Question on putting dialogue first

[8letters]

My impression is that when I read novels, I see the dialogue first and any action afterwards. For example:

"Fred, stand back," I said as I pointed the gun at him.

Occasionally, I need to have the action first in order for the dialogue to make sense. For example:

When the waiter tried to hand me a menu, I said, "No thanks. We'll need only one."

Is that okay? Should I re-write some how? Perhaps:

"No thanks," I said as the waiter tried to hand me a menu. "We'll need only one."

 

[Blind_Justice]

That's entirely a matter of taste (unless the Chicago Manual of Style has something on that). As long as you keep punctuation intact, it does not matter where you put the action. Just make sure it's obvious when the speaker changes.

 

[lovecraft68]

My impression is that when I read novels, I see the dialogue first and any action afterwards. For example:


Occasionally, I need to have the action first in order for the dialogue to make sense. For example:


Is that okay? Should I re-write some how? Perhaps:

I would do it the second way with the action in the middle.

But that I think is a matter of my taste, I don't think there is a wrong way. Maybe in the pro market there might be, but on lit I doubt anyone really harps on things like that.

 

[PennLady]

Either way is fine. As LC says, there's no real wrong way to do it. I'd say do whatever makes it clearest to the reader what is going on. I haven't done a count in my own work but I'm sure I have a mix of talk-then-action and action-then-talk.

 

[Handley_Page]

My impression is that when I read novels, I see the dialogue first and any action afterwards. For example:

Occasionally, I need to have the action first in order for the dialogue to make sense. For example:

Is that okay? Should I re-write some how? Perhaps:

1] Quote:
"Fred, stand back," I said as I pointed the gun at him.

2] Quote:
When the waiter tried to hand me a menu, I said, "No thanks. We'll need only one."

3] Quote:
"No thanks," I said as the waiter tried to hand me a menu. "We'll need only one."

As before mentioned, I do not see much difference; certainly between 1 & 2.
However, I think 3] will depend upon how you see the story-teller (narrator).
I think it separates the action rather nicely.

 

[TxRad]

I do it every which way. Mixing it up seems to work best, if you keep everyone and everything clear.

 

[Zeb_Carter]

That's entirely a matter of taste (unless the Chicago Manual of Style has something on that). As long as you keep punctuation intact, it does not matter where you put the action. Just make sure it's obvious when the speaker changes.

Hey BJ good to see you around.

 

[GoldenCojones]

The secret

I do it every which way. Mixing it up seems to work best, if you keep everyone and everything clear.

I think that is one of the secrets to good writing. Mix it up so that the reader doesn't get bored. Just my opinion, but structuring sentences the same throughout a story would, for me, get to be hard to read.

 

[elfin_odalisque]

I accept all versions are great and mixing it up is a good idea. However , I think I'm allergic to dialogue tags. Wherever possible, stamp on the little critturs. In the 3 OP examples, isn't it possible to rewrite without tags?

1. I pointed the gun at him. "Fred, stand back!"

2. The waiter tried to offer me a menu. "No thanks, we'll need only the one."

3. "No thanks, we only need one." The waiter took the proffered menus away.

Sure, same sex stories need more care to differentiate between the 'he's' and the 'she's'

We've all had 'show don' t tell' engrained into us so surely speech tags should be avoided wherever possible?

 

[bbtp41]

I think I'm allergic to dialogue tags. Wherever possible, stamp on the little critturs. In the 3 OP examples, isn't it possible to rewrite without tags?

1. I pointed the gun at him. "Fred, stand back!"

2. The waiter tried to offer me a menu. "No thanks, we'll need only the one."

3. "No thanks, we only need one." The waiter took the proffered menus away.

As mentioned above, mix it up for variety. Too much of the same is too much. "And you can quote me on that," he chanted his personal mantra of certainty.

 

[elfin_odalisque]

Not entirely sure of what you are saying.

 

[PennLady]

I accept all versions are great and mixing it up is a good idea. However , I think I'm allergic to dialogue tags. Wherever possible, stamp on the little critturs. In the 3 OP examples, isn't it possible to rewrite without tags?

It's possible but not necessary. I think like so many other things (adverbs!) they key is moderation. Using a dialogue tag isn't terrible. In fact, if I saw a story without any, I'd probably get as annoyed as I would with stories that constantly have them (and I'm guilty of that myself in my early stuff). It doesn't have to be all or nothing with any particular writing tool.

 

[8letters]

I think that is one of the secrets to good writing. Mix it up so that the reader doesn't get bored. Just my opinion, but structuring sentences the same throughout a story would, for me, get to be hard to read.

Actually, I think just the opposite. When I am reading, I'm processing the story as fast as possible. I think I read more quickly when the story is presented consistently. If I know that paragraphs that have dialogue always start with a double quote and paragraphs that don't have dialogue don't, I think it helps me process the story more quickly.

