Quotation marks around thoughts

[herecomestherain]

Friends I've consulted two text books, read some of the excellent advice on Lit, including "How to make characters talk" by the wonderful Whispersecret, but am still having trouble with a particular problem. I thought I'd recently read something from Lit on this but can't track it down.

Specifically; I'm trying to write my 1st story(fiction), it's got lots of dialogue, the female character does a bit of talking out loud to herself, talks to herself in her head, no she's not mad...
examples might make it easier to explain.

eg 1.Kate deliberately put aside her desires for the moment and tried to focus on being cool and professional. "Easier said than done," she thought to herself.

eg 2. "Oh boy," she thought, "this guy could be a fruitcake." Nevertheless she was intrigued to hear his request.

Do I put quotation marks around things she says to herself? Only when she says them out loud or when she thinks them too?

I thought I had the hang of this writing thing but am suffering some kind of anxiety induced blindness when it comes to this problem. Aggghhh. Could be the drugs I'm taking to mask the symptoms of a crappy cold!

Any help would be greatly appreciated. I'll also be on the lookout for an editor in the near future. Thanks.

 

[snooper]

... Do I put quotation marks around things she says to herself? Only when she says them out loud or when she thinks them too? ...

What I do is use double inverted commas for direct speech, and single ones for thoughts, e.g.
'No chance,' he thought. Aloud he said, "Perhaps we could arrange something."

Also a minor point:

... "Easier said than done," she thought to herself...

If you can answer the question, to whom else could she be thinking, then the "to herself" is necessary, otherwise kill it.

... I'll also be on the lookout for an editor in the near future

Click here and pick the one, or ones, which best suit your needs. They are supposed to reply in 72 hours.

 

[herecomestherain]

Thanks for tips and advice, I appreciate it very much. Of course who else could she "be thinking to?" Sorry about that, hideously obvious in hindsight! Thanks again

 

[Weird Harold]

eg 1.Kate deliberately put aside her desires for the moment and tried to focus on being cool and professional. "Easier said than done," she thought to herself.

eg 2. "Oh boy," she thought, "this guy could be a fruitcake." Nevertheless she was intrigued to hear his request.

Do I put quotation marks around things she says to herself? Only when she says them out loud or when she thinks them too?

There is conflicting information on how to punctuate internal dialogue, but I think the conflict is primarily due to the different requirements of various publishing venues.

Your options are:

1: Put literal thoughts in Italics. This is the "old school" preferred method. (And my personal preference when the format allows Italics.)

Easier said than done, she thought.

Oh boy, she thought, this guy could be a fruitcake. Nevertheless she was intrigued to hear his request.

2: Don't punctuate thoughts at all. This is the "modern method," but it makes distinguishing literal thoughts from narrative descripton difficult at times; as your second exmple illustrates.

Easier said than done, she thought.

Oh boy, she thought, this guy could be a fruitcake. Nevertheless she was intrigued to hear his request.

3: Punctuate thoughts with single quotes and spoken dialogue with double quotes. This is the "pragmatic approach," for use when Italics is not available -- as in plain text files.

'Easier said than done,' she thought.

'Oh boy,' she thought, 'this guy could be a fruitcake.' Nevertheless she was intrigued to hear his request.

4: Where there is the possibility of Telepathy, telepathic exchanges are often puctuated with asterisks or colons in place of double quotation marks, but internal dialogue is still punctuated according to one of the three options above.


The main consideration is that you remain consistent in how you punctuate internal dialogue so your reader can recognise it, whichever method your choose to use.

 

[herecomestherain]

Thanks so much for the information, it's exactly what I need to finish my story and extremely helpful. I'm printing this off and taping it to my desk right now. As an aside are there any official warnings on Lit about the addictive nature of writing? Or is it just my obsessive nature...I'm hooked!

 

[snooper]

Re: Re: Quotation marks around thoughts

... 1: Put literal thoughts in Italics. This is the "old school" preferred method. (And my personal preference when the format allows Italics.) ...

For Internet use this is, unfortunately, not possible. After all everyone avoids WP macro-viruses by shipping all text via .txt format, don't they? I do, and Compusec is my "day job".

Remember:

Paranoia is the mother of safety.

 

[Alex De Kok]

Re: Re: Re: Quotation marks around thoughts

For Internet use this is, unfortunately, not possible. After all everyone avoids WP macro-viruses by shipping all text via .txt format, don't they? I do, and Compusec is my "day job".

Remember:

Paranoia is the mother of safety.

If you want to use italics in your story, and if you submit by cutting and pasting from a text file via your member's page, then have a look at my 'How-To' here. This will tell you how to include bold or italic in your story.

Alex

 

[Weird Harold]

Re: Re: Re: Quotation marks around thoughts

For Internet use this is, unfortunately, not possible.

This forum allows for the use of Italics, bold, underlining and multiple fonts and font sizes.

