Questions (US English)

[NotWise]

I consulted grammarly on the first two questions and didn't get a pat answer. If I quote a word at the end of a sentence, as in:

I don't agree with what some people call "normal."

Does the period go within the quotes (as written) or outside?

Similarly, if I quote a word in dialog:

"You know, I don't agree with what you want to call 'normal.'"

Does the period go within the single quotes (as written) or outside?

An unrelated question:

If the sentence, "There are a dozen ways to get what you want," appears in dialogue, then I want to replace "There are" with a contraction. It feels more natural to me. "There're" is a weird contraction. I don't think I'd ever say it. "There's" is a contraction of "There is" which is not what I'm contracting, but "There's" is probably what I'd actually say. What would you do?

 

[SimonDoom]

Regarding periods and quotation marks, the general rule is that the period goes inside the quotation marks, and this is true as well when you have double quotation marks. Both of the examples you gave are correct. There's a discussion of in the Chicago Manual of Style at 6:9 - 6:11, and it says to do it the way you did.

On the other issue, I think it depends on whether the usage is in a snippet of dialogue or not. If it's in dialogue, then go ahead and use "there's" if it seems more correct to you or if it fits your character better.

If you are from the western US, in particular, which I think you are, and your character is from there, then I'd definitely use "there's" in dialogue. I think that's the way someone from the West would talk.

But if it's in narrative, not dialogue, then you probably should avoid the contraction. "There's" is definitely NOT the correct contraction of "there are" because it converts a plural to a singular. That's bad grammar. CMOS sec. 5.105 recommends against using "there're", since it looks and sounds weird, so you're better off just writing "there are."

 

[Haulover]

I consulted grammarly on the first two questions and didn't get a pat answer. If I quote a word at the end of a sentence, as in:

I don't agree with what some people call "normal."

Does the period go within the quotes (as written) or outside?

Similarly, if I quote a word in dialog:

"You know, I don't agree with what you want to call 'normal.'"

Does the period go within the single quotes (as written) or outside?

Scenario 1 : Outside the quotes.

Scenario 2 - Inside the quotes.

In general :
- If the whole sentence is inside the quotes, then the period that ends the sentence goes inside the quotes.
- If the text in quotes is only part of the sentence, then the period that ends the sentence goes outside the quotes.

The same rule applies to parentheses.

 

[SimonDoom]

Scenario 1 : Outside the quotes.

Scenario 2 - Inside the quotes.

In general :
- If the whole sentence is inside the quotes, then the period that ends the sentence goes inside the quotes.
- If the text in quotes is only part of the sentence, then the period that ends the sentence goes outside the quotes.

The same rule applies to parentheses.

This isn't the way it's supposed to be done per CMOS, the MLA Handbook, Strunk & White, or the AP Style Guide. All of them say that the period goes inside the quotation mark or quotation marks. The British convention is different, but this is the American convention. This is the view endorsed by Grammarly: https://www.grammarly.com/blog/quotation-marks/

 

[NotWise]

This isn't the way it's supposed to be done per CMOS, the MLA Handbook, Strunk & White, or the AP Style Guide. All of them say that the period goes inside the quotation mark or quotation marks. The British convention is different, but this is the American convention. This is the view endorsed by Grammarly: https://www.grammarly.com/blog/quotation-marks/

The Grammarly article is what I read before posing the question. Virtually everything in the article is about direct quotes enclosed in quotation marks, and I have no beef with its guidance.

The part of the article that's relevant to my question on punctuation is the section "Other uses of quotation marks: titles of short works, words as words, scare quotes." That sections says nothing about where to place punctuation in the case of words as words or scare quotes.

My examples aren't great, but I think the word "normal" in both cases qualify as a word as a word, but maybe they're a scare quote. In either case, I'm using the quotation mark to emphasize the word, and the punctuation mark isn't part of the word. It makes sense to me to place the punctuation outside the quotation marks. That also avoids having the closing single quote and double quote adjacent in the written dialogue. I think having them together obscures the sentence.

