Question for Women Seriously Looking

[Chris_Michael]

What are your thoughts about men in general these days? I've come across some interesting stats recently and I'm sure this reflects on the dating scene. And it definitely would cross over into the world of Lit. Here are some pieces of info.

Since 1960, we reached a record low in marriage rates in 2012 - 72% to 51%. In 2009 to 2010, that stat dropped 5% alone. Now, that % is below 50%

29% of young adult men desire marriage, which is described as "amazingly low" by the article.

There's no stat here, but the article claims that women no longer need men as a source of support. I personally find this to be true. As a matter of fact, I am in one of the only fields where there is no gender pay gap. Actually, women make 5% more than men in pharmacist positions. (Source not listed but I can find it if someone needs it. I'm just on my cell phone in bed. lol)

Sex is available to men and women without any kind of commitment relative to previous decades. Even if a man can't get laid, there's porn. So, there's no need to be married.

Speaking of porn, according to this article, men actually prefer porn than the real thing! There's no study here but I can see how it would be easier to just use porn than it is to meet people, schedule dates, put in effort, and take risks.

Finally, marriage is a huge risk for both men and women. In such a society where student loan debt can be six figures, that risk may not be worth it.

What it all boils down to is "Does the benefit outweight the risk?" For both men and women, I say no. I wouldn't blame women for not marrying. And aside from raising children, I see no necessity to marry.

I'm curious, though. As a woman, what are your thoughts about it? Are guys today just not real men like they used to be? Are men weaker?

Me personally? I'm a piece of shit. I play videogames all day. To place the responsibility of a wife and child in my life would be a desaster. So, I'll save you some time and concede that I'm an anomaly, piece of crap, worthless, no-life, beta turd ball who couldn't get laid even if he har a million dollars to pay a prostitute.

Link: http://blog.adw.org/2015/10/men-are...-than-ever-a-reflection-on-a-serious-problem/

 

[ann_alter]

I'm curious, though. As a woman, what are your thoughts about it? Are guys today just not real men like they used to be? Are men weaker?

Me personally? I'm a piece of shit. I play videogames all day.

I don't think real men were ever 'real men' - but I think they tried. The good ones, anyway. They did their best, because it made them feel proud when they succeeded. It was a part of male identity, in a way, which is about as good an incentive as they get. And it did make them stronger, because fighting for anything does that to you. Guys these days, even if they do marry, seem to view it mostly as something they need to get done to be able to move on to more fun things in life. A dirty sock or a bag of trash will appreciate that treatment, but a human, not really. Especially not a human hell-bent on storybook romance.

I'm curious, though. Isn't a female point of view on marriage a bit of an unusual target of interest for a piece of shit all-day gamer (no offense) who thinks a million can't get him laid?

 

[Chris_Michael]

I don't think real men were ever 'real men' - but I think they tried. The good ones, anyway. They did their best, because it made them feel proud when they succeeded. It was a part of male identity, in a way, which is about as good an incentive as they get. And it did make them stronger, because fighting for anything does that to you. Guys these days, even if they do marry, seem to view it mostly as something they need to get done to be able to move on to more fun things in life. A dirty sock or a bag of trash will appreciate that treatment, but a human, not really. Especially not a human hell-bent on storybook romance.

I'm curious, though. Isn't a female point of view on marriage a bit of an unusual target of interest for a piece of shit all-day gamer (no offense) who thinks a million can't get him laid?

WELCOME TO LIT! Now, everybody is going to think you're me... 'sigh'

Anyway, throughout my years, I have had one best male friend growing up and the rest of my friends have always been female. I don't get along with men. I don't like sitting down at a table full of men talking about stupid shit like huntin' and fishin' and other masculine stuff.

I can AND HAVE out-talked women on Skype calls. Women are just easier to talk to for some reason.

 

[ann_alter]

Well yes, women are much easier to get along with, so soft and cuddly. Men are all hair and sharp angles, mess around with one fo those and you'll likely get pricked. Not that that answers why you haven't, say, asked for a female take on chocolate icecream. Or huntin'. Just sayin'.

Who's everybody? And why do they mind if you're having a nice chat with yourself?
Anyway - I'm not entirely new to Lit, this was just meant to be a new blank account to allow me to read the threads in peace... until I forgot and posted. I'd make a crap secret agent. In any case, I appreciate the welcome, it's a nice thought

Is talkative a pharmacists' thing? A friend of mine is a pharmacist, and I'm pretty sure she can outtalk anyone.

