Rape and BDSM

[PyroDemon]

I am not quite sure where I am going with this thread, so if it gets strange and ignorant, you have been warned.

Recently I have accepted a request to work on a rape crisis and prevention council for my local county. It is not my first, but this time it has a element I have not had to deal with. Atleast not on a semi-professional level. No one on the council is aware of my preferences or lifestyle, or atleast not that I am aware of. I do believe that one of the clinical psychiatrist on the panel is suspicious if not interested. We were having a discussion and part of it brought up the BDSM lifestyle and how it supposedly promotes the idea of rape as acceptable in society. How it damages the self esteem of a Sub into accepting rape as just there fate and how it promotes in a Dom the right to do it and not consider it rape. I know, I had a difficult time in holding my tongue and letting them talk till they finished. One of the group of women are clients of this Doctor and they will be participating in the class and seminar I am helping to design. They are supposedly " survivors " of BDSM lifestyles. I met with the first group this afternoon and I had such a hard time not telling the doctor that half of the women in the group are submissives, even if they did not know it. I believe my biggest problem is going to be this doctor. She is very intellegent and does offer valid points. But she does not understand I can read her well enough to know that she has the submissive qualities too.
I have a number of areas I am working on and these are just a few. Any input is welcome and frankly, needed. I am trying to do my best to not tip my hand and tell them I know more about this lifestyle than they realize. I would like a bit of privacy in my life. Besides, I don't want people to know I flogged the first Lady until after I get into the Whitehouse.
How do I approach this situation without it being " the Wolf telling the Sheep how to avoid the Wolf'? Basically my part of this was to instruct the participants in basic self defense. Which is fine and dandy. Only one problem, the best self defense starts from within. Doesn't matter if you can defend your self if you mind won't let you do it. So , I have break this barrier of they deserve it, it is fate, or they are a sub and they are not supposed to say no. Most I have no problem with and i am sure I will figure out a workable way. But not being a sub myself, I have never been taken, so maybe it is more help in this area I need. Thanks.

 

[Netzach]

I am not quite sure where I am going with this thread, so if it gets strange and ignorant, you have been warned.

Recently I have accepted a request to work on a rape crisis and prevention council for my local county. It is not my first, but this time it has a element I have not had to deal with. Atleast not on a semi-professional level. No one on the council is aware of my preferences or lifestyle, or atleast not that I am aware of. I do believe that one of the clinical psychiatrist on the panel is suspicious if not interested. We were having a discussion and part of it brought up the BDSM lifestyle and how it supposedly promotes the idea of rape as acceptable in society. How it damages the self esteem of a Sub into accepting rape as just there fate and how it promotes in a Dom the right to do it and not consider it rape. I know, I had a difficult time in holding my tongue and letting them talk till they finished. One of the group of women are clients of this Doctor and they will be participating in the class and seminar I am helping to design. They are supposedly " survivors " of BDSM lifestyles. I met with the first group this afternoon and I had such a hard time not telling the doctor that half of the women in the group are submissives, even if they did not know it. I believe my biggest problem is going to be this doctor. She is very intellegent and does offer valid points. But she does not understand I can read her well enough to know that she has the submissive qualities too.
I have a number of areas I am working on and these are just a few. Any input is welcome and frankly, needed. I am trying to do my best to not tip my hand and tell them I know more about this lifestyle than they realize. I would like a bit of privacy in my life. Besides, I don't want people to know I flogged the first Lady until after I get into the Whitehouse.
How do I approach this situation without it being " the Wolf telling the Sheep how to avoid the Wolf'? Basically my part of this was to instruct the participants in basic self defense. Which is fine and dandy. Only one problem, the best self defense starts from within. Doesn't matter if you can defend your self if you mind won't let you do it. So , I have break this barrier of they deserve it, it is fate, or they are a sub and they are not supposed to say no. Most I have no problem with and i am sure I will figure out a workable way. But not being a sub myself, I have never been taken, so maybe it is more help in this area I need. Thanks.

