Racial Profiling?

[Sparky Kronkite]

IF………

It's a fact that most of the people arrested for doing a specific criminal activity - like dealing drugs let's say - are Orange - and everybody, and I mean everybody, no matter what color they are - know, that most, not all but most, drug dealers do in fact appear to be Orange. And let's say that it's also known that with great consistency lots of Orange drug dealers do in fact ride Yellow Horses.

THEN………

Why, when an officer of the law sees an Orange guy riding a Yellow Horse on the Jersey Turnpike "and simply thinks" to himself - hey, maybe that's a drug dealer - is that wrong? Why are some saying that that officer - who could likely be Orange himself - has been improperly trained? Why is this normal, rational, thought process considered racist?

 

[Expertise]

Ahhh the wonderful world of PC. Profiling is not racism no matter what you might say. It is statistics. The same argument and methodology could be applied to NHL hockey players who are the inverse of what you are driving at Sparky.

Fuck me. PC has gone WAY too far.

 

[wolfie69]

We have a constitution......????

Well I am not orange and do not ride a yellow horse... but I do have long hair and a beard and ride a motorcycle.... well we all know that guys like me belong to motorcycle gangs and these gangs deal drugs, commit murder ect.....

Since it is so well known that I do these things, many times officers of the law have just felt the need to stop me and check me out! I have had guns pulled on me by police officers... I have been patted down by police officers.....all because I look a certain way.

OK now.... I have never committed murder, I don't deal drugs or do them, I am not a member of a gang....So why do I have to put up with the bullshit????? Just because I ride a motorcycle????

I mean really dude!!!! lets get honest... In jersey not all blacks or hispanics deal drugs (this is what we are talking about) THere is a minority who do... but there is also a minority of whites who deal and asians ect....

We do not live in a police state YET! I mean look at the law... employers are banned from discriminating because of your color religion, sex.... So why should the police be able to pull you over JUST because you drive a certain type of car and your skin is a certain color?

If we allow this to continue we give up just another little piece of our freedom, I don't want to......

 

[Sparky Kronkite]

First of all.....

First - I did not indicate that the officer in question "acted" upon his thought. He just thought it.

And........

I ride, and have for nearly 35 years now - I've lost count of how many bikes I've owned. I've had hair styles a many - from the crack of my ass in the early 70's - to bald in the Marine Corps - to medium shoulder length - to a relatively short "Steve McQueen" style I were today. I've run with Pagans in West VA. And yes, not only have I been pulled over but I have been busted. Fact is I've dealt.

But today, not only do I appear to be - I actually am - a good person in this here society.

And you are "ideally" - totally right. But you are wrong too. Because we do not live in an ideal society.

Everybody profiles - everybody judges a book by its cover.

I'm not saying most people "irrationally conclude and cast unreal negative aspersions." Some few do, most don't.

I'm saying most all folks "are rationally wary." It's normal.

Everybody does that. Everybody.

And it goes the other way too. Look a car salesmen - and lawyers - and news anchors - jeez. You think they're good folks cause they got the 100 dollar comb-over and the white belt and shoes?

 

[Adoratrice]

*SIGH*.....My husband is a police officer and the fact is he works in a part of town that is predomanatly black (African American, take your pick) It is a rare sight to see someone of a differant race at any givin time. Still EVERYDAY he has to hear "You just pulled me over cause I'm Black" or "Man, this is racial" or "If I was white you wouldn't have stopped me" ...His partner who happens to be black, gets to hear " Your just an uncle Tom", "Your working for the man", "Your a sellout". Luckily my husband has a good sense of humor and laughs it off instead of letting it get to him. He knows that he had a reason to stop every person who has ever said this to him...be it speeding, turning left at a "no left turn "sign, expired plates, obstructed plates, failure to use turn signal or if they had been standing on the same street corner for 5 hours...no , these may not seem like a big deal but they are things that an officer can stop & site you for.If you are a law abiding citizen who happened to slip up then you face the consequences & pay your dues, if on the other hand you are not someone who takes responsibility for your actions (regardless of how minor an infraction) then you must place the blame on someone else...namely the officer who is picking on you. As an officer he knows that he will always be held to higher level of accountability, an unobtainable level of fairness, for he will never be able to please everyone and he is never right in the eyes of people who want to be justified in their search for the world to give them what they percieve they are due.

[Edited by Adoratrice on 10-12-2000 at 11:05 PM]

 

[Myrrdin]

In other areas it would be called risk assessment.
If you worked in an industry that had a high level of cash payments, you are more likely to be checked by the tax authorities.

If you worked in the construction industry you more likely to be targetted by the health and safety inspectors.

