Rant: The dangerous goodguy

[3113]

but I don't believe that half the readers of Loving Wives are a bunch of knuckle-dragging misogynists lost in dreams about dealing out "just punishment". It is an interesting question though: What exactly drives an infidelity story?

I don't think there's any doubt that these readers find such stories an addictive pleasure. Which means, try as you might to upgrade them, I fear they are knuckle-dragging misogynists. They may have started out with the usual revenge fantasies that we all have for someone who did us wrong. But the pleasure they felt from it was more addictive to them then for most of us.

Watching others suffer horribly—especially women who got burned at the stake or tortured by inquisitions—has been historically addictive and sexually arousing. Even our fairytales (Grimm's there) that were told to children included horrible punishments for the wicked (again, typically women). There is a gruesome pleasure out of such. There is also the addictive thrill of power, as in rape. Overpowering someone is, again, arousing.

Combine that with sex, our most irresistible pleasure, and you've got a hard-core addict. A man who jerks off and comes to stories of a cheating woman and her guy being outrageously mutilated. Because, of course, once you're hooked, the drug has to be amped up and up to offer the same thrill. This sort of man can't see women as anything other than evil erotic creatures who deserve such. To do so would mean giving up his pleasure, and addicts don't want to do that.

So, of necessity if nothing else, these men have made themselves knuckle dragging misogynists. If they were otherwise, such stories would either strike them as ridiculous or abhorrent or in need of some complexity as you're arguing. To get that sexual thrill from such stories, they have to, well, dumb themselves down. Thinking, as we all know, interferes with pleasure; and simple fantasies deliver the best high as they don't require much thinking, just arousing images.

Yes? Maybe?

 

[SEVERUSMAX]

I would note that I was in a semi-serious relationship when I met my wife, though it petered out about the same time, partly because I was not going for monogamy myself. My wife understood that and entered our relationship with eyes wide open on that issue, though I was reluctant to chase a married woman, not because of any belief in monogamy, but because I didn't want to be an agent of Cosmic injustice in helping someone deceive someone else. Once I was sure that the marriage was already kaput, however, I went for it.

So, again, not sure where that would put me on the "good guy vs. bad guy" continuum as defined by certain folks.

 

[StrangeLife]

So, of necessity if nothing else, these men have made themselves knuckle dragging misogynists. If they were otherwise, such stories would either strike them as ridiculous or abhorrent or in need of some complexity as you're arguing. To get that sexual thrill from such stories, they have to, well, dumb themselves down. Thinking, as we all know, interferes with pleasure; and simple fantasies deliver the best high as they don't require much thinking, just arousing images.

Yes? Maybe?

That explanation is sorta scary, but it makes sense.

Remember those eighties revenge flicks - Deathwish, The Exterminator and so on? It was always about young punks (whatever that means) acting like total animals and subsequently getting killed brutally by a middle-aged man out for justice. I watched a Deathwish sequel in the theater and was amazed of how the audience - composed of mostly middle aged men - was cheering when Charles Bronson offed generic punk number xxx. I think I see a connection here. Those people probably had their cars stolen, been robbed or been violated in some way, and now they felt the rush of adrenaline from the fantasy of reclaiming their pride and feeling of self-worth. All triggered by Bronson and his Wildey Magnum. If a person feels short-changed by life and - especially - love, I can see how the same rush could be generated by stories about extreme punishment of women, and the men who get to enjoy what is rightfull yours.

So my lack of understanding comes from viewing the problem from a wrong angle I guess. I was always more concerned about what made the best story - I neither read nor write so-called strokers - and physical btb rarely makes for an immersive read. But I guess people want it. Even so I will claim that you can make good and satisfying btb without resorting to cheap graphic violence. Case in point this excellent story by Jezzaz about a confrontation between two spouses where one is a cheater. The entire exchange with the spouse is done verbally and it works great - both as a story and as an outlet for righteous rage. So maybe the diminishing quality of cheating spouse stories have more to do with the fact that good writers are staying away from Loving Wives - like Lovecraft says - than any inherent issue with the btb-style...

I would note that I was in a semi-serious relationship when I met my wife, though it petered out about the same time, partly because I was not going for monogamy myself. My wife understood that and entered our relationship with eyes wide open on that issue, though I was reluctant to chase a married woman, not because of any belief in monogamy, but because I didn't want to be an agent of Cosmic injustice in helping someone deceive someone else. Once I was sure that the marriage was already kaput, however, I went for it.

So, again, not sure where that would put me on the "good guy vs. bad guy" continuum as defined by certain folks.?

