question from newbie

[kimbalee]

I asked around and don't really have an answer yet. "Opinions" vary dramatically... I have sent a PM to Laurel and I'm waiting to hear back.

I need to know the guidelines on posting a story with song lyrics included. The song is very explicit, the words are not used out of context, and the song is meant to be playing in the background.

TIA for any help provded here.

 

[CopyCarver]

I asked around and don't really have an answer yet. "Opinions" vary dramatically... I have sent a PM to Laurel and I'm waiting to hear back.

I need to know the guidelines on posting a story with song lyrics included. The song is very explicit, the words are not used out of context, and the song is meant to be playing in the background.

TIA for any help provded here.

What "guidelines" are you requesting? Literotica's policy? Copyright law? Formatting?

 

[kimbalee]

sorry

was away reading and voting, how about that?

I guess everything you've mentioned would be important. I originally wanted to know Lit's policy, but anything at all is better than what I have now, which is zilch. I have the album, artist, writers, and label info and think I should include all of it to give credit. Other than that, I'm at a loss.

 

[sr71plt]

was away reading and voting, how about that?

I guess everything you've mentioned would be important. I originally wanted to know Lit's policy, but anything at all is better than what I have now, which is zilch. I have the album, artist, writers, and label info and think I should include all of it to give credit. Other than that, I'm at a loss.

You have zilch? You got a whole thread on this at AH.

 

[CopyCarver]

was away reading and voting, how about that?

I guess everything you've mentioned would be important. I originally wanted to know Lit's policy, but anything at all is better than what I have now, which is zilch. I have the album, artist, writers, and label info and think I should include all of it to give credit. Other than that, I'm at a loss.

Several of "my" writers have included song lyrics in their stories with no problems. So far as I know, Lit doesn't have any problem with lyrics so long as they don't violate anyone's copyright. Laurel would be a far better judge of that point than I am, however.

Copyright law is a huge topic that (literally) fills many volumes. In a nutshell, however, court rulings generally revolve around:
1) the amount of the copyrighted work that is used without permission
2) whether or not you give credit where credit is due
3) whether your usage of the copyrighted work diminished the value of
the work to its rightful owner.

Basically, if you quote only a relatively small portion of a song, give credit, and include the lyrics in a nonmusical form within a work of fiction, you shouldn't have any problem. "Shouldn't" is the operative word because nothing is ever certain with legal issues, but it's unlikely that you would be sued. It's probable (albeit not absolutely certain) that the worst case scenario would involve a "cease and desist" demand. More likely, you won't hassled at all.

 

[kimbalee]

sr7

Please don't be upset with me. I realize that I started a thread there, and that you were very active in it. Don't be angry that I'm a dumbass and just read your bio. (oops)

I am sorry that I really don't know my way around the format side since I am so new. I am still trying to figure things out here. I clicked here thinking I would try to get a Lit editor who deals with this to weigh in. The "zilch" meant I had nothing yet from Laurel, specifically, and I completely understand since she is probably loaded with one PM headache after another.

The first two submissions I made by just pasting the story into the little box, and I hit "submit". Wah lah, it worked! Afterwards, I realized I might want to try it the right way and go for an editor that could probably help me out. I think my next story is much better than the last two, and even the third one that is still in "pending." I want to do it justice, but not get myself or anyone else into trouble because of stupidity on my part. I'd really feel bad if something like that happened.

 

[kimbalee]

"Basically, if you quote only a relatively small portion of a song, give credit, and include the lyrics in a nonmusical form within a work of fiction, you shouldn't have any problem. "Shouldn't" is the operative word because nothing is ever certain with legal issues, but it's unlikely that you would be sued. "

So how do I know until I try to post it, right? Is that the only way to find out if it is going to fly or not?

How do I get an editor to look it over and tell me if it's a go or not otherwise?

I'll let you know upfront that the story is based around it and can't really stand on its own. It is used in almost its entirety, and that there are 447 words of the song that make up just under 10% of the entire body. I'm not claiming to have written it, nor have the characters, and it is just supposed to be playing in the background. I don't take the lyrics out of context, they are extremely (in my opinion) explicit already.

 

[sr71plt]

Please don't be upset with me. I realize that I started a thread there, and that you were very active in it. Don't be angry that I'm a dumbass and just read your bio. (oops)

I am sorry that I really don't know my way around the format side since I am so new. I am still trying to figure things out here. I clicked here thinking I would try to get a Lit editor who deals with this to weigh in. The "zilch" meant I had nothing yet from Laurel, specifically, and I completely understand since she is probably loaded with one PM headache after another.

The first two submissions I made by just pasting the story into the little box, and I hit "submit". Wah lah, it worked! Afterwards, I realized I might want to try it the right way and go for an editor that could probably help me out. I think my next story is much better than the last two, and even the third one that is still in "pending." I want to do it justice, but not get myself or anyone else into trouble because of stupidity on my part. I'd really feel bad if something like that happened.