 

[LWulf]

...opposed to women who are looking but aren't so serious?

personally, I prefer women who aren't so serious. cracking a joke (note, sarcasm is a poor excuse for witticism (whitticism?) every now and then is a big plus.

 

[ann_alter]

If the two are opposites, it explains so much about my life. Seriously.

 

[Chris_Michael]

Well yes, women are much easier to get along with, so soft and cuddly. Men are all hair and sharp angles, mess around with one fo those and you'll likely get pricked. Not that that answers why you haven't, say, asked for a female take on chocolate icecream. Or huntin'. Just sayin'.

Who's everybody? And why do they mind if you're having a nice chat with yourself?
Anyway - I'm not entirely new to Lit, this was just meant to be a new blank account to allow me to read the threads in peace... until I forgot and posted. I'd make a crap secret agent. In any case, I appreciate the welcome, it's a nice thought

Is talkative a pharmacists' thing? A friend of mine is a pharmacist, and I'm pretty sure she can outtalk anyone.

Trust me, everybody on the board. I find out all the time that there are people questioning if alts are mine. >.< If there is an alt trolling the board, I hear from friends, "People keep asking if that's you."

Can you reiterate what you mean by me asking a woman about chocolate ice cream or hunting? I don't think I understand what you mean.

Yeah, pharmacists can be very talkative, though I enjoy the ones that don't talk at all because they don't bother me. When I'm working, I like talking to the techs casually because it helps make them feel comfortable about communicating with me and it also helps with overall morale. A tech can make you or break you, and if they like you, they are much more willing to go the extra mile. And I can say, I greatly appreciate hard working techs. I'll take those techs over an extra pharmacist on duty any day.

 

[Chris_Michael]

...opposed to women who are looking but aren't so serious?

personally, I prefer women who aren't so serious. cracking a joke (note, sarcasm is a poor excuse for witticism (whitticism?) every now and then is a big plus.

I mean looking for a serious relationship. It doesn't necessarily have to do with Lit, but it CAN be related to Lit.

Personality wasn't the point.

What I'm trying to get at is, "What do women think about the state of mens' lack of commitment in today's society?" It matters.

 

[MaryanneB]

I mean looking for a serious relationship. It doesn't necessarily have to do with Lit, but it CAN be related to Lit.

Personality wasn't the point.

What I'm trying to get at is, "What do women think about the state of mens' lack of commitment in today's society?" It matters.

The average man I've met on Lit is in his 40s or 50s and in a committed relationship. Lit is an interacting piece of porn. I'm not judging. Just stating a fact.
I don't want a live in S/O or another husband and I enjoy my freedom. It's a great time to be a frail little widow lady.......
In general, you seem to be saying that women WANT a commitment. Do you think they do?

 

[Chris_Michael]

The average man I've met on Lit is in his 40s or 50s and in a committed relationship. Lit is an interacting piece of porn. I'm not judging. Just stating a fact.
I don't want a live in S/O or another husband and enjoy my freedom. It's a great time to be a frail little widow lady.......
In general, since I'm not looking for commitment. You seem to be saying that women WANT a commitment. Do you think they do?

Nope. The question is for women seriously looking, not for women in general. Anybody may answer, of course, even men and non-binary gender attack helicopters.

If you're not looking for something serious, perhaps you can look at the question from a different perspective. Maybe you can add why it's good that people aren't looking for commitment. I surely do think so. However, there are many single moms asking the question, "Where have all the good men gone?"

This thread is looking at what trends are occurring and how women feel about it.

 

[Sensualdreamer]

Interesting post. *taps pen on desk*

Men (should I say males) today are not the type of men I'm accustomed to...in fact they're mostly a let down. For instance, my daddy is a retired Marine. I remember times when he worked two jobs to provide for our family. On the other hand, I remember my former brother in law. He couldn't hold a stable job and saw no problem with sticking his hand out and asking for assistance. My dad had too much pride, and a work ethic to EVER ask for assistance.