I accept all versions are great and mixing it up is a good idea. However , I think I'm allergic to dialogue tags. Wherever possible, stamp on the little critturs. In the 3 OP examples, isn't it possible to rewrite without tags?

1. I pointed the gun at him. "Fred, stand back!"

2. The waiter tried to offer me a menu. "No thanks, we'll need only the one."

3. "No thanks, we only need one." The waiter took the proffered menus away.

Sure, same sex stories need more care to differentiate between the 'he's' and the 'she's'

We've all had 'show don' t tell' engrained into us so surely speech tags should be avoided wherever possible?

I read somewhere that readers don't notice speech tags in stories. I would think the goal would be to make the story as easy to read as possible and writing to avoid speech tags would slow the reader because they have to think more to figure out who is speaking.

 

[PennLady]

Actually, I think just the opposite. When I am reading, I'm processing the story as fast as possible. I think I read more quickly when the story is presented consistently. If I know that paragraphs that have dialogue always start with a double quote and paragraphs that don't have dialogue don't, I think it helps me process the story more quickly.

I'm not sure you're thinking of "consistently" in the right way here. I think GC is right -- if you structure all of your sentences in the same way, the reader will get bored. "He did this. She did that. He said. She said." Varying your sentence structure is not inconsistent, it is something that helps make a story more interesting and readable.

Double quotes for dialogue aren't a matter of consistency, it's a matter of proper punctuation. We're all pretty much trained to recognize that, which yes, helps us process whatever we're reading. It doesn't mean you can't change things up, but if you do, you'll probably have a rocky start with a lot of readers.

I read somewhere that readers don't notice speech tags in stories. I would think the goal would be to make the story as easy to read as possible and writing to avoid speech tags would slow the reader because they have to think more to figure out who is speaking.

Again with speech tags, you as a writer need to figure out when they're necessary, but you also need to trust yourself to set up a scene and then trust the reader to know what's going on. Readers can make logical jumps. If you set up something like:

"Let's go," said John. (1)
"One minute," Kathy replied. (2)
"We're running late!" (3)
"You worry too much." (4)
"No, I don't." (5)
"Let's just go." (6)

A reader will know that John says lines three and five, while Kathy says four and six. The dialogue tags establish the pattern, and so the reader can move along with the next lines without needing to figure anything out. Personally, if there was more dialogue in that bit, I'd end up putting something in to help the reader keep track, but for short exchanges, you can go without tags for a couple of lines.

 

[8letters]

I'm not sure you're thinking of "consistently" in the right way here. I think GC is right -- if you structure all of your sentences in the same way, the reader will get bored. "He did this. She did that. He said. She said." Varying your sentence structure is not inconsistent, it is something that helps make a story more interesting and readable.

Double quotes for dialogue aren't a matter of consistency, it's a matter of proper punctuation. We're all pretty much trained to recognize that, which yes, helps us process whatever we're reading. It doesn't mean you can't change things up, but if you do, you'll probably have a rocky start with a lot of readers.

Let me show you the section that has the paragraph I mentioned in the OP. Rebecca is the narrator's girlfriend, Caitlin is his sister and Jacob is her boyfriend. They are on a cruise ship.

There weren’t many people at the pool when I got there, but I recognized a few people from yesterday. I struck up a conversation with them and the time went decently until Rebecca, Caitlin and Jacob showed up.

“How 'bout some miniature golf?” asked Rebecca.

“Sounds like fun.”

Rebecca had brought a shirt for me to throw on. I would have had fun at miniature golf if Jacob hadn’t spent the whole time giving me a blow-by-blow replay of his blackjack playing.

We spent most of the day hanging out by the pool. After lunch, we went to an ice carving demonstration that was impressive. After that, I played basketball for an hour. I tried to get Jacob to go with me as I would have loved to swat a ball down his throat, but he declined. Around three, we all went back to our cabins for naps. I hoped Rebecca would take off her panties before getting into bed, but no luck.

After our naps, we dressed up “formally”. Jacob and I wore collared shirt and slacks while the girls wore black cocktail dresses. We found a club playing live jazz and we listened to that until it was time for us to eat dinner in the main dining room.

"No thanks," I said as the waiter tried to hand me a menu. "We'll need only one."

Rebecca being so small, she didn’t eat very much at restaurants. What we did was order one dinner and then alternate bites until she was full, then I finished the meal. Eating that way felt so intimate to me.

We scanned Rebecca’s menu and discussed possible choices. I wanted meat. I had learned to eat vegetarian dinners with Rebecca but I wasn’t in the mood for one tonight. We settled on baby back ribs. The joint picking of a meal with Rebecca always gave me a warm feeling.

