Rape is not erotic, but what about fantasy rape?

[sun_sea_sky]

I'm working on a story with a brief rape scene. Just want to get a bit of feedback here.

First, to clarify my own position, I know rape in real life is a horrible crime, a crime of violence (usually against women but not always), a crime committed usually by the rapist to show contempt of their victim, but in some cases (eg. drunk/drugged victim) where the victim would normally not consent to having sex with the rapist.

OK, that's real life rape. And in the story or stories where I even mention the word rape I usually get a comment underneath along the lines of:

Rape is not erotic.

Now, moving onto fantasy rape. It's hardly a new concept:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rape_fantasy

This site here (Literotica) has an entire section devoted to "NonConsent/Reluctance". And if rape isn't non-consent I don't know what it is.

An earlier thread appeared to suggest that "rape" is OK (in a story) provided the victim "enjoys it" or "subsequently consents" or something like that. That seems to me to be a pretty fine line. In real life you wouldn't rape someone in the hope that they might enjoy it.

Moving onto my story and my question. In this particular story the victim is actually a man, and he gets pretty pissed off. So there is no consent. However it is told in the context of a power struggle between him and the rapist (another man), as a plot device to force a crisis. It isn't "rape for the sake of rape".

The question is: is this an "acceptable" form of rape (for this site) in a story? I probably will get differing opinions, but I'm interested to hear.

Again, I know rape is illegal, so is incest, but there seem to be thousands of stories about incest.

Perhaps the story should have a disclaimer at the start: Warning: contains a male rape scene.

Of course, that would spoil the surprise a bit.

 

[Stella_Omega]

Call it "non con" the weasel words are very useful that way.

 

[lovecraft68]

Honestly what they say is full of shit. write it as nasty as you feel like.

This bs they don't support rape stories is just that. Stella's expression "weasel words" could not be more accurate.

They won't allow rape in a title because they don;t want lit stories being the first ones to pop up in a google search. Fans of rape stories key word search rape not non consent.

This way when the FBI busts yet another serial rapist with a ton of rape stories on their pc they figure lit won;t be on there.

Their claim that there has to be some enjoyment or it can't be harmful or real rape is so full of crap it's not funny.

I cruise the feedback forum all the time and came across a story where a couple of comments were calling out rape.

I went to the story in question.

a woman was being gang raped in an office. she was tied bent over a copy machine and while they were raping her they were shoving pens and pencils in her ass and pussy.

She was begging the entire time. Several comments called it out as rape. I reported it and had some friends here do it as well.

Guess what? Story is still there.

They don't fucking care about this. all they care about is not having a 17 year old get a boner that's it.

so if you choose to write that type of story go for it. That "rule" exists only to cover their ass when the feds finally start equating that type of story with the real deal and they want their name out of it. Now I'm not saying people who read fantasy rape are going to be rapists.

But anyone that gets off to the story I mentioned has some issues and sadly that section is rife with those stories. Personally I'd like to meet the author and slam a pencil into his eye, but hey that's just me, I only pick on people who can fight back, not helpless tied up females.

Hypocrisy at its finest

 

[nakdsub]

I believe...

The prerequisite for Non-consensual, (rape) is that, at some point, the victim has to start to enjoy it. (I guess that's what makes it "fantasy rape.")

One of the first stories I submitted here involved a realistic male rape by two men and one woman. The story was rejected for violence. Just keep that in mind as you're writing.

 

[lovecraft68]

The prerequisite for Non-consensual, (rape) is that, at some point, the victim has to start to enjoy it. (I guess that's what makes it "fantasy rape.")

One of the first stories I submitted here involved a realistic male rape by two men and one woman. The story was rejected for violence. Just keep that in mind as you're writing.

That's interesting, question, was it a short story or was the rape early on?

I'm asking because it was recently revealed that only one person looks through these stories which means most are not looked at.

I understand in some cases-I read a story that looked for a page and a half like hardcore rape and turned out to be a role play between a husband and wife- it can be hard to tell, as in you would have to really look through the story to catch fantasy vs real rape.

But with one person looking its luck of the draw, I just get pissed because I think the report button is a joke.

Although I got one rejected for violence, but after it was up for 6 months so it was obviously personal that it was reported.

I was also admittedly a real tool and re submitted the story as is and watched it go right back up there, just to prove my point.

I've since taken that f part series down, but enjoyed knowing for a fact how full of crap they are

 

[estragon]

LC68, this is not a "family porn" site; there is some heavy shit going down, but also some good hot loving as well. Ya pays yer money and yer takes yer cherce.

