Quotes help

[xperia2995]

Hello everybody,
I am quite new to story writing here. I don't want to mess up my story so I am looking for some help.

Consider the following sentence

"Relax partner. There are some things that we must learn to accept. I see you are new here " the man beside him spoke.

I feel that I have used unnecessary spaces in this sentence.

1. I have used spaces after all full stops.
2. I have used one space before closing the quotes.
3.I have used one space after the closing quotation mark.

Can anyone tell me which of the three things i have listed here is wrong.
I really do not know which of the above a site editor would reject.

TIA

 

[Great_Brit]

1. I have used spaces after all full stops. Correct.
2. I have used one space before closing the quotes. Wrong. There does not need to be a space, but there should have been a comma.
3.I have used one space after the closing quotation mark. Correct.

"Relax partner. There are some things that we must learn to accept. I see you are new here," the man beside him spoke.

At least that is what the Queen's English demands. In the former colonies perhaps it is different?

BTW is "spoke" now a synonym for "said"?

 

[PennLady]

Also, it should be "Relax, partner."

Comma after relax. When you're giving a command, you put a comma before the person's name or title. Or, if you prefer, after the command verb. I'm sure there's a better way to explain this, so if that's not clear, let me know.

 

[elfin_odalisque]

An imperative sentence does not need an object - the subject and object are inferred, so, 'I want you to relax, partner' becomes 'Relax!' It's a bit like, 'Please sit down.' If you want to introduce the concept of partner, it's better done at the start of the second sentence: 'Partner, there are some things. . . '

I suspect this is the grain of sand that Penn Lady found a problem.

Punctuation does not affect 'spaces'. There is always a single space after words - and commas, quotation marks and full stops should be tied in, spaceless, to the preceding word - as Great Brit said.

Without context it's difficult to comment, but I think I would have shortened the speech tag to 'the man said'. He must be close to talk and 'spoke' is not really a dialogue tag.

 

[xperia2995]

Also, it should be "Relax, partner."

Comma after relax. When you're giving a command, you put a comma before the person's name or title. Or, if you prefer, after the command verb. I'm sure there's a better way to explain this, so if that's not clear, let me know.

Thank you for pointing out the mistake. So after putting the comma after the command.. should we capitalize the next letter?

 

[xperia2995]

1. I have used spaces after all full stops. Correct.
2. I have used one space before closing the quotes. Wrong. There does not need to be a space, but there should have been a comma.
3.I have used one space after the closing quotation mark. Correct.

"Relax partner. There are some things that we must learn to accept. I see you are new here," the man beside him spoke.

At least that is what the Queen's English demands. In the former colonies perhaps it is different?

BTW is "spoke" now a synonym for "said"?

Thanks a lot man..
Yeah, I guess it should be 'said'.
By the way, there will be lot of dialogue in the story right? so should I use a comma before every single closing quotes?
Or is this applicable only to 'said' ?

Also does "Who are you?" he asked... need to be like "Who are you?," he asked
(With the comma?)

 

[PennLady]

Thank you for pointing out the mistake. So after putting the comma after the command.. should we capitalize the next letter?

Only if the next letter is part of a proper name.

Thanks a lot man..
Yeah, I guess it should be 'said'.
By the way, there will be lot of dialogue in the story right? so should I use a comma before every single closing quotes?
Or is this applicable only to 'said' ?

Also does "Who are you?" he asked... need to be like "Who are you?," he asked
(With the comma?)

Oh this gets into bigger things. Okay -- if you are going to have a lot of dialogue, which is fine, then you do not want a "he said" or "she said" dialogue tag after every line. It will get boring. Sometimes, you can leave them off entirely. Other times, instead of using a dialogue tag, write something descriptive. Like:

"Where is the book?" She threw her hands up in frustration.
or
"I don't know what they were thinking." He shook his head.

In those cases, and cases with no tag, then use a period (or question mark or exclamation point, as appropriate) before the close quote. You can describe their tone of voice, their expression, their body language.