You would probably be a subjective badguy (as seen from the point of view of your then partner and the hubby of your present wife), but objectively you could very well be that dangerous goodguy I was referring to. Usually a badguy isnt going for stealing the wife and building a life with her - he just want the sex - and even if he does, the relationships typically dont last long. You sound like you are doing ok, so you were probably the optimal choice for her.

As far as being a subjective badguy in the eyes of your previous partners, I cant help noticing your emphasis on your own relationship being "semi-serious" and your present wife living in a "failed, already doomed marriage". Are you sure your ex also knew that you guys were only "semi-serious". And was your wifes ex aware that his marriage was "doomed"?

Sometimes we tend to justify wrong-doings by claiming inevitibility yknow. Im not suggesting anything here... just making an observation...

 

[lovecraft68]

A friend of mine has been making e-covers for my books, this is one of the new ones.

Think the guy on the bed is the nice guy?

 

[SEVERUSMAX]

You would probably be a subjective badguy (as seen from the point of view of your then partner and the hubby of your present wife), but objectively you could very well be that dangerous goodguy I was referring to. Usually a badguy isnt going for stealing the wife and building a life with her - he just want the sex - and even if he does, the relationships typically dont last long. You sound like you are doing ok, so you were probably the optimal choice for her.

As far as being a subjective badguy in the eyes of your previous partners, I cant help noticing your emphasis on your own relationship being "semi-serious" and your present wife living in a "failed, already doomed marriage". Are you sure your ex also knew that you guys were only "semi-serious". And was your wifes ex aware that his marriage was "doomed"?

Sometimes we tend to justify wrong-doings by claiming inevitibility yknow. Im not suggesting anything here... just making an observation... [/QUOTE]

Well, my larger point was that we can't really objectively know who is or isn't the "good guy" type. Some in society would label me that and others the "bad guy". The criteria you listed might be popular ones, but who determines or is an authority on such things? For someone like me who both opposes and despises double standards, the other man's relationships with other partners is only relevant if the wife is unaware of them, rather than walking in with their eyes open.

My ex was well aware that our relationship was difficult, due to both of those dealbreakers, since she wanted monogamy and I frankly couldn't in fairness ask her to give up her salon, her business, to move to the States, nor could I bring myself to cross the Pond to move to England with all of the issues that might be involved there. I was upfront with my ex, as with my wife, about things, so that was always an issue with her, just as it was not with my wife.

My wife's ex was in serious denial about the state of his marriage, but he knew that things were wrong. He just didn't accept that it was too late. She had wanted counseling and he refused to consider it until it was already too late. When she told him, he was very upset, but she made it clear to both of us that her marriage was over. He blamed it, oddly enough, on a female friend of my wife's, actually thinking that she was having a lesbian affair, but that was dead wrong, since she was really with me.

Again, I had hesitated, seriously, even considering getting involved with her until I was confident that her marriage was all over but the paperwork.

 

[3113]

I will claim that you can make good and satisfying btb without resorting to cheap graphic violence.

LOL! Well, that's a different argument. Yes, I'd agree that it can be done. But if the readers in LW are there for knuckle dragging misogyny, I'm not at all sure how well it will do. But then, I don't usually read stories in LW. I'm presuming there are other readers who want more?

 

[jezzaz]

I think the entire thing is both much simpler and much more complex (at the same time), than most of the arguments put forth so far.

People want simple, black vs white stories, because life is already hard and complex and there are so many grey area's. I think they want it to be clear, based on the encoded rules of society, who is the good guy and who is the bad guy, so they can relax in terms of deciding who to root for, and just enjoy the ride from then on.

You know who the good guy is, because he doesn't break the rules of society (at least, not first, usually), and the other guy does, ergo, you boo and hiss him.

I think they want that just because we spend our day already trying to decide who to trust, who is out of their own profit over ours, who doesn't care, and who we want to make care. It's a hard enough life without having to do that in fiction too - which is why our fiction is, by definition, escapist fantasy.

A mind fuck - where the good guy turns out bad or the bad guy turns out good - can either work really well, or can (more usually) turn out wrong, when the reader is then shown to have put all their energies into supporting someone who, it turns out, doesn't deserve it.

Don't get me wrong - being able to do that is clever. Very clever. But don't expect to be rewarded for it.

 

[StrangeLife]

A friend of mine has been making e-covers for my books, this is one of the new ones.

Think the guy on the bed is the nice guy?

I love the facial expression of the guy in the door...


But yes, if we assume the guy on the bed to be the lover, he could be the objectively goodguy. That doesn't necessarily mean that he is nice, but he may possess all the traits the wife needs in a man and ultimately be the better choice of partner for her. If that is indeed the case, he is serious threat to the marriage.