Have I gotten lost an am not on the internet anymore?

 

[snooper]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Quotation marks around thoughts

... Have I gotten lost an am not on the internet anymore?[/i]

Fear not, you are not lost. Simply that if I wished to download your remarks to unprotected permanent memory areas on my computer, after virus checking I would copy it first into Notepad and then store the .txt. This applies to all text formats without exception. Graphics files are only subjected to good virus checking. Thus remaining secure implies that I lose most of the formatting of all the stories, etc. which I choose to read off-line.

I assume most people are not so foolish as to take files from untrusted sources and store them direct.

Paranoia is the mother of safety.

 

[Weird Harold]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Quotation marks around thoughts

... after virus checking I would copy it first into Notepad and then store the .txt. ... Thus remaining secure implies that I lose most of the formatting of all the stories, etc. which I choose to read off-line.
...
Paranoia is the mother of safety.

There's a difference between your choosing to remove formatting elements by converting to a format that doesn't support them and those formating elements not being available.

By the time I'm ready to C&P a story I want to save, any malicious scripts and macros have either been stopped by my real-time virus check or infected my sytem, so I feel confident in preserving the formatting and Italics by pasting into MS Word or WordPad.

Paranoia may be the mother of safety, but it also destroys some of the beauty of a well formatted work in the process.

 

[hiddenself]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Quotation marks around thoughts

Paranoia may be the mother of safety, but it also destroys some of the beauty of a well formatted work in the process.

Amen!
Total security implies abstinence. And what good is that in life?

 

[dr_mabeuse]

Italics for thoughts. I think that's the generally accepted convention, though I suppose any of Harold's methods would work in a pinch.

I don't know about all this file formatting. I've been uploading my stories as MSWord files since Ive been here and never had any trouble with italics. Line breaks and indents, yes, but not italics. Italics in Word show up as italics in Lit.

---dr.M.

 

[snooper]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Quotation marks around thoughts

Amen!
Total security implies abstinence. And what good is that in life?

I agree. The only secure computer is one that has never been powered up, and never will be.

I just set a balance between security and utility, like everyone else. And like everyone else, where I set it is too far over for some other people's comfort. So I set it where I want to set it and ignore the critics.

 

[HawaiiBill]

Thoughts

The Chicago Manual of Style is widely considered the final authority on proper punctuation and other editorial issues. In this case, nearly everyone in the thread wins. The Manual says in the section on Interior Discourse:
--------------------------------------------
Thought, imagined dialogue, and other interior discourse, presented in more or less conventional syntax, is often, but not always, enclosed in quotation marks. Alternatives to enclosure in quotation marks include the use of italics or plain roman type. The choice -- in fiction especially but in other writing as well -- should be the author's, but consistency ought to be observed within a single work.

"I don't care if we have offended Morgenstern," thought Vera. "Besides," she told herself, "they're all fools!"

"I should have said, 'What business is it of yours!'" thought Tom.

I suppose he's telling her right now, "Morgenstern is not to be trusted."

Francine blushed and turned away. I could die! she told herself.

Edgar looked at her in despair and thought, Now what have I done?
-------------------------------------------------
That should sooth any ruffled feathers in the room. Note "she told herself" appears twice in this brief list of examples from the Manual. In another place the issue was raised about "thinking to herself" or "she thought to herself" as being inappropriate. The issue was, to whom else would the thought have been addressed. I side here, as I did in that discussion, with the use of thinking to oneself as reasonable syntax.

 

[hiddenself]

Re: Thoughts

Note "she told herself" appears twice in this brief list of examples from the Manual. In another place the issue was raised about "thinking to herself" or "she thought to herself" as being inappropriate. The issue was, to whom else would the thought have been addressed. I side here, as I did in that discussion, with the use of thinking to oneself as reasonable syntax.

Oh, that's rich!
I count 3 "he/she thought" (no object) and 2 "she told herself" -- see, different verbs, different usage?
How is the use of the verb to tell justify similar use of the different verb to think? Is there any particular reason why you now add illogic on top of incorrect syntax -- besides pure stubbornness that is?

 

[herecomestherain]

Thanks HawaiiBill and all other folks for the advice so far. I think I will attempt the single quotation marks around "Interior Discourse" and see how it goes, I'm aiming for consistency and clarity, wish me luck. As an aside...hope I haven't stirred up a hornets nest in here? Please be gentle with each other...

I'm a little hesitant to go near the "she thought to herself" comments...but I'll be brave...just sometimes, it kinda, sorta sounds okay if you know what I mean?

 

[HawaiiBill]

Enough of hiddenself

Oh, that's rich!
I count 3 "he/she thought" (no object) and 2 "she told herself" -- see, different verbs, different usage?
How is the use of the verb to tell justify similar use of the different verb to think? Is there any particular reason why you now add illogic on top of incorrect syntax -- besides pure stubbornness that is?

hiddenself,

I'm tired of the hostility in your messages. That's likely a generally held feeling.