But if you want to write:

"Who are you?" he asked.

Then you only use the question mark and no comma after.

 

[sr71plt]

An imperative sentence does not need an object - the subject and object are inferred, so, 'I want you to relax, partner' becomes 'Relax!' It's a bit like, 'Please sit down.' If you want to introduce the concept of partner, it's better done at the start of the second sentence: 'Partner, there are some things. . . '

But there's certainly no reason why an author can't use it--and here, the "partner" is what is providing the flavor to the passage. This is the author's story, not yours. And I don't agree that it reads better in the second sentence than the first, as the author wrote it. I think the author's writing was more naturally rendered.

To the "spoke/said" issue, I think "said" would be better here. the "spoke" stops readers to consider the unusual use.

 

[elfin_odalisque]

But there's certainly no reason why an author can't use it--and here, the "partner" is what is providing the flavor to the passage. This is the author's story, not yours. And I don't agree that it reads better in the second sentence than the first, as the author wrote it. I think the author's writing was more naturally rendered.

To the "spoke/said" issue, I think "said" would be better here. the "spoke" stops readers to consider the unusual use.

sr, no reason except effect, I agree. If you use imperative you want the impact, which was neutered here by the tag - as Penn Lady found distracting.

As you know, imperatives don't have objects. It grates here and I'm not trying to change the author's story just moving a word to have greater impact.

 

[sr71plt]

As you know, imperatives don't have objects. It grates here and I'm not trying to change the author's story just moving a word to have greater impact.

Ah, no, I don't know of any such hard and fast rules. It sounds better to me the way the author has it. Putting it on the front of the next sentence disrupts the flow.

I think you're making it up as you go along. Source citation?

As is often the case with your observations, I think the author has done better than you are suggesting. And certainly that the author can choose his/her own voice for these matters.

 

[PennLady]

sr, no reason except effect, I agree. If you use imperative you want the impact, which was neutered here by the tag - as Penn Lady found distracting.

As you know, imperatives don't have objects. It grates here and I'm not trying to change the author's story just moving a word to have greater impact.

To clarify, I wasn't distracted, particularly. I was taught (by Sister John Rose, she of stern visage) that when you have a command, it is written as verb, comma, addressee. So --

"Relax, partner."
"Go to bed, kid." (I use that a lot in real life )
"Run, Jane!"

I've been trying to look this up but I'm not finding it, so either I'm wrong, or I'm searching the wrong things. However, I've never been called on this when writing.

Edit -- okay, I searched and found what I was looking for. As I suspected, it was pilot error on my part in searching. I was looking for stuff on imperatives, but I should have been looking for direct address. That's what I found it under at the Yahoo Style guide:

Setting off direct address
Use a comma to set off a name, a title, or another word or phrase when addressing someone.
Examples
Dear customer,
Friends, Romans, countrymen, lend me your ears.
Madam President, I move to adjourn.

So in the "Relax, partner." example, the partner is being directly addressed, and so there should be a comma.

I'd look in the CSM or AP Style guide but I don't have subscriptions there.

 

[sr71plt]

I've been trying to look this up but I'm not finding it, so either I'm wrong, or I'm searching the wrong things. However, I've never been called on this when writing.

That's because either the challenge to what you learned doesn't exist, or it's so arcane that nobody pays any attention to it anymore.

Saying imperatives don't have objects to claim that "Relax. Partner, there are . . ." reads better than "Relax, Partner. There are . . ." is just nonsense. I've never heard anything about a limitation between imperatives and objects to begin with (and don't particular care even if some has such a "rule" they want to push). But more important, in sounding out the phrase, I have no trouble at all knowing which way is smoother.

And overriding all of that, I think both are technically correct, and so it's the writer's choice. And the writer here made a choice.

The motto of editing is "first, do no harm." It's the author's work, not the editor's.

Your suggestion of the comma was correct. This is direct address. It has nothing to do with either imperatives or objects.

 

[PennLady]

Your suggestion of the comma was correct. This is direct address. It has nothing to do with either imperatives or objects.