 

[lovecraft68]

I love the facial expression of the guy in the door...


But yes, if we assume the guy on the bed to be the lover, he could be the objectively goodguy. That doesn't necessarily mean that he is nice, but he may possess all the traits the wife needs in a man and ultimately be the better choice of partner for her. If that is indeed the case, he is serious threat to the marriage.

Seriously, that guy made me laugh my ass off when she first showed me the cover, he looks like such a d-bag!

That story is here on lit "How do we look Baby"

The husband(and this guy does not look like him, he was kind of a fat slob) cheats on the wife and she gets even by fucking the young landscaper who is a nice kid, but I don't think was a "good guy" he'd been flirting with her here and there so whens he said let's go for a ride, he said sure.

 

[StrangeLife]

Well, my larger point was that we can't really objectively know who is or isn't the "good guy" type. Some in society would label me that and others the "bad guy". The criteria you listed might be popular ones, but who determines or is an authority on such things? For someone like me who both opposes and despises double standards, the other man's relationships with other partners is only relevant if the wife is unaware of them, rather than walking in with their eyes open.

The one who determines what constitutes an objective goodguy is ultimately the wife.

And it doesn't have to be a family-oriented high earner. My sister walked out of a marriage to a successful corporate attorney and hooked up with a ragged bearded tree-hugger who spends his days saving the world and the environment,- just as she does. She has never been happier - is always all fired up against some big business that's killing the planet - so he was definitely a goodguy in my book.

And you obviously found a woman who shares your values and lifestyle, which makes you a goodguy for her. Although the willingness to accept an open marriage is not quite part of the "objective" set of traits, but for a woman with an adventurous spirit and an open mind, you were probably a great find.

My ex was well aware that our relationship was difficult, due to both of those dealbreakers, since she wanted monogamy and I frankly couldn't in fairness ask her to give up her salon, her business, to move to the States, nor could I bring myself to cross the Pond to move to England with all of the issues that might be involved there. I was upfront with my ex, as with my wife, about things, so that was always an issue with her, just as it was not with my wife.

My wife's ex was in serious denial about the state of his marriage, but he knew that things were wrong. He just didn't accept that it was too late. She had wanted counseling and he refused to consider it until it was already too late. When she told him, he was very upset, but she made it clear to both of us that her marriage was over. He blamed it, oddly enough, on a female friend of my wife's, actually thinking that she was having a lesbian affair, but that was dead wrong, since she was really with me.

Again, I had hesitated, seriously, even considering getting involved with her until I was confident that her marriage was all over but the paperwork.

If I can play the devils advocate for a moment, I could use the argument that people generally work a lot harder to repair a sinking ship, if they don't have a safety raft ready. Since you were the "safety raft" for the wife, her motivation for salvaging her marriage was probably significantly less than it would have been without your presence. You could thus have been a catalyst for breaking them up, even if you didn't intend to be.

Another general trait for us humans is that we are creatures of habit. After a divorce it takes us a while to get used to the fact that the woman who was our wife no longer is. If she hooks up with a new guy right away chances are good that the old hubby will suffer from severe jealousy and anger, despite the fact that he no longer has any right to feel that way about her. Therefore it is a lot easier on the spouse left behind, if the divorcer doesn't jump from one bed to the next right away, but takes it slow and lives alone for a while. So you likely caused the husband extra pain and anger just by being there for the wife.

Once again, please don't see this as me being judgemental - I am merely pointing out a few issues as I see them. Rest assured that I would do exactly the same as you did - hell, if I were single and fell in love I would rip her out of a happy marriage with ten kids, if it came down to that. Yolo!

 

[drchano]

BTB or BTBATB (burn the bitch AND the bastard) demand melodrama. I've only seen a couple LW cheat tales where hubby wins back his love by being nicer than the bull

Examples please.

 

[drchano]

Now that would have been a serious challenge for the protagonist where the outcome would have been anything but given. There would have been more tension, a clear sense of peril and the pay-off by a positive conclusion would be equally larger.

So what am I saying with all this? Well, the gist of it all is, that if you write infidelity stories don't make your badguys "too bad". It might increase the ethos and justification of the protagonist, but it also drains the story of danger and tension, because a badguy in this type of story is in reality weaker the badder you make him. And as said previously, the quality of the badguy decides the quality of the story.

.

But the point of LW stories, by and large, is to bring down the wife. If she picked a good guy, then our protagonist would have to say, "Well, she's got good judgement in men, he's going to treat her right and take care of her; I can't really fault her for picking him over me; maybe this guy is more right for her...." Which, by the way, is EXACTLY what you see the protagonists in the two movies you mentioned think. The woman is not brought down by her choice. She remains worthy, forgiven, maybe even elevated higher.