Its just a way for an authority with limited resources, to target those areas that have statistically a higher offence rate.

Which doesn't mean it's any less annoying for the ordinary law abiding citizen, when he feels he's being targetted just because of his ethnic background /profession / lifestyle.

 

[Silverlily]

I think Myrrdin hit the nail on the head, so to speak.

Humans are creatures of habit. If repeated sucess has been had with a certain formula, most people are apt to repeat it. It doesn't make it right, just likely. As for this thought process being normal and rational, I don't know. It certainly makes it the easiest.

And really, this scenario can be found within any group. Women and mechanics for example. How many times has a woman sprung for an engine rebuild because the mechanic gambled on the chance she wouldn't know the difference between a worn head gasket and fouled plugs?

Are all mechanics evil? No Are all cops evil? No. Are all long-haired guys with beards and motorcycles evil? I have to get back with you on that one.

 

[CW]

Fuck me. PC has gone WAY too far.

Ain't that the damned truth!!!!

 

[Sparky Kronkite]

Damn Right!!!!

Let's get back to calling an Orange an Orange.

Fuck those Orange fucker's and the Yella Horses they rode in on.

Fuck PC - that Horse of a different color. Clear.

Fuck everything clear! Clear fuckin' assholes.

Clear assholes? Yeah, crystal assholes. Healing assholes.

But, but, but.......

Fuck'em all!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[Expertise]

Not exactly what I was saying.

What I was saying is that PC has gotten to the point where sensibility's outweigh realities which is ridiculous in the extreme.

I don't judge by color or sexuality or whatever. But if I roll up on a street corner and see and adolescent in a certain type of apparel standing there for no obvious reason behaving in a certain manner I am gonna' think he is dealing.... and 95%, or more, of the time i'm going to be right. To suggest that this makes profiling wrong is insane.

 

[TN_Vixen]

I think we're missing the point here. It's not the "thought" that the black person driving the hooped up car, playing loud music, jumping out with 3 cell phones and a coupla pagers that's wrong here, it's action. When the police officers ACT on profiling prior to having any reason other than the "thought" then it's WRONG, period.

 

[wolfie69]

History repeats?

I think you hit it Tn...

An extreme example of this type of behavior, out of contol....Germany circa the 30's... You are jewish and all of a sudden forced to wear a star to identify yourself... you become less than a citizen, next you are forced onto a train in the middle of the night, taken away and killed... WHY? because you fit someones profile....

A very extreme example and I am sure it could not happen here.... ooops it did , ask Japanese americans during WW 2

I reaize we all have our personal prejudice but we are talking law enforcement here, or did I miss the point? What are we willing to sacrifice to feel safe?

KITTEN????? I can be very good when I am evil.....

[Edited by wolfie69 on 10-12-2000 at 12:29 PM]

 

[Expertise]

You can neither arrest nor search somebody based on it. True and GOOD. But what is being suggested is that I should not even consider the possibility because of it....utterly ludicrous

 

[Weinergirl]

A similar situation exists with US customs agents. It is a case of sucess rate and numbers. I think this issue of racial profiling should have it's focus in better training and education. I think it would also be helpful is there was a way to spotlight more often the good that people of various races do. So that when we see things in the media we know there is another side. Everyone thinks things based on what you've seen or stories you've heard or previous experience. I catch myself doing it all the time but right after I think that I remind myself everyone is an individual. They deserve as I do to be held accountable for the things that I do. By nature I'm a cautious person but I know the odds are that I'm seeing someone(an orange person, a cop, a biker, a contemporary blond blue eyed unproportionally busted beauty, a waitress, a customer service representative) who is a decent human being with similar needs and desires as my own. So I try to base my following actions on that premise and not what I saw on some made for TV drama.

It's a shame that the bad cops-racist/bigots, drug dealing orange persons, shiftless teenagers, beer swigging murderous bikers, anorexic shallow model types, rude waitresses, and incompetent customer service representatives get way more attention then the noble "Golden Rule" guy/gal. I'm glad cops are there looking for people who ignore the rules-no matter what their color.

signed
Wg-aka orange not hispanic to the census people

[Edited by Weinergirl on 10-12-2000 at 12:36 PM]

 

[*Eve*]

