Question about religion from a "breeder"

[brioche]

Hello.

Sorry if this is the wrong place, but I'm really not sure how else to get the information I need.

I'm a Christian. I believe in God and that Jesus died on the cross, etc. and that baptism is important. I do not, however, believe that everything in the Bible is gospel truth.

I want to attend a Church, but I don't think that I can in conscience attend one that believes or states homosexuality is wrong. I was attending a Baptist Church, but once I realized that cousins on both sides (one is gay, one had a sex change) wouldn't be truly welcome there I left.

Is there a religion out there that is Christianity but doesn't condemn GLBTQ people? (Ordained women would also be good). I investigated the Unitarians, but they don't believe in baptism or that Jesus was the Son of God.

Any suggestions would be welcome.

And Etoile, if this is in the wrong place, just kick it on over to where it belongs (just so long as I can find it)

brioche

 

[Equinoxe]

I know that the United Church of Christ is generally accepting of gay and lesbian members and for the most part do accept the issues you raised in concern. They are decentralised, but they recognise the authority (although not in a literal fashion) of the Bible and affirm the creeds of the Ecumenical Councils, by and large, which means they recognise the divinity of Jesus. There are, as with any group, those who hold different views, and the UCC has a range from liberal to conservative in that sense, but they are by and large pro-GLBTQ.

Here is, for example, the Statement of Faith of the United Church of Christ, as copied from their site:
We believe in God, the Eternal Spirit, Father of our Lord Jesus Christ and our Father, and to his deeds we testify:

He calls the worlds into being, creates man in his own image and sets before him the ways of life and death.

He seeks in holy love to save all people from aimlessness and sin.

He judges men and nations by his righteous will declared through prophets and apostles.

In Jesus Christ, the man of Nazareth, our crucified and risen Lord, he has come to us and shared our common lot, conquering sin and death and reconciling the world to himself.

He bestows upon us his Holy Spirit, creating and renewing the church of Jesus Christ, binding incovenant faithful people of all ages, tongues, and races.

He calls us into his church to accept the cost and joy of discipleship, to be his servants in the service of men, to proclaim the gospel to all the world and resist the powers of evil, to share in Christ's baptism and eat at his table, to join him in his passion and victory.

He promises to all who trust him forgiveness of sins and fullness of grace, courage in the struggle for justice and peace, his presence in trial and rejoicing, and eternal life in his kingdom which has no end.

Blessing and honor, glory and power be unto him.

Amen.

 

[brioche]

I know that the United Church of Christ is generally accepting of gay and lesbian members and for the most part do accept the issues you raised in concern. They are decentralised, but they recognise the authority (although not in a literal fashion) of the Bible and affirm the creeds of the Ecumenical Councils, by and large, which means they recognise the divinity of Jesus. There are, as with any group, those who hold different views, and the UCC has a range from liberal to conservative in that sense, but they are by and large pro-GLBTQ.

Here is, for example, the Statement of Faith of the United Church of Christ, as copied from their site:
We believe in God, the Eternal Spirit, Father of our Lord Jesus Christ and our Father, and to his deeds we testify:

He calls the worlds into being, creates man in his own image and sets before him the ways of life and death.

He seeks in holy love to save all people from aimlessness and sin.

He judges men and nations by his righteous will declared through prophets and apostles.

In Jesus Christ, the man of Nazareth, our crucified and risen Lord, he has come to us and shared our common lot, conquering sin and death and reconciling the world to himself.

He bestows upon us his Holy Spirit, creating and renewing the church of Jesus Christ, binding incovenant faithful people of all ages, tongues, and races.

He calls us into his church to accept the cost and joy of discipleship, to be his servants in the service of men, to proclaim the gospel to all the world and resist the powers of evil, to share in Christ's baptism and eat at his table, to join him in his passion and victory.

He promises to all who trust him forgiveness of sins and fullness of grace, courage in the struggle for justice and peace, his presence in trial and rejoicing, and eternal life in his kingdom which has no end.