 

[PennLady]

It seems to me -- judging by the stories I've read, which I'm sure is a small sample -- that much of what is in non-con/reluctance is a type of role-play. Sometimes the "victim" is in on it, sometimes not. Another large subset seems to be where the victim, usually a woman, finds she enjoys it. Sometimes she's horrified, sometimes not, but much of the time she gives in and enjoys it.

Rape is a crime of violence and power, that's been pretty well-documented. It's also been documented that a lot of (most?) sexual assaults and rape are perpetrated by someone the victim knows.

If you want to have a story that involves a rape, go ahead. I'm not sure what Lit's official rules are. I remember reading a Nonhuman story by Daniellekitten that contained an explicit rape in the first chapter; a woman was attacked by a serial rapist. The rape served as a jumping-off point for the rest of the story. But that's an example of a story that was posted and with no questions that I know of.

As for a m/m rape and a warning, I don't know. Some readers would appreciate the warning. However, if it's in the non-con section, then they should be prepared for it. On the other hand, some will likely think that m/m sex under any circumstances should go under gay male.

 

[sun_sea_sky]

However, if it's in the non-con section, then they should be prepared for it. On the other hand, some will likely think that m/m sex under any circumstances should go under gay male.

Thanks for the comments. That leads to another problem, which section to put it in.

The principle focus of the story is incest (mother/son), so it was going to go into the incest/taboo section. However the rape scene involves the father/son plus bondage so that is incest/rape/gay/humiliation/bondage all in a couple of sentences. Maybe it's all too much.

Perhaps the plot crisis could turn on something else (eg. abduction by aliens ... just joking) and leave the problematic scene out.

 

[PennLady]

Thanks for the comments. That leads to another problem, which section to put it in.

The principle focus of the story is incest (mother/son), so it was going to go into the incest/taboo section. However the rape scene involves the father/son plus bondage so that is incest/rape/gay/humiliation/bondage all in a couple of sentences. Maybe it's all too much.

Perhaps the plot crisis could turn on something else (eg. abduction by aliens ... just joking) and leave the problematic scene out.

It may all be too much, on the other hand, it's your story. When you get there, perhaps you could find a beta reader to look it over and give you an opinion. I believe some have posted that incest trumps just about everything, although it may not trump gay male. Not sure. I don't write in these categories so I can't say for myself.

Will these things happen in different chapters? Because another option is to put each chapter in the category that best fits.

 

[Wildcard Ky]

Lit will allow it to be posted if at some point, there is some form of consent. However, they insisted on it being called a "ravishment fantasy"

The rape fantasy is pretty common. I wrote a story on it once. In doing the research, the basis of the fantasy is that the woman wants to feel so desired that the man will do anything to have her, legal or not. Since the story was titled as a fantasy, LIT didn't any issues with posting it.

 

[sun_sea_sky]

Will these things happen in different chapters? Because another option is to put each chapter in the category that best fits.

The incest/rape/gay/humiliation/bondage happens in Summer (lol) so it was intended for the Summer Lovin competition, and thus has to be one chapter. Did I mention the prostitution? This is going to be a steamy summer story.

 

[damppanties]

Thanks for the comments. That leads to another problem, which section to put it in.

The principle focus of the story is incest (mother/son), so it was going to go into the incest/taboo section. However the rape scene involves the father/son plus bondage so that is incest/rape/gay/humiliation/bondage all in a couple of sentences. Maybe it's all too much.

Perhaps the plot crisis could turn on something else (eg. abduction by aliens ... just joking) and leave the problematic scene out.

It may all be too much, on the other hand, it's your story. When you get there, perhaps you could find a beta reader to look it over and give you an opinion. I believe some have posted that incest trumps just about everything, although it may not trump gay male. Not sure. I don't write in these categories so I can't say for myself.

Incidentally, I just had a story post today (plug!) that has this same mix. Nonconsent and incest. Not bondage though. And not gay male either. So it could have fallen in either incest or noncon. I chose incest, as it's primarily an incest story, but it got slammed by one PC (out of 11 so far). The other PCs are complimentary and so is email feedback but the rating is sadly not up to what the comments and feedback are telling me. I'm wondering if it's because of the nonconsensual sex now and perhaps thinking it was a bit too much for the incest folks to handle.

So, I'm not quite sure what to tell you here about where to put your story. I don't know what I could have done differently with mine other than just not posting the story. Just sharing here in case it helps you in some way.