Peace (although it took time and effort to respond to this question on AH, so the "zilch" looked a little insulting). You've gotten essentially the same response here that I gave you elsewhere, though. You don't really have the "right" or "protection" to use anywhere near the extent of the lyrics you want to, but it's unlikely anyone will catch up with you for doing so--with what the Web site being willing to risk as the controlling factor in what you can post on Lit. And the only one who can give you Lit. policy on this is Laurel.

 

[snoopercharmbrights]

"Basically, if you quote only a relatively small portion of a song, give credit, and include the lyrics in a nonmusical form within a work of fiction, you shouldn't have any problem. "Shouldn't" is the operative word because nothing is ever certain with legal issues, but it's unlikely that you would be sued. "

So how do I know until I try to post it, right? Is that the only way to find out if it is going to fly or not? ...

Well, you don't specifically know. However there are precedents where much the same thing has been done and (I deduce from the fact that it is still allowed on here) nobody has been sued.

... How do I get an editor to look it over and tell me if it's a go or not otherwise? ...

Keep checking your PMs and keep this thread alive until one of the Volunteer Editors shows an interest.

... I'll let you know upfront that the story is based around it and can't really stand on its own. It is used in almost its entirety, and that there are 447 words of the song that make up just under 10% of the entire body. I'm not claiming to have written it, nor have the characters, and it is just supposed to be playing in the background. I don't take the lyrics out of context, they are extremely (in my opinion) explicit already.

An "Author's Note" at the start of the story saying that the lyrics of whatever the song is are by whoever, and then always putting them in italics whenever you are quoting will help.

 

[kimbalee]

sr7

Glad you're not mad, I'd have felt bad if I thought you took the posting here as me not trusting the info you provided, which was not the case at all. Yes, I'm still up. Sick and coughing too musch to sleep. Maybe I could blame it on my drugs and illness??? lol Hubby's alarm just went off. I guess now I can try to get some sleep without waking him. Goodnight.

 

[kimbalee]

snooper

Thanks for your info, too.

I do have the info for the credits at the very beginning, and also every song line is in itallic within quotes, and double spaced between the paragraphs that I wrote. Hope it will work.

edit: Oh, yeah, forgot to ask, why the name change? Too famous here?

 

[cloudy]

Glad you're not mad, I'd have felt bad if I thought you took the posting here as me not trusting the info you provided, which was not the case at all. Yes, I'm still up. Sick and coughing too musch to sleep. Maybe I could blame it on my drugs and illness??? lol Hubby's alarm just went off. I guess now I can try to get some sleep without waking him. Goodnight.

Don't worry about upsetting him. Stick around long enough and you'll realize, like everyone else has, that sorry plot is a pompous ass who thinks his shit doesn't stink.

Laurel's policy on lyrics is that you can use approx. 50% of the song's lyrics in story, but they must be credited.

(would've answered sooner, but I've been sick)

 

[sr71plt]

You're smart to pursue this question, Kimbalee. I and others have pointed to what little help copyright law provides on this question. As far as what the Web site will risk, only Laurel can answer that question for you. If she's posted the policy where you can see it--and can see that it's from the Web site--other posters claiming to know what her current policy is should lead you to that posting. Beyond that, you won't know until you've seen a policy directly from Laurel yourself.

The same people who claim to know Laurel's policy also say she always answers PMs sent to her, so, according to them, you'll receive a response to the PM you've sent. If not . . .

You could always force the question and just go ahead and submit your story and put your question about whether you've stayed within the Web site bounds on how much of the lyrics can be used right in the "Notes" box in the submission. If you do that, let us know if the story went through. Good luck.

 

[kimbalee]

well...

I never did get any sleep, just showered and went to work instead. Had to clean snow off the car first at 7 degrees. Glad hubby did earlier last night. too or it would have been worse. When I got to work, the heat was broken- today the high so far is 17 degrees, it was freezing in there, and now I feel worse. Just got home and checked in here. Loading up with drugs and takin' a snooze now.


So, maybe I will just try it and see how it goes.


I have a question, though on the third story I submitted. It was rejected once, and I am assuming it was because I ran a line across the page to break up the scenes and it was too long because it gave me the line that I had something that would appear in the "blue" on the right side of the screen. Hope you understand what I mean here. I cut it down to the 30 characters that it specified, and resubmitted because it said I could. I got the same thing. I cut the characters down to I think three. It was Saturday when I was starting to get sick, and now I'm not positive. Anyway... now when I check the submissions, the "pending" is not hilighted in blue like the "approved" but it's in regular type face, black ink. Did I do something wrong here or am I too out of it from lack of sleep here? Do you see now why I need an editor? HINT, HINT... pretty please???

 

[kimbalee]

just checked again...

I can't help myself... I NEED to know!

Well, the date beside it is tomorrow's date, so maybe everything's okay. Whew, now I'm really going to sleep- only to wake up and check again, I'm sure. lol 'night

 

[cloudy]

The same people who claim to know Laurel's policy also say she always answers PMs sent to her, so, according to them, you'll receive a response to the PM you've sent. If not . . .