 

[PennameWombat]

Regarding periods and quotation marks, the general rule is that the period goes inside the quotation marks, and this is true as well when you have double quotation marks. Both of the examples you gave are correct. There's a discussion of in the Chicago Manual of Style at 6:9 - 6:11, and it says to do it the way you did.

On the other issue, I think it depends on whether the usage is in a snippet of dialogue or not. If it's in dialogue, then go ahead and use "there's" if it seems more correct to you or if it fits your character better.

If you are from the western US, in particular, which I think you are, and your character is from there, then I'd definitely use "there's" in dialogue. I think that's the way someone from the West would talk.

But if it's in narrative, not dialogue, then you probably should avoid the contraction. "There's" is definitely NOT the correct contraction of "there are" because it converts a plural to a singular. That's bad grammar. CMOS sec. 5.105 recommends against using "there're", since it looks and sounds weird, so you're better off just writing "there are."

I grew up in the western US. Every last one of us would've used "There's" in that sentence. That's only the least of the grammar sins we committed daily. I agree with the distinction between narrative and dialogue. But if it's dialogue, it's "there's."

Well, possibly Mrs. Stonehocker, the only teacher at my high school who understand grammar, wouldn't have used it. But she liked to beat her head (metaphorically) against rocks (us students.)

And, since most of us growing up didn't know what a quote mark was, we wouldn't have decided about the period inside or outside of it. But when I started writing more than once I encountered it and was directed the period be inside the double quote if the word ended the sentence. Then, I met Brits and Aussies who yelled at me about it. One of those location differences. Although I'm now in Australia I stick with the US custom.

 

[SimonDoom]

The Grammarly article is what I read before posing the question. Virtually everything in the article is about direct quotes enclosed in quotation marks, and I have no beef with its guidance.

The part of the article that's relevant to my question on punctuation is the section "Other uses of quotation marks: titles of short works, words as words, scare quotes." That sections says nothing about where to place punctuation in the case of words as words or scare quotes.

My examples aren't great, but I think the word "normal" in both cases qualify as a word as a word, but maybe they're a scare quote. In either case, I'm using the quotation mark to emphasize the word, and the punctuation mark isn't part of the word. It makes sense to me to place the punctuation outside the quotation marks. That also avoids having the closing single quote and double quote adjacent in the written dialogue. I think having them together obscures the sentence.

Yours is the logical view about quotation marks. But I don't think it's preferred US style. I did a little looking around and the examples I could find seemed to support putting the period inside. So the correct style would be:

He said, "I read 'The Great Gatsby.'"

Rather than

He said, "I read 'The Great Gatsby'."

I'm not 100% on this, but I'm pretty sure this is AP, MLA, and CMOS style.

 

[NotWise]

Yours is the logical view about quotation marks. But I don't think it's preferred US style. I did a little looking around and the examples I could find seemed to support putting the period inside. So the correct style would be:

He said, "I read 'The Great Gatsby.'"

Rather than

He said, "I read 'The Great Gatsby'."

I'm not 100% on this, but I'm pretty sure this is AP, MLA, and CMOS style.

Simon, thanks for the extra effort.

 

[Rustyoznail]

Russ scratched his head, "I'm not an expert in either English or US grammar, but I think it comes down to that vague notion of 'readability'."

 

[BelleCanzuto]

Yours is the logical view about quotation marks. But I don't think it's preferred US style. I did a little looking around and the examples I could find seemed to support putting the period inside. So the correct style would be:

He said, "I read 'The Great Gatsby.'"

Rather than

He said, "I read 'The Great Gatsby'."

I'm not 100% on this, but I'm pretty sure this is AP, MLA, and CMOS style.

It might be technically incorrect, but I'm with Russ. I'll take your second example over your first.

 

[NotWise]

If you are from the western US, in particular, which I think you are, and your character is from there, then I'd definitely use "there's" in dialogue. I think that's the way someone from the West would talk.

But if it's in narrative, not dialogue, then you probably should avoid the contraction. "There's" is definitely NOT the correct contraction of "there are" because it converts a plural to a singular. That's bad grammar. CMOS sec. 5.105 recommends against using "there're", since it looks and sounds weird, so you're better off just writing "there are."