Give me a "man's man" a guy who is clean shaven, not a "gamer", someone who is active and has a balance to his hobbies (fishing/hunting) knows men don't wear skinny jeans, someone with a work ethic, someone who is conservative with a twist for some kink, someone who can hold a conversation beyond the sterile safe "hi how are you", someone who believes chivalry is not dead, and will ask a woman out on a date, pay for the date and NOT expect sex will be his reward for acting like a damned gentleman.

That said...I'm a marine brat and civilians are a weird breed.

 

[RacyWilde]

I'm curious, though. As a woman, what are your thoughts about it? Are guys today just not real men like they used to be? Are men weaker?

Hi, just my (strong) thoughts on the subject

Marriage is a construct of religion. Throughout the ages it was designed to join empires, families, riches and forces. It was about survival. Daughters were bartered for the benefit of the family, they were things to be traded and bought. It is only in the last 200 years in the Western World that marriage has been seen as something to do out of love. Marriage is a legally binding contract that is recognised by the State and Church. But love… love is free - it has no earthly restraints. The main reason people get married these days is out of custom/tradition, religious dogma, family, and State/legal benefits (even social status). However, we all know you don’t need to marry to prove you love and trust someone, to commit to them. So what’s the point of it? - unless you want to put a down payment on a house and need to prove to the bank that you and your partner are legally bound financially through marriage to pay off the house - two incomes are better than one.

No I’m an not cynical about marriage, though it may seem. I believe in it, and value it, though I disagree that society should have a hand in it. I think marriage should only be between the couple and not the State or Church. Today we have the luxury to marry out of love. To me, marriage is an outward expression of an inner commitment. It is an oath of the heart, a covenant of the soul.

So let’s talk about ‘real men’. In my view, all men are real. Many think they are products of the society and family they grew up in, however, I don’t believe this. The things that sets men apart is character. People think character is developed through hardship and trials and conflict. But no, character is developed from within no matter the outside world. Honour, integrity, dignity, kindness, humility, wisdom… and love. Every man has these qualities born in him - thus is the human race - and it is up to him, and him alone, whether or not to magnify these qualities to the best of his ability. To do this is through the choices he makes, everyday choices. Sure, it helps if he had great people around him that allowed him to develop those qualities growing up… but, the human spirit is mighty and these qualities can be developed no matter the circumstance a man is born into. Thus, a real man does all within his power to be the best self he can be with his lot.

Women don’t want perfect men, they want the perfectly imperfect... the men who not only wish they could be better but the ones who strive every day to become.

There is nothing more attractive than a man who not only magnifies his intellect, but his heart and soul too.

 

[Chris_Michael]

Interesting post. *taps pen on desk*

Men (should I say males) today are not the type of men I'm accustomed to...in fact they're mostly a let down. For instance, my daddy is a retired Marine. I remember times when he worked two jobs to provide for our family. On the other hand, I remember my former brother in law. He couldn't hold a stable job and saw no problem with sticking his hand out and asking for assistance. My dad had too much pride, and a work ethic to EVER ask for assistance.

Give me a "man's man" a guy who is clean shaven, not a "gamer", someone who is active and has a balance to his hobbies (fishing/hunting) knows men don't wear skinny jeans, someone with a work ethic, someone who is conservative with a twist for some kink, someone who can hold a conversation beyond the sterile safe "hi how are you", someone who believes chivalry is not dead, and will ask a woman out on a date, pay for the date and NOT expect sex will be his reward for acting like a damned gentleman.

That said...I'm a marine brat and civilians are a weird breed.

Thank you.

I know why these other women are avoiding the question. The male qualities you have laid out promote the idea of traditional gender roles. I have absolutely zero problems with you wanting those qualities in a man. I was just interested in what the women of Lit thought, that's all.

 

[Chris_Michael]

Hi, just my (strong) thoughts on the subject

Marriage is a construct of religion. Throughout the ages it was designed to join empires, families, riches and forces. It was about survival. Daughters were bartered for the benefit of the family, they were things to be traded and bought. It is only in the last 200 years in the Western World that marriage has been seen as something to do out of love. Marriage is a legally binding contract that is recognised by the State and Church. But love… love is free - it has no earthly restraints. The main reason people get married these days is out of custom/tradition, religious dogma, family, and State/legal benefits (even social status). However, we all know you don’t need to marry to prove you love and trust someone, to commit to them. So what’s the point of it? - unless you want to put a down payment on a house and need to prove to the bank that you and your partner are legally bound financially through marriage to pay off the house - two incomes are better than one.