1. Lose the idea that it's your job, nay, even you RIGHT to inform anyone that they are a sub or not a sub. We all get to walk our own walk in life, if they need to get there they'll get there on their own. Being told "you're a submissive" or "you're not really a submissive" always struck me as the height of arrogance. Did someone come along and proclaim you a Dom? Doubt it.

2. Few submissives are going to want to be "taken" by a stranger in reality. It might be hot in your head as a fantasy, but most submissives draw a distinction and would like to be able to fight off a rapist as well as, well...you would.

3. The most I might risk in this professional context would be to try and point them toward some more balanced resources about BDSM, but I'd do this very cautiously, and definitely with a sense of personal and professional detachment. If someone's mind is already made up on the issue, all the education in the world isn't going to solve the problem. I think it's important to seek out sources that stress informed consent, and how mutual agreements are made in SM. also, you might consider it a *waste of resources* to prosecute someone who is playing rough with a spouse when someone's having the shit beat out of her without her consent across town.

 

[LadyAndrivete]

Deleted.

 

[redelicious]

It seems to me that you should bow out if you are feeling a serious conflict of interests. Or just teach self-defense and leave it at that.

 

[SkyBluAngelEyes]

We were having a discussion and part of it brought up the BDSM lifestyle and how it supposedly promotes the idea of rape as acceptable in society. How it damages the self esteem of a Sub into accepting rape as just there fate and how it promotes in a Dom the right to do it and not consider it rape. They are supposedly " survivors " of BDSM lifestyles.

Hmmmm... Well first off, I agree with Netzach and keep it on the QT that you "know" that they are subs. Your observations, while having good intentions can end up backfiring.

And, I had no idea that BDSM could have survivors. That almost made me laugh out loud.

Rape is not a consensual act. Although, rape fantasies are common in women, (I admit, I've had them) they are not something any woman would want in real life. IF rape were to happen in a real life scenario, I'd be bustin' my ass to ward off any offender who thinks it is his "right". Any man who violates that trust is not a true Dom, in my eyes (IMVHO). Rape is not my fate, nor is it the fate of any sub I know. If anything, and being on both sides of the coin, I'd say that BDSM has more love and control than that of any vanilla relationship I've been in.

Just because I am a sub does not mean that I am doormat. As a sub, I know I am there for His use. Doms are the ones in control, they are the ones that obviously have the upper hand (to an extent) in scenes and when the going gets too rough or out of hand, safewords may be used. When that has been implimented and yet the "Dom" continues to brutilize their victim, then it becomes rape.

Flame at will... I'm climbing off my soapbox

I have a number of areas I am working on and these are just a few. Any input is welcome and frankly, needed. I am trying to do my best to not tip my hand and tell them I know more about this lifestyle than they realize. I would like a bit of privacy in my life. Besides, I don't want people to know I flogged the first Lady until after I get into the Whitehouse.

You shouldn't have to tell them as it is none of their business what your lifestyle entails. But, if you've read up on the subject, be honest and tell them that. Share with them the knowledge you've learned.

 

[ShyGuy68]

We were having a discussion and part of it brought up the BDSM lifestyle and how it supposedly promotes the idea of rape as acceptable in society. How it damages the self esteem of a Sub into accepting rape as just there fate and how it promotes in a Dom the right to do it and not consider it rape.

Being a Dom, I have to vent a bit here. I for one would object a lot, if anybody stated that in front of me, no matter if they knew if I'm into the lifestyle or not. Rape is NOT acceptable at all, in my version of the lifestyle. Yes play rape is often something that's used, and I won't object to indulging into it myself, but rape isn't acceptable at all, and I'm sure the majority in the lifestyle think that way as well.

