply advocating independance.

There may be something in those cultures worth preserving, though a disregard for human lives and suffering is not that thing.

Attrocities though culturally ingrained do not negate everything about the culture. The culture can be preserved without preserving every practice of the culture. Our own culture has many flaws and atrocities, but we must stive to improve, not simply obliterate, or replace with the values of some other culture deemed to be better.

It is not always possible for an outsider to know how best to improve the flaws of another culture, on the other hand, sometimes an outsider is just what it takes. Life, all of it, is trial and error. We must preserve what is worth preseving, and remember what is not so that we do not repeat it. We must all learn from our mistakes, individual and nation alike. We must also be able to look for the specks of gold hidden within the baser materials, as well as to see the flaws in the diamonds, rather than judging all of something based only on it's parts.

the news-story made me cry.

 

[sweetnpetite]

As another example, there is much in German culture worth preserving, despite the events of WWII. The Nazi's where not all of German culture, the Taliban is not all of Afganistan culture, Fundamentalist Christianity is not all of US culture ect.

 

[Joe Wordsworth]

Originally posted by SummerMorning
"Objectively," and thus professionally, I can state that all cultures are equal, insofar as their mores and social codes are legitimate within that society.

Speaking professionally (where my profession is logician), and thus objectively (as logic is merely objective), I can state that not all cultures are equal with regard to their mores and social codes when brought to a global stage. Equal because their social codes are legitimate within isn't a very strong statement. I can say that my family takes to beating its women, raping its children, and shooting the dog... that's its culture, but its legit within our little society. It doesn't really justify it by virtue of that, though.

Subjectively, and thus personally, I can and do state that I prefer certain cultures. I prefer cultures similar to my own, where a respect for the individual and individual rights count for something, a culture where equal opportunities are an important goal, a culture where achievement and merit are the basis of betterment.

Subjectively, and personally, I can state that I prefer certain cultures... those participating in the greatest traditions of objective consideration and carefully reasoned structure.

Thus, unfortunately for conservatives the world over, there are other cultures to take into account when preaching the beauty of their own peculiar culture.

I would say it unfortunate for liberals, too, the world over. They, too, fail to take into account that there is another culture going on when they preach theirs.

 

[SummerMorning]

Funny, Joe, I think we agree completely.

 

[Joe Wordsworth]

Originally posted by SummerMorning
Funny, Joe, I think we agree completely.

Seems to be that way.

I must be losing my edge or something.

 

[SeaCat]

And people say my punishment for rape is barbaric?

As much as I enjoy, believe in, and revel in the differences in cultures this makes me psychologicly ill. (Yes I have heard worse.) Unfortunately I can't stop from comparing my culture with others, and while I find my society ill, I don't find it as ill as this one.

Now before some of you decide to climb up on your PC Soapbox, let me ask you a question. How does the Pakistany Culture in which is now taking place differ from another, (except in extremes,) where a woman who has been raped can be taken to tak for her past sexual activities? In what foreward looking, socialy advanced culture can it be claimed that a woman was asking for the rape to occur because of what she was or was not wearing? Or what she was driving? Or whom her friends were? Or even where she lived?

The stigma this woman now has to deal with is different only in extreme from that felt and shown in another country. One which is so called socially advanced. A country where if she dares to bring charges against her rapist the woman is on trial. A country where the womans past is open for investigation while her attackers is not. An advanced country where a womans life history will be "leaked" to the press while her attackers is protected by law. A country where a woman who has been raped andpressed charges is branded as spoiled goods or worse. How is their culture worse than ours?

Yes it is disgusting. Too bad it wont change until people wake up. Until then I prefer backwoods justice with a rusty cheese grater.

Cat

P.S. Yes I know some rape victims who have been victimised by the system. One of them is my wife.

 

[Joe Wordsworth]

This will be on the few times I speak entirely out of reason:

My opinion is that in efforts to make this world a better place, the occasional pruning in the garden is fine with me.

B2 bombers and MOAB.

Level the whole place.

 

[SeaCat]

This will be on the few times I speak entirely out of reason:

My opinion is that in efforts to make this world a better place, the occasional pruning in the garden is fine with me.

B2 bombers and MOAB.

Level the whole place.

Nah, that's not the answer, although it is tempting at times. The best way to cure this is to make it personal. (I can't remember the French quote but it translates as a lesson by example.) If you make people worry about the resultsof their actions they will start to think about what they are doing, and isn't this the first step in education? Making them think? (Yes it is barbaric, but then again so is what we want to stop.)

You can't punish an entire society, culture, or race for what a few are doing. If we did this then everyone would be dead. For example, my wife could blame all African Americans, and hate them with cause, for her rape several years ago. Instead she doesn't. She pushed to have those responsible punished. (Then again she is much more logical and a better person than many of the others I know.) She didn't blame te entire race, just those responsible. (We wont get into what defenses they used, but let it be said here the N.A.A.C.P. lost all credibilty with me and my wife, as well as several other government supported groups.)

Cat

 

[Pure]

Despite my overheated rhetoric, I'm not saying level Pakistan, or every Pakistani is dangerous and backward, etc. Pakistani culture--if there is any unified thing-- as a subset of Muslim culture, must have its plusses, or at least plus potentials.
As far as blame, it's the religious leaders, and political leaders and those who've bought them, the rich and the rich Americans.
In all maybe 1% of the population that I'd *fantasize* about effacing. (In practice, have them dig latrines for 30 years.)

You have a combination of cultural, class, and national factors, not to say regional differences, etc. And the result is murderous.

BUT the same can be said regarding that those who burned down, wiped out that whole Black town of Rosewood, in Florida, 1922. In Ontario, in 1880, the town of Lucan got excited and they murdered a whole family, men, women, and children (Donnellys).

In Ontario, a couple years ago, a judge confined a welfare mom to her home in mid summer; she had no air conditioning or money (she had cheated the system of a couple thousand). She got depressed and committed suicide, as the article says (in the first posting) is expected in Pakistan.

 

[SummerMorning]

I'm at a loss for words.

 

[Edward Teach]

I'm at a loss for words.

I'm not, Summer, but they would be wasted so I'll just keep silent and shake my head.

Ed

 

[oggbashan]

The news report that started this thread shows a practice that is not only abhorrent to most Muslims but also to most Pakistanis. That is why the perpetrators are in jail.

However they usually get away with it because the have the local power (and the guns) to enforce silence on those whose women are abused.

Another evil practice in the Indian sub-continent is wife-burning. If a wife's parents do not produce enough money and goods for her dowry, or are dilatory in payment, the wife is dowsed in petrol and set alight. If she survives she is returned to her parents as 'no longer acceptable for her duties' and is expected to commit suicide. Some wives are burned more than once in 'domestic accidents' until the dowry is paid.

The practice of requiring a dowry is supposed to be illegal but is practised through all areas and castes of Indian society. The amounts required are crippling for the woman's family. Her father may be paying off the loan to provide her dowry for the rest of his life.

Wife-burning is uncommon and rarely reported for fear of further attacks on her and her family.

'Legal rape' and 'Wife-burning' are condemned by the authorities but witnesses are very intimidated and a proven case is almost impossible.

Both are symptoms of a very different view of women's roles in their respective societies, the sort of view that was common in the West until the 19th century, still widespread in much of the 20th century and still held by some men even here on Literotica.

Og