 

[SevenSquared]

To be honest, if you read a story in the NonCon section I think you have no business posting self-righteous comments like 'rape is not erotic' any more than you should go to the BDSM category and start spamming 'pain is not erotic' or going to the Incest section and typing 'ew gross!' on every story.

Also, like others, I think the lines that are drawn between what is and isn't allowed in the NonCon section are completely arbitrary. As far as I am aware there are no laws in the US, or most other western countries regarding writing about rape. So either allow rape stories (on the basis that there is no reason not to allow them) or ban all stories involving illegal sexual activity including any kind of rape as well as a large majority of the incest category as well. The policy right now containing such wishy-washy concepts as 'rape is okay providing she enjoys it at some point' or 'rape is okay providing it is not violent' is crap.

 

[sun_sea_sky]

When you get there, perhaps you could find a beta reader to look it over and give you an opinion.

I followed your advice and got another pair of eyes to look at it.

Thanks for the suggestion PennLady and for the reviewer -- you know who you are -- this forum has been incredibly helpful.

 

[Kurokami]

Thanks for the comments. That leads to another problem, which section to put it in.

The principle focus of the story is incest (mother/son), so it was going to go into the incest/taboo section. However the rape scene involves the father/son plus bondage so that is incest/rape/gay/humiliation/bondage all in a couple of sentences. Maybe it's all too much.

Perhaps the plot crisis could turn on something else (eg. abduction by aliens ... just joking) and leave the problematic scene out.

Generally, the rules I follow when I'm unsure as to categories are based on intensity or potential to give offense: incest would take precedence over any other category, even if it's not the focus of the story, and nonconsent/rape/whatever you want to call it trumps it all. Basically, if you post a story with unexpected noncon stuff in the incest category, I'd be bracing myself for some comment bombs from offended parties. You'd be safer just tossing it into the nonconsent section, warning about the incest stuff... Unless the rape scene is particularly short, which might be the case, from what I'm reading. You might get away with just warning about the noncon scene there, but the idiots who'll anonymously bomb your story will continue to be idiots either way.

Whichever way it goes, good luck with it.

 

[damppanties]

...but the idiots who'll anonymously bomb your story will continue to be idiots either way.

This. *sigh*

 

[sun_sea_sky]

Whichever way it goes, good luck with it.

Thanks for the support.

My reviewer suggested keeping the rape scene but deleting something else, which I think has made it a better story. Shows how you can get focussed on the wrong thing.

 

[Verdad]

Also, like others, I think the lines that are drawn between what is and isn't allowed in the NonCon section are completely arbitrary. As far as I am aware there are no laws in the US, or most other western countries regarding writing about rape. So either allow rape stories (on the basis that there is no reason not to allow them) or ban all stories involving illegal sexual activity including any kind of rape as well as a large majority of the incest category as well. The policy right now containing such wishy-washy concepts as 'rape is okay providing she enjoys it at some point' or 'rape is okay providing it is not violent' is crap.

What's wrong with wishy-washy? Not all issues can be decided mechanically.

As a reader who’s fine with non-con stories, I can discern rather easily between stories meant to appeal to others like me and those geared toward, shall we say, more disturbing agendas and payoffs.

But I can’t give you a concise rule you could apply to the issue, nor even a ridiculously long and verbose one. The best I could say would be hopelessly circular: “Non con is fine if it’s likely to appeal to the garden variety non-con reader.” Yet that’s probably the policy the editors follow where there’s any policy in place at all.

If someone wants to argue the non garden-variety readers, down to sociopaths and rape advocates, need their place in the sun too, that’s probably a topic for another day. I’m just pointing out you can have a useful and meaningful selection process that can’t be automated.

 

[Tyro999]

Also, like others, I think the lines that are drawn between what is and isn't allowed in the NonCon section are completely arbitrary. As far as I am aware there are no laws in the US, or most other western countries regarding writing about rape. So either allow rape stories (on the basis that there is no reason not to allow them) or ban all stories involving illegal sexual activity including any kind of rape as well as a large majority of the incest category as well. The policy right now containing such wishy-washy concepts as 'rape is okay providing she enjoys it at some point' or 'rape is okay providing it is not violent' is crap.

Yes, Literotica is a privately operated website and Laurel and Manu are being completely arbitrary with their rules. C'est la vie. Live within their rules or seek another place with looser rules. Griping is fine, but as far as I can tell, neither of them have paid much attention to gripes about their categories, and how strict/loose they are in accepting/rejecting stories in given categories.