If you do not know the difference between a discussion of opinions and an all-out assault on participants, go elsewhere.

 

[snooper]

Re: Enough of hiddenself

I'm tired of the hostility in your messages...

I, too, deprecate ad hominem arguments, That is why I don't patronise the General Board. However hiddenself does have a valid point here, in that there were two different verbs used and their usage is not analogous.

...That's likely a generally held feeling...

Another ad hominem argument, from you this time. Yes, HawaiiBill, "All sensible people agree with me," is a commonly held fallacy.

Meanwhile, may I say that this conversation is interesting, and that I don't think anybody has lost their grip.

 

[hiddenself]

Dear HB

hiddenself,

I'm tired of the hostility in your messages. That's likely a generally held feeling.

If you do not know the difference between a discussion of opinions and an all-out assault on participants, go elsewhere.

Whether there is a God or not is a matter of opinion.
Whether red light means stop and green light means go is not, however. It is a matter of general convention and standard rules.
The isssue under discussion ("thinking to myself") falls closer to the latter.

When debating in good faith, you (and everyone else for that matter) are responsible to use arguments that do not defy acceptable logic and generally understood conventions. If you were to argue that red light means go and green light means stop, that can certainly be your "opinion" but I'd be justified to tell you that that's BS.

On the matter under discussion, there are certain syntax conventions (yes, like it or not, there is a right and wrong sometimes in language) that you blatantly disregard when proffering your "opinion." In addition, you use false logic to support that "opinion." Now, you tell me why should I take this "opinion" seriously?

I regret that I cannot accommodate your suggestion. This is a public forum (= "exposed to general view: open" and "accessible to or shared by all members of the community") after all. I might suggest one of the following instead:
1. Keep posting anything you want and ignore my responses that bother you.
2. Adjust your postings to avoid authoritative-sounding nonsense and you will not get responses that bother you (at least not from me).
3. Avoid posting altogether.

(added on edit)
4. Appeal to KM who is the moderator and she will have the final word.

Best,
HS

 

[InsatiableMe]

"She thought to herself."

Thanks for tips and advice, I appreciate it very much. Of course who else could she "be thinking to?" Sorry about that, hideously obvious in hindsight! Thanks again

Don't feel bad about using "she thought to herself". Often times I have used it in story writing when I am making the point that she was thinking "to herself" instead of "talking out loud". After all, even if you talk to yourself (unless you're crazy), you are still involved in a certain thought process.

 

[herecomestherain]

Thanks for the comment Insatiableme, I've gone with the single quotation mark method and have had feedback that it's working okay. As I said, I'm aiming for clarity, so if I thought adding "she thought to herself" added clarity I'd probably do it. It is something to be aware of.

 

[snooper]

Whether there is a God or not is a matter of opinion.

No. That is a matter of fact; we just can't determine it either way. There are many facts which are non-determinable with our present state of knowledge.
Personally, I don't think there is a God and I don't think there is intelligent life anywhere else in the universe. If I discover after I die that the first opinion is wrong, I'll be duly contrite. If someone proves there is intelligent life in the universe I'll be surprised, but not contrite.

Thanks for the comment Insatiableme, I've gone with the single quotation mark method and have had feedback that it's working okay. As I said, I'm aiming for clarity, so if I thought adding "she thought to herself" added clarity I'd probably do it. It is something to be aware of.

Don't get me wrong. If it is done deliberately, that's fine. It is the careless use of clichés to which I object.

 

[herecomestherain]

The much maligned cliche...

Call me a glutton for punishment, unable to let sleeping dogs lie, willing to take up the gauntlet, champing at the bit, but I do believe that the issue of cliche use may be one that is dead but won't lie down. A veritable hot potato! The raising of this vexed question may of course be a blessing in disguise. A reason to look on the bright side? To accentuate the positive?

The acid test in my belief is, when clarity is at stake, one must choose the lesser of two evils. It is surely the unkindest cut of all to render the cliche out bounds to the writer? At the end of the day, when all is said and done,let us not throw out the baby with the bath water.

Any writer worth his salt would say publish and be damned. Come what may, never be careless with a cliche!

On that note, I'm off to slip into something more comfortable, get my beauty rest, for tomorrow is another day.

 

[InsatiableMe]

Thanks for the comment Insatiableme, I've gone with the single quotation mark method and have had feedback that it's working okay. As I said, I'm aiming for clarity, so if I thought adding "she thought to herself" added clarity I'd probably do it. It is something to be aware of.

I wasn't talking about the quotation marks, I was talking about the phrase.

If I want to show a character's "inner voice" speaking I would use italics, like: You're crazy! You've worked hard for this job. You know you'll get it!

And if it's written in the narrative, I would write: No, she thought to herself. You'll get the job because you've earned it.