.

Yes, when someone breaks their word to you and in so doing, tricks you into a double standard by causing you to unknowingly be more faithful than they, it is an injustice and there should be consequences....but he/she is not a possession. The other person didn't "steal" him/her away. Any consequences should be somewhat sane and civilized, otherwise you become worse than a cheater: you become a criminal.

Here lies the problem with the argument. While I myself don't side with the BTB crowd, there are limits. Sure, there can be nuances in these situations and times where the home wrecker is more sympathetic. But I can't help with the dynamics StrangeLife is pushing are more appropriate for courtship and dating stories than infidelity stories.

Because at the heart of this is commitment and honor. If you're in a marriage or a committed relationship, you choose to stick with your partner and only your partner. If the other person cheats, it's like you wasn't serious with the relationship and like to fuck with the partner. It doesn't matter if the homewrecker is Scummy McEvilface or the nicest guy in town, I'm going to consider you a jackass. Which is why I'm irked by this:

No. Recognise that the "other guy" is the better choice for the women they love, as described in the original post. That doesn't require super powers - only logic.

Of course where Superman and Batman go beyond what most men would do, is respecting this assessment and giving up their women to the other guy. Most normal men would be selfish and fight for their girl regardless of the other guys qualities.

This is the line of reasoning seen in the cuckhold genre. Like I said, I'm not much a fan of the btb story (unless it truly warrants it). But if there's an infidelity story where the protagonist is a "good guy" and the interloper is a "good guy", I can only see this being a good story if the protagonist wins the significant other's love back. Having it end like what you describe above is not really asking for a more interesting story where the protag has to fight for his love, you're asking for gentile cuckholdry. The examples you and others described are side stories to make a point for a larger narrative. You're trying to make these side stories the narrative itself and in such case, you don't make Superman and Batman the protags.

There are plenty of people more superior to me and probably those more superior a partner for my significant other. Then my significant other should've looked harder for that guy instead of choosing me. A challenge in keeping the love of your significant other doesn't hurt, but I and many other will be sour if it leads to infidelity and a bad ending for the protagonist. So, unless the dynamic you're pushing ends with the protag winning and the SO remaining faithful, this just adds conflict and drama for an umbrella genre intended to get you aroused.

 

[RandyVicar]

I'll go a step farther and say that the antagonist is not a "badguy". Especially in infidelity, motives and emotions are necessarily complex. No one sets out to be a villain in someone else's story. It may offend the reader's sensibilities, but a lot of adultery stories are also love stories from the POV of the unfaithful spouse and their lover.

Delores Umbridge is a tasty villain, but Severus Snape is a lot more interesting and beloved because his motives are so complex. Harry Potter's dad was a martyr, but he was also a bully.

In Casablanca, the entire movie is told from the perspective of the unfaithful wife and her lover.

 

[ElectricBlue]

Examples please.

Drchano - you are responding to a three year old thread. There's nothing wrong with that, except that the conversation is over, those involved probably gone. This might go nowhere...

 

[49greg]

I've only read the OP on this one, so I'm probably stepping on it, but here goes.

I was the interloper one time. It was between my first wife and the love of my life. I sowed the wild oats that I never had earlier.

I met a nice lady and we had an affair that lasted several months. She claimed that she had an 'arraingement with her husband. As time went on I realized that he knew nothing. She did talk about him a lot and he seemed like a really nice guy. I finally ended it simply because I felt really bad about doing it with her, while her husband seemed like a nice guy.

Had she described him as a dick, or even said anything negative about him I wouldn't have felt bad. The worse thing she said was that he looked like "howdy doodie".

Well, the same was said about me when I was younger. She was upset and really angry when I told her that her husband seemed like a nice guy that I would like if I knew him.

So in this case, the husband/cuckold won because he was a good guy. Of course I wasn't the first affair she had, and I'm sure not the last.

 

[drchano]

I'll go a step farther and say that the antagonist is not a "badguy". Especially in infidelity, motives and emotions are necessarily complex. No one sets out to be a villain in someone else's story. It may offend the reader's sensibilities, but a lot of adultery stories are also love stories from the POV of the unfaithful spouse and their lover.

Delores Umbridge is a tasty villain, but Severus Snape is a lot more interesting and beloved because his motives are so complex. Harry Potter's dad was a martyr, but he was also a bully.

In Casablanca, the entire movie is told from the perspective of the unfaithful wife and her lover.

The "complex" excuse is getting old. And the they're crappy stories no matter how you look at them.