“I remember doing that with Rebecca,” said Jacob. “Do you remember the yummy avocado enchiladas we had at Tarahumara’s?”

“Oh yes. They were delicious,” said Rebecca.

Jacob and Rebecca went back and forth about the different restaurants they had gone to together around OU. I looked over at Caitlin and she looked pissed. I looked for an opening to bring up our shore excursion tomorrow but Jacob and Rebecca didn’t give me one for a long time.

It really doesn't have anything to do with sentence variety. By having paragraph that has dialogue start with dialogue (and therefore a double quote), I think I make it easier for the reader to process my writing. The dialogue paragraph jumps out from the other paragraphs.

As for speech tags, I didn't bother putting one when the narrator replies to Rebecca's question as to me it's clear who is speaking. I added "said Rebecca" to her reply to Jacob because it could have been Caitlin.

I started thinking about this a few days ago. I read some of a Harry Potter book after that and I tried to take the time to notice what she did dialogue and speech tags. In the pages I read, she always started paragraphs that had dialogue with dialogue. When Ron, Harry and Hermione were together, she was generous with the speech tags but when Harry was with just Ron or Hermione, she rarely used speech tags once dialogue started.

 

[PennLady]

It really doesn't have anything to do with sentence variety. By having paragraph that has dialogue start with dialogue (and therefore a double quote), I think I make it easier for the reader to process my writing. The dialogue paragraph jumps out from the other paragraphs.

Okay but again this has nothing to do with consistency or anything like that. Dialogue (in general) is supposed to be on its own line, or start its own paragraph, probably because it does indeed help readers understand. This is a rule of writing. I know that if dialogue is not separated out on stories submitted to Lit, they will often be rejected.

So, going back to the OP (I think), there is nothing wrong and probably much right with saying, "No thanks," I told the waiter, "we only need one." You can interrupt the statement as here, or you can have it all in one line, i.e., "No thanks, we only need one," I told the waiter.

As for speech tags, I didn't bother putting one when the narrator replies to Rebecca's question as to me it's clear who is speaking. I added "said Rebecca" to her reply to Jacob because it could have been Caitlin.

Actually I have to disagree with you here. It was not clear to me who was supposed to be answering Rebecca. You started with one person, introduced three more and did not specify who she was talking to. She could have been speaking to any or all of the people (narrator, Caitlyn, Jeff) present in the scene.

I deduced she was speaking to the narrator because after consideration, that was the only thing that made sense. It would have worked better, at least for me, if the tag had been Rebecca asked me. Or if there had been an "I replied" tag for the response.

I started thinking about this a few days ago. I read some of a Harry Potter book after that and I tried to take the time to notice what she did dialogue and speech tags. In the pages I read, she always started paragraphs that had dialogue with dialogue. When Ron, Harry and Hermione were together, she was generous with the speech tags but when Harry was with just Ron or Hermione, she rarely used speech tags once dialogue started.

If there are two people in a scene, then you need fewer speech tags because it's easier to tell who's speaking. (I used to have an editor who despised speech tags, especially in scenes with only two people. That's where I got in the habit of using few of them.) With three, you need more tags, OR you need some other indicator of who's speaking. Like:

"I found it." Jane held up the book.

I also think, yes, most paragraphs with dialogue will start with dialogue. I think it's easiest and makes most sense. But you will run across the opposite, where a paragraph contains some dialogue but doesn't start with it. But that doesn't mean that's wrong.

 

[Over_Red]

My impression is that when I read novels, I see the dialogue first and any action afterwards. For example:

When the waiter tried to hand me a menu, I said, "No thanks. We'll need only one."

Occasionally, I need to have the action first in order for the dialogue to make sense. For example:

"No thanks," I said as the waiter tried to hand me a menu. "We'll need only one."

Is that okay? Should I re-write some how?

It absolutely matters in what order you place it. Snippets of action that are placed alongside dialogue, which are called beats, are extremely important.

1) They imply information about the speed at which the characters are talking. Longer beats suggest a pause.
2) They help to give dialogue cadence by creating spaces between spoken words.
3) Over half of communication is nonverbal. What the characters are doing with their hands, bodies, and faces is important.
4) Beats can add tone to dialogue - sarcasm, emphasis - without the use of a bulky and distracting adverb or speech attribution.

Every single use of a beat is a big decision. Therefore, the placement is just as important. Don't change up beats for the sake of variety. Use them with purpose.

Where you put the beat depends on what you're trying to accomplish.

Let's take your example. If you put the action all at the front, you compress the dialogue at the end. There's no interruption in the words; they are said together, at once. This speeds up the pace of reading. The reader does not need to mentally halt dialogue, orient to the physical situation, and then reorient to dialogue.