No I’m an not cynical about marriage, though it may seem. I believe in it, and value it, though I disagree that society should have a hand in it. I think marriage should only be between the couple and not the State or Church. Today we have the luxury to marry out of love. To me, marriage is an outward expression of an inner commitment. It is an oath of the heart, a covenant of the soul.

So let’s talk about ‘real men’. In my view, all men are real. Many think they are products of the society and family they grew up in, however, I don’t believe this. The things that sets men apart is character. People think character is developed through hardship and trials and conflict. But no, character is developed from within no matter the outside world. Honour, integrity, dignity, kindness, humility, wisdom… and love. Every man has these qualities born in him - thus is the human race - and it is up to him, and him alone, whether or not to magnify these qualities to the best of his ability. To do this is through the choices he makes, everyday choices. Sure, it helps if he had great people around him that allowed him to develop those qualities growing up… but, the human spirit is mighty and these qualities can be developed no matter the circumstance a man is born into. Thus, a real man does all within his power to be the best self he can be with his lot.

Women don’t want perfect men, they want the perfectly imperfect... the men who not only wish they could be better but the ones who strive every day to become.

There is nothing more attractive than a man who not only magnifies his intellect, but his heart and soul too.

Thank you. I agree wholeheartedly.

 

[ann_alter]

Trust me, everybody on the board. I find out all the time that there are people questioning if alts are mine. >.< If there is an alt trolling the board, I hear from friends, "People keep asking if that's you."

Can you reiterate what you mean by me asking a woman about chocolate ice cream or hunting? I don't think I understand what you mean.
.

Well, in this instance at least, there's no reason for troll hunters to get concerned.

I meant mostly that men don't often bring up marriage, especially not unmarried young men who aren't looking to change their circumstances; it's an unusual choice of topic, that's all. When I run into unexpected things, I tend to ask why. It's like nail-biting, difficult to resist but bound to get one unpleasantness.

It's a very good topic though. I think there's lack of commitment partly because there's an illusion of unending options, and endless options mean - whichever way you commit - you're always missing out on a better choice. It's like standing before a dozen choices of toothpaste in the supermarket; you thought you only wanted something to help against your teeth rotting, but now that you've looked at all these, well, maybe you also want your mouth to smell like a flower meddow and be brilliant like the sunshine.

Or, partly, it can be due to the fact that commitment isn't a fun word. LWolf might have been on topic. Who wants a long-term boring thing? This is why orgasms and exclusivity in marriage were invented. Now that we've done away with the arrangement, we're kinda fucked. In a non-sexy way.

 

[Chris_Michael]

Well, in this instance at least, there's no reason for troll hunters to get concerned.

I meant mostly that men don't often bring up marriage, especially not unmarried young men who aren't looking to change their circumstances; it's an unusual choice of topic, that's all. When I run into unexpected things, I tend to ask why. It's like nail-biting, difficult to resist but bound to get one unpleasantness.

It's a very good topic though. I think there's lack of commitment partly because there's an illusion of unending options, and endless options mean - whichever way you commit - you're always missing out on a better choice. It's like standing before a dozen choices of toothpaste in the supermarket; you thought you only wanted something to help against your teeth rotting, but now that you've looked at all these, well, maybe you also want your mouth to smell like a flower meddow and be brilliant like the sunshine.

Or, partly, it can be due to the fact that commitment isn't a fun word. LWolf might have been on topic. Who wants a long-term boring thing? This is why orgasms and exclusivity in marriage were invented. Now that we've done away with the arrangement, we're kinda fucked. In a non-sexy way.

Well, it's an assessment of risk vs. benefit.

In the 60s and up, men wanted sex. They were willing to put a ring on a woman's finger to get sex. In 2016, free porn floods the internet. Men are becoming less and less like the traditional manly man and are slowly turning into gamers with no care in the world. Responsibility is extremely difficult, and if sex is available to a man, why would he even try? We don't have biological clocks (or at least I don't) and we can just do our own thing and jack off to porn. Why make a commitment?

It's just something I wanted to hear women's opinions on. I don't particularly mind hearing opinions that differ from mine since I fall outside the category anyway. So, I have no dog in this fight. *shrugs*

I do have female friends and I very very much enjoy my time talking with them. I could never spend hours on the phone with a man. I could never go anywhere with a man and feel slightly comfortable about it. I don't like men, just in general. Not just romantically. I just don't find them likable.