Just because you're not liked....

kimbalee: the answer I gave you was the exact one I, and others (including Selena) have received directly from Laurel. I have no reason to tell you anything different, whatever anyone else would have you believe.

 

[sr71plt]

Just because you're not liked....

kimbalee: the answer I gave you was the exact one I, and others (including Selena) have received directly from Laurel. I have no reason to tell you anything different, whatever anyone else would have you believe.

Speaking for the Web management, but still not pointing to anything concrete or current. I'm not sure why the need to assert undocumented "knowledge" such as this or what the problem is in getting current policy straight from the Web site management--which can easily happen by submitting the story with a question in the Notes column. Which is basically what Cloudy is saying to do anyway (without the note, I guess--which, yes, is also an option). Cloudy's last story posted here is over two and a half years old. That hardly makes her an authority on current submissions policies/practices.

 

[CopyCarver]

Just because you're not liked....

kimbalee: the answer I gave you was the exact one I, and others (including Selena) have received directly from Laurel. I have no reason to tell you anything different, whatever anyone else would have you believe.

Although I've never discussed this specific matter with Laurel, your answer meshes perfectly with the results several writers have obtained. Beyond no reason to tell kimbalee anything different, there is no evidence that you did.

Methinks that kimbalee not only got good advice regarding the question she asked but also serendipitously got a lesson in the wisdom of hitting the ignore button on an unnamed individual who probably can't even pay anyone to listen to him.

 

[cloudy]

Methinks that kimbalee not only got good advice regarding the question she asked but also serendipitously got a lesson in the wisdom of hitting the ignore button on an unnamed individual who probably can't even pay anyone to listen to him.

Indeed.

 

[sr71plt]

Do let us know how your story fares, Kimbalee. And do let me know if my advice hasn't been helpful or supportive--or if I told you what you could or couldn't do just off the top of my head without trying to point to an authority--which, on this board--and especially concerning a propriety of publishing on this Web site issue--would be Laurel, not anyone claiming to be Laurel's spokesperson. No one else can take on either your or Laurel's responsibilities on a copyright issue.

I'm not sure what part of "submit the story with a note posing your question" is restrictive or not common sense or in any way denying that your story might be published here as you wrote it--or grounds for personal attacks. But now at least you have gotten exposure to some of the dynamics of the forum and of some here who feel threatened.

To be fair, I think CopyCarver's response on this thread at 2:24 was the best expressed, most succinct response to your question. But, again, I don't see the downside of just submitting the story with a question posted in the "notes" column--unless you are still wondering about the personal risk--which, as I (and others) noted, is extremely low, even though there really aren't any legal protections from suit if you use any specifically identifiable phrase even from lyrics of a published song.

 

[cloudy]

Cloudy's last story posted here is over two and a half years old. That hardly makes her an authority on current submissions policies/practices.

And you have no idea whether or not I post stories under another name or not, do you?



Even if your assumption were true, I have continued to be a contributing, working, and sometimes even sought after editor here at Lit, so your jealous sniping that I don't contribute anything to the site not only shows you for the small, petty person that you are, but is also, ahem, wrong.

 

[sr71plt]

And you have no idea whether or not I post stories under another name or not, do you?



Even if your assumption were true, I have continued to be a contributing, working, and sometimes even sought after editor here at Lit, so your jealous sniping that I don't contribute anything to the site not only shows you for the small, petty person that you are, but is also, ahem, wrong.

Oh, you exhibit quite nicely what you are, Cloudy.

 

[kimbalee]

awake again

it was fun while it lasted, but coughed myself awake.

I forgot to check the # of views, which have been previously: 2 the first time I submitted, and 4 the second time, and now, still 4. Curious, no? Maybe they're sick of me already. (Might have cought my cooties. ) Maybe what's pending is whether or not they're going to push the handle to the toilet over which it is hanging precariously as I speak...

 

[kimbalee]

Yay! The PM from Laurel:

Re: question about including song lyrics in story

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Hi there!

With lyrics and poetry, we generally allow no more than 50% - and we ask that you give the author credit for the lyrics within the story. With articles and longer works, we generally ask that you quote no more than 10% - and again, please credit the original author. Hope this helps, and sorry for the delay!! If days were about 4 hours longer, I might someday be able to get caught up with everything.


Quote:
Originally Posted by kimbalee
I am unsure of the guidelines to use in posting a story that makes reference to the lyrics of a song. The song is quite explicit, and the story doesn't take the words out of context. The song is meant to be heard as background music from which the characters take their actions.

I guess I would just like to know whether it is acceptable to post if I include the following info as a credit:

album, writers, label, and artists

Thanks for your help.

kimbalee

 

[sr71plt]

Ah, good, the actual authority speaks. Thanks for reporting back and kudos for tracking it down Kimbalee, although it looks like you'll have to do some trimming from your story. But the good news is that the site is willing to accept extroardinary risk on song lyrics, the most litigious segment of the industry.

Too bad this isn't covered in the site FAQs. Maybe there's some place the editors here can get this permanently posted(?)