 

[PyroDemon]

Thanks alot people. I was never intending on telling anyone they are a sub or even bringing it up if possible. This is not my first experience in this. Actually I have been perticipating in these for over 20 years. The only element now is I am going to work with a group of so called BDSM survivors. My job is simply to instruct I realize this.

It was late, I was very tired from debating all day and did not express myself properly. I am working on a plan now and will of course figure it out and accomplish what I think I should for this endeavor. I have another day of working on this panel today and of course we will continue our discussions. I will have more to rant about later I am sure. Thanks for the input.

 

[catalina_francisco]

I must admit to a little confusion here. If they have been described to you as survivors of the BDSM lifestyle (or was that your assumption after meeting them?), where do you feel you have to avoid revealing half of the members of the group are submissives.....wouldn't that already have been established if they are supposedly abuse victims from the lifestyle? And what are the other half of the group.....switches, dominants? And why didn't these women who were supposedly in the lifestyle know they were submissives and need you to now identify them as such? As for the idea you have you can read the head doctor you see as being your biggest problem, as being a submissive, I tend to think you might be focusing on the wrong point. Whether she is a submissive or not herself really should not have any bearing on whether she knows what she is talking about in relation to rapeand abuse...it is her knowedge, experiences, and understanding which denotes that. Nor in reality should it have to relate to the women if they have been abused...submissive or not, abuse is not okay.

As to the topic of submissives, the lifestyle, abuse and rape...yes, it can and does happen...there are several groups and organisations who work toward helping abused submissives...many of them run by people who are part of the lifestyle themselves. So if you are working with self identified submissives you need to be focusing on safety issues as relevant to the lifestyle, and ensuring they know as subs they do not have to accept abusers masquarading as Dominants harming them. If they are vanilla women who have been abused and you are seeing them as submissives who just have not realised it, I think you might at the least need to decline to be part of the programme.

As to the discussion with your colleagues where the lifestyle was discussed, I would certainly have felt compelled to set the facts straight in a respectful and professional manner (and I have as a professional done this without mentioning my own interests), perhaps pointing them in the direction of resources to broaden their knowledge base...no-one can know everything and it is these unique situations which allow opportunities for professionals to become informed about another facet of the community they may not have had contact with before. You do not necessarily have to reveal your own interests on a personal basis....it can be explained as something you came across and worked with elsewhere in your career, an area you studied in the course of your professional training, something you came across through someone else and decided to educate yourself, etc. I get the impression it is your personal values and preferences which is influencing how you see these women and their abuse.....it is not unusual, but is an area professionals have to be aware of and control in an approriate way which allows them to deal with the issue from the client's perspective and reality, not the professional's personal experience, preference, reality, and judgements.

Catalina

 

[bridgeburner]

This is a bit tangential, but the best advice has already been given (nod to Netzach and Catalina) so I'm going to wander off a bit here on something that I've thought about a lot over the years.

Some women don't know how to say "No" effectively.

They wheedle and plead and demur all the while they are still flirting and some part of them is still saying "You can make me if you push a little harder." Deep down they don't believe they have the right or the power to control their own bodies and lives.

This does not in any way shape or form mean it's permissible to rape them or take advantage of them, but it does mean that there is a greater potential for mixed signals and it puts these women at risk to those who are willing to push hard for what they want.

A couple years ago I stopped by to see a friend. When I got there she was visibly upset and I asked her what was wrong. Seems that a guy she'd been sort of seeing recently had come over and in the course of his visit demanded a blow-job. She didn't want to do it but she ended up sucking him off, crying the whole time.

He didn't hit her. He didn't threaten her. He didn't pull a weapon on her or physically menace her. He just demanded it and she did it and later she felt as if she'd been raped because she did something that she hadn't wanted to do.

Now what the fuck do you say to that? She was obviously hurting and upset so I couldn't bring myself to ask her "Why didn't you tell him to fuck off and show him the door?" But that's what I thought. Sure, he's an asshole but he's an opportunist, not a rapist.