And before anybody says it, I'm totally a beta. Yep. That's why.

 

[txgent101]

Well yes, women are much easier to get along with, so soft and cuddly. Men are all hair and sharp angles,

Old Timey take on what you said:

"What are little girls made of?
Sugar and spice, and everything nice,
That's what little girls are made of.

What are little boys made of?
Snips and snails , and puppy dog tails,
That's what little boys are made of."

Just thought of that after reading your comment above....I tend to go back a few years.

 

[ann_alter]

Old Timey take on what you said:

"What are little girls made of?
Sugar and spice, and everything nice,
That's what little girls are made of.

What are little boys made of?
Snips and snails , and puppy dog tails,
That's what little boys are made of."

Just thought of that after reading your comment above....I tend to go back a few years.

You know, I think I might have heard that one
It's a bit weird, isn't it? Snipping and dog tails in the same verse and all.

 

[ann_alter]

Well, it's an assessment of risk vs. benefit.

In the 60s and up, men wanted sex. They were willing to put a ring on a woman's finger to get sex. In 2016, free porn floods the internet. Men are becoming less and less like the traditional manly man and are slowly turning into gamers with no care in the world. Responsibility is extremely difficult, and if sex is available to a man, why would he even try? We don't have biological clocks (or at least I don't) and we can just do our own thing and jack off to porn. Why make a commitment?

It's just something I wanted to hear women's opinions on. I don't particularly mind hearing opinions that differ from mine since I fall outside the category anyway. So, I have no dog in this fight. *shrugs*

I do have female friends and I very very much enjoy my time talking with them. I could never spend hours on the phone with a man. I could never go anywhere with a man and feel slightly comfortable about it. I don't like men, just in general. Not just romantically. I just don't find them likable.

And before anybody says it, I'm totally a beta. Yep. That's why.

Risk vs. benefit was kinda my point. Why does marriage equal risk? In theory, it's two people having sex, helping each other along in life, loving each other and all that - it should be benefits all around. Shouldn't it? Everyone says it should. So why is it so sucky? It only takes one side to view it as sucky and it's broken. If a guy is only into it to get pussy, he's probably not going to be getting much of it pretty soon. And if the lady is only looking for a ring and a few kids out of it, my guess is she's not the happiest woman ever. And then all of the sudden, it's all risk and compications.

On the whole alpha/beta issue - I wouldn't knock a non-alpha. If you happen to know any about twice you age, send 'em my way. And you probably know, you can still be a pretty damn good guy even if you're not the best guy, especially if huntin' and fishin' are the ways to figure out who's the best.

 

[Chris_Michael]

What's that? You wouldn't let a non-alpha knock you up? Well yeah, I don't blame you.

On a serious note, I suppose we should see a continuing decline in marriage but what about children? I dislike kids and don't want any (especially not another man's kid) but I must admit that marriage is good for them. So, there is still some reason to get married. If you wanted a family, yeah.

 

[ann_alter]

Well, maybe you're not the only one who doesn't want another man's kids

Yeah... I hope not but I expect the marriage will be on the decline - at least, the traditional kind. Most people still need somebody, I think. We may end up with a loving marriage after all, or siblings living together, friends, whatever.

Marriage can be good for kids, or it can be bad. There's societies that make do without it, and they do nicely, or even better than you'd expect. I would say kids need people to take care of them in a loving way. If it's their biological parents, that's lovely, but if not, that in itself isn't a problem. Or shoudln't be.

 

[Ubernaught]

Hi, just my (strong) thoughts on the subject

Marriage is a construct of religion. Throughout the ages it was designed to join empires, families, riches and forces. It was about survival. Daughters were bartered for the benefit of the family, they were things to be traded and bought. It is only in the last 200 years in the Western World that marriage has been seen as something to do out of love. Marriage is a legally binding contract that is recognised by the State and Church. But love… love is free - it has no earthly restraints. The main reason people get married these days is out of custom/tradition, religious dogma, family, and State/legal benefits (even social status). However, we all know you don’t need to marry to prove you love and trust someone, to commit to them. So what’s the point of it? - unless you want to put a down payment on a house and need to prove to the bank that you and your partner are legally bound financially through marriage to pay off the house - two incomes are better than one.