Yes, I finally figured that out and edited my previous post, which it appears crossed with yours.

 

[Great_Brit]

... If you use imperative you want the impact, which was neutered here by the tag - as Penn Lady found distracting.

As you know, imperatives don't have objects. It grates here and I'm not trying to change the author's story just moving a word to have greater impact.

I would normally agree with you about the impact BUT this is dialogue, and so the author is simply faithfully recording the character's words. Speech is often ungrammatical, lacking verbs, lacking correct sentence structure, and so forth.

 

[palisa]

BUT this is dialogue, and so the author is simply faithfully recording the character's words. Speech is often ungrammatical, lacking verbs, lacking correct sentence structure, and so forth.

Of course you're correct. Written language and spoken language are often as different as two separate languages, as anybody who has struggled to learn to both read and speak another language can testify.

But unless it's done by a really, really expert writer, attempting to recreate the jumble you describe on a printed page will cause nothing but confusion. You don't want dialogue that is consistently elegant prose, but it's almost always better to tilt just a bit toward written patterns when you're writing dialogue, if for no other reason than that you don't have the non-verbal cues on a page or a monitor.

 

[sr71plt]

However, in this case, there was nothing wrong (other than the punctuation and extra spaces) in the construction the original author chose to use. So being ungrammatical in dialogue really isn't the issue. The author placed the "Partner" right where any author interested in a good flow of the phrasing would put it.

 

[AsylumSeeker]

Please

Why does every question have to become a clash of the titans? You scare away the newbies. I realize you all posess knowledge far greater than me when it comes to the written word. Not that I am asssumed to be any part of the convo, btw. I realize I'm not.

But I'm not blind, either. Please, men and women. I realize you all possess great knowledge and talents. Do we really need to show them here? Is this not the reason why PMs were born? Or are you so brilliant that you are socially dysfunstional to the point where you find yourselevs incapable of sharing PM messages? Or perhaps it is too distracting, too uncomfortable when one posseses such talent as you do?

Or maybe you have such a need to demonstrate your knwoledge so as to enhance your own self-image.

Please, keep your arguments among yourselves.

Geez!

 

[sr71plt]

Why does every question have to become a clash of the titans? You scare away the newbies. I realize you all posess knowledge far greater than me when it comes to the written word. Not that I am asssumed to be any part of the convo, btw. I realize I'm not.

But I'm not blind, either. Please, men and women. I realize you all possess great knowledge and talents. Do we really need to show them here? Is this not the reason why PMs were born? Or are you so brilliant that you are socially dysfunstional to the point where you find yourselevs incapable of sharing PM messages? Or perhaps it is too distracting, too uncomfortable when one posseses such talent as you do?

Or maybe you have such a need to demonstrate your knwoledge so as to enhance your own self-image.

Please, keep your arguments among yourselves.

Geez!

What's wrong with telling a new writer that something they've been told is wrong to write isn't wrong to write?

This wasn't a clash of titans; it was a clash between someone who is trained to editing and someone who has some really bizarre personal "rules" about writing.

Once again the falacy of the Internet strikes. No, every poster isn't really equal to every other poster in experience/ability to constructively answer a question on a given subject.

Someone seeking help has a right to hear the alternative responses--and then decide for themselves what to do.

 

[Great_Brit]

What's wrong with telling a new writer that something they've been told is wrong to write isn't wrong to write?

Nothing, provided the poster is right that it isn't wrong.

Once again the falacy of the Internet strikes. No, every poster isn't really equal to every other poster in experience/ability to constructively answer a question on a given subject.

The problem is that nobody can tell who is really qualified to say what they say, and who is just blowing bubbles. I claim to be from the UK, but I could be Chinese, Eskimo, or Hottentot for all you can tell (see attachment). Nothing posted on the internet has any way of being validated as true (see the recent case of the "Syrian lesbian" blogger).

Someone seeking help has a right to hear the alternative responses--and then decide for themselves what to do.

Yes, but the more different answers they get, the more confused they become.