Whether some of you realize the problem or not, there is a problem, I can not begin to count the number of time, either my black or latino friends have been pulled over for simply being of color, and no they were not drug dealers. Yes they drove nice cars but I have sucessful friends. The assumption that 95% of men of color who own nice things are dealing is pretty ignorant and a problem in itself.
I do not doubt that men of color get pulled over for legitimate reasons and not all cops have that juvenile mentality unfortunately, a lot of them do. In a lot of cases DWB (driving while black) will get you pulled over a lot faster if you're driving a nice car in certain areas, just ask my friend who was beaten because he had purchased a new Jaguar. He was pulled over and asked to step out of his vehicle and they searched him and the car, and when he Dared to ask them what the problem was he was beaten. My cousin saved up to buy himself a BMW and wouldn't you know it? He was pulled over 3 times one the day he bought that car. He had never been pulled over before. If you think I'm exaggerating some of you need a wake up call.
My little brother will be getting his license soon and it breaks my heart to think of the number of times he'll be pulled over simply for the color of his skin. It is a major problem in the area that I live in. This is not a PC issue and that shouldn't even be brought into discussion, this is about small minded people in a position of power, using that power to promote their own small minded views.

[Edited by *Eve* on 10-12-2000 at 01:29 PM]

 

[Laurel]

Of course profiling is racist! If you harass a black man because he wears baggy pants and stands on a street corner WITHOUT ANY EVIDENCE THAT HE MIGHT HAVE COMMITTED A CRIME, then that's racist. Yes, certain "types" of people commit certain types of crimes in certain areas of our cities. However, that does not give authorities the right to assume that anyone with a certain skin color is a drug dealer or car thief.

This isn't "PC" - this is real life. You cannot identify a criminal by the manner in which they dress or act. You can only identify a criminal by evidence linking them to the crime, PERIOD. That's lazy police work at best, racist harassment at worst.

When I see some hulking black man on a corner in a hoodie, I don't exactly want to rush up and offer him a ride. However, that doesn't make him a criminal - that doesn't even necessarily make him a bad guy. Police officers have a great responsibility. They must have the ability to put their first impressions and preconceived notions aside and focus on EVIDENCE. If they cannot do that, they don't deserve the badge.

 

[TN_Vixen]

You can neither arrest nor search somebody based on it. True and GOOD. But what is being suggested is that I should not even consider the possibility because of it....utterly ludicrous- By Expertise

I disagree. LEGALLY you are not supposed to be able to arrest or search someone based upon it, but it HAPPENS all the time. Like *Eve* says, it is a serious problem. I have a lot of friends outside the white race who have this happen to them on a regular basis, whether in a car or not. It is wrong and it is a violation of their human rights! Profiling in thought is human nature, it is a way that we categorize and superfically lable things in order to relate it to past experience... that is not and could never be a crime. ACTING on profiling is exactly what we're talking about here, Expertise. If someone here suggested you shouldn't have the thought, then that is an impossibility and there would be no way to regulate that anyway, would there?

 

[Sparky Kronkite]

All valid thoughts but.....

Yer walking down the street. Yer stopped at a light. On the opposite corner there's a person. Looking at this person - any person - taking note of their appearance - the way they dress, the way they groom, their body language, their eye contact - in doing this you might wonder, and when you do - you/everybody - jumps to a quick assertion of just "who" that person "might be." Any intelligent person knows that this kind of super-quick judgement can be proven totally wrong, or partially wrong, or dead on accurate. But they/we all do it. What is intuition? What is sensibility? Insight and perception? It's all built on your accumulated knowledge (whether that be correct or incorrect) built on you experience. If you see a person in tattered clothes with poor grooming and it looks like he/she has been in that condition for quite some time - you assume - that this person might well live in a Maytag box in the alley. You don't assume that he/she is a rocket scientist. Sure you know you could be wrong - maybe he/she once was a rocket scientist but surely no more. But most of the time - you are right. Or pretty damn close. Why? Because in your personal experience you've run across "that type" before. A stereotype? Yes. When I see, to me, obvious gang members here on the subway - do I think very long that they are kids from well to do families out on Long Island just into Manhattan dressed like this for a lark. Hell no.

Insight, perception, acumen, intuition, a second sense - what ever you might want to call your personal radar detector of who other people are - works in you all the time. And in regard to cops it not only puts bad guys behind bars where they belong - it can save their lives.

 

[Expertise]

TNV & Laurel

But what you and Laurel are arguing against is illegal search and or seizure. Totaly different kettle of fish.

The stats are the stats. I know that these things take place far too frequently. But that is not what I am arguing, because it is flat out wrong and illegal to boot.

But if I drive by the corner of Canada and Bridge (in my town) and see a 17-25 year old standing on the corner doing "nothing" I am going to ask that my partner (auxillary cop talking here)to stop the cruiser and I am going to go talk to him. Until I see some actual evidence of wrongdoing I am neither going to search or "question him". But I am going to talk to him because I am, based on past experience, going to have a damn good idea what hes doing there. That is based on profiling. If he is doing nothing wrong I haven't negatively affected him in any appreciable way, if he is but I don't have evidence of it I have at least interdicted his sales for the day, if I see evidence of it I am going to arrest him ad we have done our job.