Blessing and honor, glory and power be unto him.

Amen.

Thanks, sounds like that's what I'm looking for . My brother was going on about Hindu Christians or some such...

brioche

 

[Equinoxe]

Thanks, sounds like that's what I'm looking for . My brother was going on about Hindu Christians or some such...

brioche

You're quite welcome.

 

[~hellbaby~]

Hello.

Sorry if this is the wrong place, but I'm really not sure how else to get the information I need.

I'm a Christian. I believe in God and that Jesus died on the cross, etc. and that baptism is important. I do not, however, believe that everything in the Bible is gospel truth.

I want to attend a Church, but I don't think that I can in conscience attend one that believes or states homosexuality is wrong. I was attending a Baptist Church, but once I realized that cousins on both sides (one is gay, one had a sex change) wouldn't be truly welcome there I left.

Is there a religion out there that is Christianity but doesn't condemn GLBTQ people? (Ordained women would also be good). I investigated the Unitarians, but they don't believe in baptism or that Jesus was the Son of God.

Any suggestions would be welcome.

And Etoile, if this is in the wrong place, just kick it on over to where it belongs (just so long as I can find it)

brioche

I like a non denominal church but I found this link
maybe it will help.

 

[CuriousNiceGuy]

I never gave too much credit to religion.
You are a Christian?What type of Christian?(probably katholic)
I'm christian orthodox, and I don't recall anything against homosexuality, but even if it did say that it was not accepted, I wouldn't really care that much.
(I like to think about life/religion and such things before accepting them..).So if God does exist, he must be caring for the world and the beings on it.
God pretty much loves all of his children(accept the reeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeally bad ones).I would think that he wouldn't be narrow-minded!He IS God after all

Btw, sorry if you will feel offended, but I can't understand how can someone think that the Pope is god's representative..and what he says is always right?He is a human after all.And all humans make mistakes..

 

[MintSoda]

You might look into the Quakers. They're a lot more biblically scholarly than other factions so they actually go around looking for the meaning of God rather than trying to attatch their own morality to select bible verses.

For anyone who doesn't know this homosexuality is mentioned only twice in the bible, although Christian fundamentalists would have you believe otherwise. In the Old Testament there is a single passage in Leviticus denouncing male/male sexual relationships, but if you read the rest of the book of Leviticus you'll also find that not two pages away they also say wearing mixed cloth is a sin and cooking in mixed metal pots is a sin...so I'm not sure living your life by Leviticus is really all that realistic.

The second mention is in the New Testament and I believe it was in one of Paul's writings after Jesus's death. He actually is dealing with female/female relationships and doesn't attatch his opinion to God at all. He says that female/female sexual relationships might have a negative impact on Christian proliferation. That's it. He doesn't say it's morally bankrupt, he doesn't say it's a sin, he doesn't say God told him to strike down lesbians, he simply states that he is concerned it would have a negative impact on breeding new Christians when they needed new Christians most.

For most so called "Christians" it has become more a political hot button and a reason to exclude and feel morally superior although I doubt any of them could whip out their bible and point to the places homosexuality is condemned or in what context. You may have to take it on a church by church basis and ask the church elders/ministers/reverened/priest/whatever what their take is.

 

[Equinoxe]

You might look into the Quakers. They're a lot more biblically scholarly than other factions so they actually go around looking for the meaning of God rather than trying to attatch their own morality to select bible verses.

I considered suggesting the Quakers, but there are several issues there which didn't seem to fit. Firstly, the Quakers are quite varied in position and many Quaker groups are generally anti-GLBTQ; however, many, even theologically Conservative ones, are quite accepting of Gay and Lesbian members. Having said that, Quakers don't practice baptism, they believe in inward baptism of the spirit rather than baptism by water.

 

[gypsywitch]

Our Unitarian church which we attend just a few times a year is a supplemental form of spiritual education for my daughter who just turned six. We also attend a Pagan Community group and "hippie" festivals.