I have watched this same friend get herself into potentially dangerous situations on many occasions. She's ended up fucking a lot of guys that she really didn't want to fuck. I can see why it happens. She cannot say -- literally is incapable of saying -- "No" in any meaningful way.

There are an awful lot of women out there like this to varying degrees although my friend is a rather extreme example. They've been stripped of their power and self-worth by whatever means --- societal, parental, incidental --- and unless they are lucky they will end up being victimized not so much because the world is full of predators but because they cannot make themselves understood when they mean No.

I have a feeling this is what happened in the Kobe Bryant case. The woman really doesn't want to but she doesn't want to be rude or mean or whatever and so she isn't firm enough when she says No and the guy goes right ahead with his plan never imagining that he is raping the woman and the woman feels not only raped but ineffectual because she couldn't make herself understood and blames herself for the incident.

Learning to say No with authority is one of the best self-defense tactics of all.


-B

 

[PyroDemon]

Thank you Catalina and Netzach, and everyone else. You have all expressed similiar thoughts of mine. I simply needed a sounding board. I was rather thrown into this because of a experience by one of my former employees. It is a long story. I was asked rather late into this program and it is supposedly a new one and as such in the infant stage. I am well aware of the help groups and that is one of the things I have been collecting data on.
The groups are varied, I will have five groups of ten to start with as a test. Some are men, most are women. One group is let's say identified as being in a BDSM relationship and have deep emotional problems stemming from it. I have not been given my briefings yet so I am assuming alot of this. I am just preparing myself ahead of time and your replies are helping me greatly.

Although my "job" is simply self defense as it was so rudely pointed out to me today, there is one facet of it few will understand. I can teach you a thousand ways to protect yourself but if you cannot say " no" or will not use what you have been taught then it is of no use to them . This has and will always be the biggest part of trying to teach one self protection. Normally in a school setting they gain this confidence over a period of time. Time is not something I have alot of with them and am simply trying to approach things differently than normally.

The conversations and debates I am having with this panel is intense if nothing else. Whether they are unknowing subs, doms, or switches isn't relevant. I do admit to the fact that their ideas of BDSM and rape have set me off and I am on a rampage with them right now over it. It is kinda fun. Most of this cannot spill out into the program as it is simply between the panel members.
We will see what goes on. My first class is Saturday and I about setup for it. If they do not ever use what they learn is something I cannot control most likely. Atleast they get to beat the hell out of a couple of my students for a week.

 

[Pure]

Hi Pyro,

I'm not entirely clear on Catalina's message, but I think I catch the drift, and would say something similar.

P: //We were having a discussion and part of it brought up the BDSM lifestyle and how it supposedly promotes the idea of rape as acceptable in society. How it damages the self esteem of a Sub into accepting rape as just there fate and how it promotes in a Dom the right to do it and not consider it rape. I know, I had a difficult time in holding my tongue and letting them talk till they finished. //

It seems to me that what's happening is the docs are using DSM III or maybe IV, and looking at pathological sadism and masochism. And these may be, largely, in abusive situations.

So I don't think you're correct in saying

//half of the women in the group are submissives, even if they did not know it. //

They are not (I suggest) submissives in the usual sense within the BDSM community (regardless of their self labels or psychiatrist labels).

They are people who have submitted to, or been forced into submission by aggressive and possibly sadist males.

As others have indicated, it's doubtful, they got turned on in their self chosen (=tolerated) rape-like situations.

So, as other posters have said, the counselling problem is to help rebuild self confidence and ability to choose non-nasty partners.

I'd further suggest that no more (of them) than in the general population are into a variety of SM which is consensual and legal, let's say 10%. IOW, I *DON'T* see this as a prime recruiting ground for consensual SM.

So, in fact, according to my reading of your postings, you have a very limited problem. You don't have to educate anyone about SM, since they are using their own terminology, and talking oranges, where you're talking apples.