PS For my enlightenment - has US English dropped one of the "l"s in what we spell as "fallacy"?

 

[sr71plt]

Nothing, provided the poster is right that it isn't wrong.

The problem is that nobody can tell who is really qualified to say what they say, and who is just blowing bubbles. I claim to be from the UK, but I could be Chinese, Eskimo, or Hottentot for all you can tell (see attachment). Nothing posted on the internet has any way of being validated as true (see the recent case of the "Syrian lesbian" blogger).

Yes, but the more different answers they get, the more confused they become.

PS For my enlightenment - has US English dropped one of the "l"s in what we spell as "fallacy"?

It's not hard over time to determine who knows their stuff here and who doesn't.

On editorial questions, some cite sources, and others don't even when challenged to do so. It's not so hard to decide which of those is more reliable.

"Fallacy" is spelled with two "l"s in the American system too. I misspelled it. Left on my own, I can't spell worth spit. Webster's is my most thumbed-through reference. Sometimes I don't check it often enough.

 

[AsylumSeeker]

What's wrong with telling a new writer that something they've been told is wrong to write isn't wrong to write?

This wasn't a clash of titans; it was a clash between someone who is trained to editing and someone who has some really bizarre personal "rules" about writing.

Once again the falacy of the Internet strikes. No, every poster isn't really equal to every other poster in experience/ability to constructively answer a question on a given subject.

Someone seeking help has a right to hear the alternative responses--and then decide for themselves what to do.

My statement wasn't aimed at anyone in particular. But there is a new hopeful editor who was a bit intimidated in the last few days whom I shared a few PM's with. I'm not saying I'm some great person, we all know I've had tirades in the past and which I regret. But my frame of mind has improved.

But to newbies who visit here seeing the clash of titans is intimidating, this is all I am saying. You all have an incredible amount of exprience that I am envious of, I wish I knew all that you people do. But I don't. I just do what I do. And when I see someone in need of help then I step in, and may very well end up with a black eye in the process. But at least I know I tried.

This is all I was intending to convey.

 

[AsylumSeeker]

Also, it should be "Relax, partner."

Comma after relax. When you're giving a command, you put a comma before the person's name or title. Or, if you prefer, after the command verb. I'm sure there's a better way to explain this, so if that's not clear, let me know.

I may be incorrect, as so many times I am, but I have been taught that a comma represents a pause. Not trying to argue (note the lack of a comma here) but I would like to address this and learn from this so I might be a better editor. Is there a hard-and-fast rule that a comma MUST be there? What if the words were spoken with no pause between them?

Curious.

 

[sr71plt]

I may be incorrect, as so many times I am, but I have been taught that a comma represents a pause. Not trying to argue (note the lack of a comma here) but I would like to address this and learn from this so I might be a better editor. Is there a hard-and-fast rule that a comma MUST be there? What if the words were spoken with no pause between them?

Curious.

Yes. It's direct address. Always set off. Doesn't really have anything to do with a pause. (Chicago Manual of Style, 6.38)

 

[sr71plt]

My statement wasn't aimed at anyone in particular. But there is a new hopeful editor who was a bit intimidated in the last few days whom I shared a few PM's with. I'm not saying I'm some great person, we all know I've had tirades in the past and which I regret. But my frame of mind has improved.

But to newbies who visit here seeing the clash of titans is intimidating, this is all I am saying. You all have an incredible amount of exprience that I am envious of, I wish I knew all that you people do. But I don't. I just do what I do. And when I see someone in need of help then I step in, and may very well end up with a black eye in the process. But at least I know I tried.

This is all I was intending to convey.

Again, why are you addressing me? This is Elfin's tirade, not mine.

 

[AsylumSeeker]

Again, why are you addressing me? This is Elfin's tirade, not mine.

SR, I was not intending to address you directly. I apologize. I just happened to "QUOTE" you with no inference whatsoever. Thank you for educating me that one cannot simply "click and shoot" so as to speak without regard.

Back to the previous, so I can learn from it, a comma is "required"?