On the east coast, would you just not contract "there are?"

You're right, I am a dyed-in-the-wool westerner. I've spent time in the south and midwest, and I think they'd also use "there's" as the common contraction for "there are."

 

[LWulf]

I happen to have an older version of MLA third edition (2006). It agrees with Simon Doom, but there are exceptions. Interested?

 

[NotWise]

I happen to have an older version of MLA third edition (2006). It agrees with Simon Doom, but there are exceptions. Interested?

Sure.

 

[LWulf]

MLA Style Manual Third Edition (2008)

3.9.7 Punctuation With Quotations
...
Use double quotation marks around quotations incorporated into the
text, single quotation marks around quotations within those quotations.

In "Memories of West Street and Lepke," Robert Lowell, a
conscientious objector (or "C.O"), recounts meeting a Jehovah's
Witness in prison: " 'Are you a C.O?' I asked the fellow jailbird. / 'No.' he
answered, 'I'm a J.W.' "​

(Page 133)
...

If a quotation ends with both single and double quotation marks, the
comma or period precedes both.

"The poem alludes to Steven's 'Sunday Morning,' " notes Miller.​

All other punctuation marks - such as semicolons, colons, question
marks, and exclamation points - go outside a closing quotation mark,
except when they are part of the quoted material.

ORIGINAL
I believe taxation without representation is tyranny!

QUOTATIONS
Did he attack "taxation without representation"?
What dramatic events followed his attack on "taxation without
representation"!​

but

He declared, "I believe taxation without representation is tyranny!"
​

(Page 144)

17 U.S.C. § 107

 

[ElectricBlue]

Russ scratched his head, "I'm not an expert in either English or US grammar, but I think it comes down to that vague notion of 'readability'."

I futz with this from time to time where I've written myself into such a sentence, and have landed with Simon on the "vague notion of 'readability,'" because for my eye it scans better. Not because I'm an adherent to one "correct" grammar over another, but because it pleases my eye. Which is, I know, a poor justification for grammatical choice - but hey, it's hardly a hanging offence .

 

[SimonDoom]

On the east coast, would you just not contract "there are?"

You're right, I am a dyed-in-the-wool westerner. I've spent time in the south and midwest, and I think they'd also use "there's" as the common contraction for "there are."

Not sure about the East. Bostonians and New Yorkers probably would say "theh's" and write it "there's."

In my own speech I'd probably slur "there" and "are" so you couldn't tell if I was saying "there" and "are separately or as a contraction.

E.g. "There're two ways to do that."

It would sound like "there" or "their." Westerners (broadly speaking) tend to slur and flatten things. I say "when" and "win" the same way and "pen" and "pin" the same way.

 

[NotWise]

3.9.7 Punctuation With Quotations
...
Use double quotation marks around quotations incorporated into the
text, single quotation marks around quotations within those quotations.

In "Memories of West Street and Lepke," Robert Lowell, a
conscientious objector (or "C.O"), recounts meeting a Jehovah's
Witness in prison: " 'Are you a C.O?' I asked the fellow jailbird. / 'No.' he
answered, 'I'm a J.W.' "​

(Page 133)
...

If a quotation ends with both single and double quotation marks, the
comma or period precedes both.

"The poem alludes to Steven's 'Sunday Morning,' " notes Miller.​

All other punctuation marks - such as semicolons, colons, question
marks, and exclamation points - go outside a closing quotation mark,
except when they are part of the quoted material.

ORIGINAL
I believe taxation without representation is tyranny!

QUOTATIONS
Did he attack "taxation without representation"?
What dramatic events followed his attack on "taxation without
representation"!​

but

He declared, "I believe taxation without representation is tyranny!"
​

(Page 144)

17 U.S.C. § 107

Thanks for that.

 

[NotWise]

In my own speech I'd probably slur "there" and "are" so you couldn't tell if I was saying "there" and "are separately or as a contraction.

E.g. "There're two ways to do that."

That seems like something to remember for Talk Like a Pirate Day.