I a nutshell profiling is intrinsic to humanity and based on statistics and experience. Illegal search and seizure is a crime and something else entirely.

 

[Laurel]

But if I drive by the corner of Canada and Bridge (in my town) and see a 17-25 year old standing on the corner doing "nothing" I am going to ask that my partner (auxillary cop talking here)to stop the cruiser and I am going to go talk to him. Until I see some actual evidence of wrongdoing I am neither going to search or "question him".

You are still approaching him on the assumption that he has done something wrong when you have no evidence that he has. Let's take this a step further... You're in your cruiser and you spot a lowered Lincoln Continental with a Latin-American male 17-25 years old in the front seat. Do you pull over so you can "talk to him"? Do you follow him home and knock on his door? How much are you allowed to disrupt his life without any probable cause whatsoever?

And despite your assertions, that's harassment and intimidation. What exactly is gained by talking to him? Do you think he'll say, "Oh nothing, Officer. I'm just standing here selling drugs." The whole purpose of "talking to him" is to intimidate him, under the assumption that he's doing something illegal - an assumption based on zero evidence.

You're right - stats are stats. They do NOT 100% accurately predict real life. Every longhair on a motorcycle is not a Hells Angel. Every black guy in baggy clothes is NOT a drug dealer. This isn't Iran. The government's desire to fight crime does not supercede an individual's right to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. Unless there is evidence that I committed a crime, leave me the f**k alone.

 

[Sparky Kronkite]

Laurel you are perfectly right....

But we do not live in a perfect world.

In certain professions assumptions of negativity involving stereotypes is necessary for survival. You simply have to suspect everyone in certain circumstances. Especially when you where a badge, are considered the enemy and therefor a target.

If you were a beat cop and maintained this way of thinking - I would seriously be concerned for you well being.

 

[RonG]

Bad Statistics

The problem with the logic behind racial profiling really is poor understanding of conditional probabilities and sampling. The statement "A large number of orange folks have been found and convicted of selling narcotics" is fairly inconsequential to the statement "There is an orange guy, there is a likelihood of him selling narcotics." This gets into the murky world of Bayesian sampling where the right hypothesis needs to be "seeing as there is an orange person, what is the likelihood that this individual sells narcotics?", trust me a far smaller probability (and not particularly larger than the probability that a blue person sells narcotics, chosen at random)than would justify a game of roullette. It falls into the same argument as more accidents are caused by sober drivers than drunk drivers, therefore we should hassle all sober drivers.

Some folks might remember the DNA arguments in the OJ case where they said there was a 1 in 4 billion chance of particular markers showing up in DNA and Barry Scheck correctly argued that the correct question was "Knowing that we have one such person (OJ) with this combination of markers, what is the probability that you could have more than one?" The LA prosecutors dropped the ball and were embarrassed to find out the probability of more than one person having the same markers was not nearly so small.

So what to do? Find other corroborative evidence to tip the scales that any particular orange person is engaging in criminal activity. Otherwise known as police work.

 

[TigerClaw]

.

 

[Sparky Kronkite]

Obviously correct......

Merely being orange does not a drug dealer make.... for sure….

But being orange, on a yellow horse, on Ave. A (here in Manhattan) at 3am - well it doesn't take much police brain to figure the "chances" are way, way up - that this particular orange dude "is probably" a drug dealer.

But he (the orange dude) has not committed a crime - at least no police person has witnessed him in the commission of a crime. The cop figures him for a dealer - all the signs point that way. But the cop hasn't seen anything bad.

What'er your choices?

As a cop....

A) Do you pretend he's not there? Just another normal person out for a stroll.

B) Walk right by him and "say hello" like it's normal being on Ave. A at 3am? Is saying hi harassment?

C) Do you walk up to him and ask to check his ID - explaining to him that it's a pretty strange thing - being out here on Ave. A at 3am - "mind if I see some ID please?" Is that harassment? Or is that common sense, intuitive police work.

D) Or do you just go over to him - your intuition from years on the force screaming at you - he's dirty, he's dirty - do you whop him upside the head and take him in? Now that's harassment, right? Sure it is.

E) Our do you pull your second from your ankle holster, walk up to him, put the barrel to his head and pull the trigger? Now!!! That's outright harassment. I'm certain of it.

 

[Sparky Kronkite]

Tiger........

Sounds like you'd better move from Jersey.