No I’m an not cynical about marriage, though it may seem. I believe in it, and value it, though I disagree that society should have a hand in it. I think marriage should only be between the couple and not the State or Church. Today we have the luxury to marry out of love. To me, marriage is an outward expression of an inner commitment. It is an oath of the heart, a covenant of the soul.

So let’s talk about ‘real men’. In my view, all men are real. Many think they are products of the society and family they grew up in, however, I don’t believe this. The things that sets men apart is character. People think character is developed through hardship and trials and conflict. But no, character is developed from within no matter the outside world. Honour, integrity, dignity, kindness, humility, wisdom… and love. Every man has these qualities born in him - thus is the human race - and it is up to him, and him alone, whether or not to magnify these qualities to the best of his ability. To do this is through the choices he makes, everyday choices. Sure, it helps if he had great people around him that allowed him to develop those qualities growing up… but, the human spirit is mighty and these qualities can be developed no matter the circumstance a man is born into. Thus, a real man does all within his power to be the best self he can be with his lot.

Women don’t want perfect men, they want the perfectly imperfect... the men who not only wish they could be better but the ones who strive every day to become.

There is nothing more attractive than a man who not only magnifies his intellect, but his heart and soul too.

That has to be one of the best responses I've ever read on Lit.

 

[Chris_Michael]

That has to be one of the best responses I've ever read on Lit.

Yes, it was a very well thought out response.

I really feel bad for people who are stuck in unhappy marriages. I mean, prior to the internet, it was expected of both genders to marry. That societal pressure really ruined people's lives.

That said, I really wish we could find a way to put a dent in the amount of children that come from the poorer class. The only way to really do it is to educate and provide services to stop it (oral contraceptives, condoms, day after pill, and abortion).

I am the only person I know who is neither pro-life nor pro-choice. It may sound like a joke, but I'm pro-abortion. If people accidentally get pregnant, it hurts everybody. If someone is raped, well I'm not sure what to do. Case by case, I guess. I dunno.

 

[numeniusa]

Or, partly, it can be due to the fact that commitment isn't a fun word. LWolf might have been on topic. Who wants a long-term boring thing? This is why orgasms and exclusivity in marriage were invented.

Marriage is a construct of religion.

I think marriage should only be between the couple and not the State or Church. Today we have the luxury to marry out of love. To me, marriage is an outward expression of an inner commitment. It is an oath of the heart, a covenant of the soul.

This is an interesting question. I've just picked out a couple of quotes from previous responses (apologies for the snipping).

I'm an atheist, so my (civil) marriage was never anything to do with church, and not actually that much to do with state either, I think. I met a man who I felt differently about to any I'd been with before, and I wanted to have an outward expression of that difference. I was very sure I didn't want to reproduce, so there would never be a 'product' of our union to record it, and so I liked the idea that our choice to be bound together at that time would be recorded forever in the register of such things in my country. Him being divorced and me being post a nine-year monogamous relationship, neither of us claimed it would be forever, how could we after our previous experiences, but so far it's going well, nearly twenty-five years on.

I do think though that marriage in the sense of a civil state is what you want it to be. You only have to look at the happy marriages enjoyed by various Litsters (and there are lots of them, you just have to look). Although there are common factors, there are huge differences in the ways they are conducted. Some are utterly monogamous, some are utterly polygamous, some (like my own) occasionally extend a welcome into the bedroom to a third party, some are deliberately one-sidedly polygamous, because that's what both parties want and enjoy.

That's the common factor, that a couple choose for themselves what they want their marriage to be and how their commitment works for them.

 

[RubenesqueAphrodite]

Marriage is what the two involved make of it..
Church nor society should have any say in how that plays out.

If you're unhappy though, don't continue to try to ride that bronco. You can make up any number of excuses to stay in an unsatisfactory situation, but just realize you're acknowledging that you're gonna continue in your status quo.
Don't bitch and whine about it. Do something.

That said, again..it takes both parties in a relationship to make it work. If polyamory is what it's going to take to make that square peg fit into the round hole, at least be upfront with each other about it. The "don't ask don't Tell" approach annoys the crap out of me..

Even so, I admit I'm an odd bird..
So I'll shut up .lol