If you place the beat in the middle, you create a pause. This puts more of the reader's attention to the location of characters in space. The words become less important; they orbit around the action.

The beat is a tool to direct your reader's attention and change the pace of the writing. It's a small detail, but vital to creating a smooth sense of authenticity. If you forget them, you get the "talking heads floating in space" effect. If you overuse them, it becomes an interruption, pulling the reader from the story. A good balance is key, with adjustments in either direction to either speed up or slow down the pace as suits the scene.

There is no right or wrong way to do it. Understand and appreciate how beats affect your writing; use them as a tool to create a more engaging story.

 

[GoldenCojones]

Actually, I think just the opposite. When I am reading, I'm processing the story as fast as possible. I think I read more quickly when the story is presented consistently. If I know that paragraphs that have dialogue always start with a double quote and paragraphs that don't have dialogue don't, I think it helps me process the story more quickly.

When I'm reading technical material I am processing as quickly as possible. When I read for pleasure I process slowly and like to immerse myself in the story. So, technical writing, IMHO, should be consistent and follow standard technical writing guidelines. Pleasure reading should, again IMHO, NOT follow a formula. It should flow. It should have a rhythm. It should have short sentences and long sentences, complex and simple sentences. When I read your snippet it does this. I actually enjoyed reading your example very much and I would probably read the entire story, because, purposefully or not, you had variety in your prose.

I read somewhere that readers don't notice speech tags in stories. I would think the goal would be to make the story as easy to read as possible and writing to avoid speech tags would slow the reader because they have to think more to figure out who is speaking.

I don't know where you read that. It may be true when applied to averages or specific focus groups. I however do notice speech tags in stories. I notice when they are over used and become cumbersome and I notice when they are underused and their lack creates confusion. I don't use many speech tags because I prefer to allow action / description or "beats", as Over_Red called them, to indicate who is speaking. Every author has his/her own style and a very large part of my enjoyment in reading is experiencing the author's style.

 

[bbtp41]

Not entirely sure of what you are saying.

Clearly, I was drinking too heavily when I wrote that.

 

[robertreams]

There is nothing wrong with the dialog either way, but I would be carefull how I used "as". I would say: "Fred, stand back," I said, pointing the gun at him.

 

[SamScribble]

I think, to some extent, it comes down to whether you want the reader to 'see' first or 'hear' first.

Amanda stepped forward with her hand upheld like a New York traffic cop. 'Just don't go there,' she said. (See first.)

Or ...

'Don't even think of going there,' Amanda said. 'Or I'll have your balls.' And to emphasise her point, she made a little snipping gesture with her fore finger and index finger. (Hear first.)

And on the subject of dialogue tags ... they can be very useful in pacing the dialogue.

'Well, I'd never say never,' Mark said. 'Not based on such limited information. But at some future date ... hey, who knows?'

Just don't say 'he asserted' or 'she attested'.

 

[Handley_Page]

There is nothing wrong with the dialog either way, but I would be carefull how I used "as". I would say: "Fred, stand back," I said, pointing the gun at him.

"Fred," I said, "stand back," as I pointed the gun at him.

When you speak, there's a natural pause after 'Fred'.
I feel that this pause is admirably filled with the information 'I said.'

 

[PennLady]

Just don't say 'he asserted' or 'she attested'.

Well, don't say it unless it's the right word for the scene.

 

[8letters]

Thanks for all of the replies

I think I was looking at the wrong book when I was wondering about this issue as the other novels I have picked up since my OP have had the beats in multiple places. I greatly appreciated Over_Red's discussion of how I should be using the beats to emphasis what is important in that sentence. SamScribble also had a helpful comment on that subject.

My current style is to have dialogue start any paragraph with dialogue. I am going to finish my story that way, then go back through and try to be intentional in the placement of speech tags and other beats. So hopefully this discussion will improve me as a writer.

I actually enjoyed reading your example very much and I would probably read the entire story, because, purposefully or not, you had variety in your prose.

It's going to be a brother-sister incest story. If that doesn't scare you off, then I'll PM you when it gets published.

 

[49greg]

I do it every which way. Mixing it up seems to work best, if you keep everyone and everything clear.

I've had complaints for a couple of my stories about not keeping it clear who's talking. Each time it was when I had a long conversation going. I get tired of, and think it's clunky to keep saying, 'John said', 'Agnes said', 'Mike quipped,' 'Truman droned,' etc etc.

But then I read back the conversations in question and saw that after a few exchanges it could be hard to tell. So I've tried to keep the 'he said, she said' broken up, sometimes just inserting action or narration in to break up the long conversations.

I remember being a pre-teen reading grown up books, and running into the same problem. More than once I found strings of conversation that didn't work out just assuming that alternate lines of dialog meant different talkers. And they were books written back in the day when publishers kept professional editors on staff.