Only among the 10%, is there something you might do. That would be AFTER the person is on her feet and not getting abused or choosing abusers or generally being a passive victim in life.
If, *at the point* you have someone getting turned on by bondage fantasies, and they are healthy enough to want to do it and survive, then there could be some education.

 

[DVS]

you've got a lot of good advice here, but for some reason I felt compelled to post. I think it was the rape thought process of the psychiatrist. I've known more than one psychiatrist and they tend to go that route, when thinking of BDSM.

I guess the text books are all written by vanilla doctors who haven't experienced the lifestyle themselves and are all outside looking in. That's the trouble with a lot of this line of work, in my opinion.

And, because of this, it would be wise to keep quiet about your "experience" in this area. Psychiatrists get their degrees from going to school, and although your experience from "on the job" so to speak might be better informed in some areas of this, you are not likely to change someone's point of view very quickly, if at all.

All doctors seem to be more holier than thou, when it comes to their profession. Although Doms in this lifestyle don't consider rape as a way to force ourselves on the subs, it has happened.

Also, sometimes psychiatrists go into this profession to understand their own strange feelings. I know of one who did just that.

Most patients these doctors see come to them because they feel they are mentally ill or they have been raped and need counseling. Within this counseling, a doctor can and does make his/her own decisions, from what the patient actually says, twisting things into one of their mental models. Someone new to the lifestyle, unfortunately gets raped and is confused that it was OK. The doctor somehow thinks she went looking for it. Unfortunately. it does happen. It's then added to the BDSM label.

But, the healthy submissive woman rarely visits a psychiatrist, and so her side of the story isn't told. It also isn't in the text books, so your version will be completely glossed over as just your opinion. After all, the psychiatrist has been to school.

I'd take others advice and keep things to yourself.

 

[Betticus]

I think the BDSM survivor label is used way out of context when referring to any rape victim.

Rape is rape. Whether it is done in a parking lot, concert, your wedding bed or anywhere or with any group of people. Just like murder is murder it is a crime. There may just be people out there using BDSM as a cover for their crime but to blame it on BDSM is irresponsible. It's like blaming Ford if you get raped on the hood of one of their cars.

I also agree with the others. You will not change the mind of a trained professional even if she is completely wrong.

Consider the possibility that this psychiatrist may be involved in this program in order to somehow and in a safe way for her live out her own rape/BDSM fantasies vicariously through other women who have suffered abuse.

I'd keep my mouth shut though. Or if she is that interested and wants to research it send her here to ask around.

 

[Netzach]

Maybe the problem isn't that the shrink is trying to hash out her own BDSM identity everyone's wet dreams here but maybe because she's only encountered BDSM as tied to some kind of pathology that there's a problem.

That's not the only clinical model out there, as we all know. The best way to change thinking like that is to support groups that are doing groundwork and grassroots change.

Being antagonistic towards medical and law enforcement communities, as I sense we often are, is the worst way to try to get anyone to think differently. We need neutral, logical discussions about sexual diversity, not a chance to needle the "dumb and ignorant" vanillas at every turn.

 

[Etoile]

It seems to me that you should bow out if you are feeling a serious conflict of interests. Or just teach self-defense and leave it at that.

Yeah, I'm in agreement with this. It sounds like you are going to be influenced by your own experiences, and perhaps you're not the best person for this particular activity.

 

[DVS]

Yeah, I'm in agreement with this. It sounds like you are going to be influenced by your own experiences, and perhaps you're not the best person for this particular activity.

Actually, there are an awful lot of so called professionals who are giving advice to people about things when they have no real time experience.

Not that this weighs in as the opposite viewpoint, but it might give reason for thought. If one can keep a level head about the situation to not persuade one way or the other, I'd think some real time experience in a counselor is better than none at all. After all, if these are so called survivors of the BDSM lifestyle, doesn't it make sense to have at least some background in that area?

This is just an observation. I'm not a doctor, nor do I play one on TV.