 

[PayDay]

Call it "non con" the weasel words are very useful that way.

Agreed. I'm going to write a rape story where the rapist gets shot in the face.

 

[Kurokami]

Agreed. I'm going to write a rape story where the rapist gets shot in the face.

Frankly, I'd really appreciate that. I'm not against noncon at all, I write in that vein myself, but I find it creepy that the majority of the stories I read don't feature any form of comeuppance for the rapist, which is just symptomatic of a serious lack of character development or plot throughout the majority of those kinds of stories. It seems like one of the more shallow categories, generally.

Sometimes, it'd be really nice and comforting to read a story where the rapist does get punished, and the victim does get some revenge. It's certainly how I'm planning to resolve a couple of my stories.

 

[SevenSquared]

What's wrong with wishy-washy? Not all issues can be decided mechanically.

As a reader who’s fine with non-con stories, I can discern rather easily between stories meant to appeal to others like me and those geared toward, shall we say, more disturbing agendas and payoffs.

But I can’t give you a concise rule you could apply to the issue, nor even a ridiculously long and verbose one. The best I could say would be hopelessly circular: “Non con is fine if it’s likely to appeal to the garden variety non-con reader.” Yet that’s probably the policy the editors follow where there’s any policy in place at all.

That's fine providing that the entire readership of the NonCon section is divided perfectly into 'people like you' and 'rape advocates', but that's incredibly simplistic and naive. In reality there are a bunch of people somewhere in between and probably people who find the stuff that you enjoy shocking as well.

As far as I'm concerned rape is rape, it's illegal (in most countries and in most circumstances) and morally wrong. If all non-consent was banned then that would be fine, but I think it's much more offensive to RL rape victims to start grading rape into 'bad rape' and 'okay rape' than it is to just allow anything on the basis of freedom of expression.

 

[CuteBrat]

Frankly, I'd really appreciate that. I'm not against noncon at all, I write in that vein myself, but I find it creepy that the majority of the stories I read don't feature any form of comeuppance for the rapist, which is just symptomatic of a serious lack of character development or plot throughout the majority of those kinds of stories. It seems like one of the more shallow categories, generally.

Sometimes, it'd be really nice and comforting to read a story where the rapist does get punished, and the victim does get some revenge. It's certainly how I'm planning to resolve a couple of my stories.

I'm female...and I HATE the "comeuppance" stories. Totally ruins it for me. Only thing worse is the "twist" where she ends up really liking it, or it really was her husband all along. To me, those all are signs of writers who don't have the balls to really dip into the dark side.

Face it...aspects of rape ARE erotic. Eros is neither morally right or wrong...it just is. I happen to find intense, dark non-con stories very arrousing. Does that mean I want to be raped? Not necessarily. It means I recognize a story is different from an actual action. And people who CAN'T understand that, probably should be kept on the short buses wearing bicycle helmets.

 

[CuteBrat]

To be honest, if you read a story in the NonCon section I think you have no business posting self-righteous comments like 'rape is not erotic' any more than you should go to the BDSM category and start spamming 'pain is not erotic' or going to the Incest section and typing 'ew gross!' on every story.

Also, like others, I think the lines that are drawn between what is and isn't allowed in the NonCon section are completely arbitrary. As far as I am aware there are no laws in the US, or most other western countries regarding writing about rape. So either allow rape stories (on the basis that there is no reason not to allow them) or ban all stories involving illegal sexual activity including any kind of rape as well as a large majority of the incest category as well. The policy right now containing such wishy-washy concepts as 'rape is okay providing she enjoys it at some point' or 'rape is okay providing it is not violent' is crap.

I totally agree with the final part here. The non-con stories on Lit, with a very few exceptions, are horribly timid and weak. I'm searching for better, non-pay sites. I must say, the times I've sampled RPPStories dot com. I've been impressed.

 

[sun_sea_sky]

I seem to have touched a nerve with my initial post.

The thing is, the rape stories are ... well, stories.

You may as well complain that the Sherlock Holmes stories condone murder, kidnapping, and assorted violence. To say nothing of most "cops" TV shows, which usually show murders, robberies etc.

If you watch a TV show about murder, you find it "exciting". That doesn't mean you condone murder or want to be murdered. I suggest it is the same with rape. And this in no way is to trivialize the people that have actually been raped, any more than "murder" TV shows trivialize murder or the victims of murder, or their families.

If someone writes a story about murder, no-one has actually been murdered. If someone writes a story about rape, no-one has actually been raped.