As an emerging reader she was very interested in last Christmas' Unitarian service program and we worked on reading it together. On the back of the program was a large paragraph in bold type that explained that anyone harassing gays, lesbians, bi-sexual, and trans-gender church members would be forcibly removed from the church by the police.

The ultimate lesson that she learned from this was very sad and everyone in the seats around us heard me explaining about how there are some very mean people in the world who like to say out loud that they don't like other people and they want to hurt other people's feelings to try to make them change or go away.

Our discussion was not about 'what is it to be Gay' and she was genuinely scared to be in a CHURCH where mean people might be hauled away by the cops. A tough lesson in a real world. She does not seem to be pondering any thoughts about sexual activity between same-sex partners and what that must be like, but those questions will come and they will be answered honestly.

Being north of San Francisco has given her the opportunity to see all types of people behaving in loving ways, especially lesbians with children. At age six she now understands that some people like to dress up in different clothes to make them feel happy. I myself am a performer, and work with farm animals and a big garden here so she and I wear our cowboy clothes some days and our dancing dresses other days.

 

[onceburned]

As Equinoxe mentioned, the United Church of Christ is a large, gay-friendly denomination in the U.S. If a person is in Canada, they might want to check out the United Church which is also progressive on GLBT issues.

Btw, sorry if you will feel offended, but I can't understand how can someone think that the Pope is god's representative..and what he says is always right?

No, we Catholics do not believe the Pope is always right. We do believe that when he speaks ex cathedra on matters of faith and morals that his pronouncements are infallible guidelines. However, Popes have only explicitly invoked the doctrine of infallibility three or four times.

He is a human after all.And all humans make mistakes..

Yes, absolutely! We all make mistakes.

 

[brioche]

I never gave too much credit to religion.
You are a Christian?What type of Christian?(probably katholic)
I'm christian orthodox, and I don't recall anything against homosexuality, but even if it did say that it was not accepted, I wouldn't really care that much.
(I like to think about life/religion and such things before accepting them..).So if God does exist, he must be caring for the world and the beings on it.
God pretty much loves all of his children(accept the reeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeally bad ones).I would think that he wouldn't be narrow-minded!He IS God after all

Btw, sorry if you will feel offended, but I can't understand how can someone think that the Pope is god's representative..and what he says is always right?He is a human after all.And all humans make mistakes..

No, I'm not a Catholic, I'm agnostic and trying to find a church that fits my views. I specifically asked the Baptist minister the Church's position on gays and he said something to the effect of, "I don't have a problem with gays, and I have friends who are gay, but they would not be allowed to be members of the Church if they were sexually active."

I'm always bugging my brother about the Pope thing - he is a Catholic - and he gave me pretty much the same answer that onceburned gave you.

That link was very informational, hellbaby, thanks a lot.

MintSoda, that's exactly my problem - I don't believe the Bible in toto, and even if I did most of what is ascribed to it isn't actually said. I'm looking for a Church that feels the same. My mum, who is/was Catholic, told me she believes the Bible is allegorical and I've always felt the same.

I think I'm going with the United Church - there's one about a kilometre from here. My brother (who is either a pagan or a Wiccan - he's a reticent kind of guy) also suggested United (once I rejected Hindu Christianity or whatever it was), so it seems to be the best option. Plus I don't know if there are any Quaker denominations around here, and if there are I don't know their position.

gypsywitch, congratulations on raising your daughter in a considerate and socially responsible way, and it is regrettable but unavoidable that she realize that there are people like that in the world.

brioche

 

[Etoile]

Howdy, Brioche! This is absolutely the perfect place for such a thread. I was raised Unitarian Universalist so I am pretty knowledgable about that, but you said you've checked them out already. UUism allows people to believe whatever they want, so you would be free to believe in Jesus as the son of God etc, but you're right that it's not an institutionalized belief. I'm glad you checked it out though!

 

[brioche]

Howdy, Brioche! This is absolutely the perfect place for such a thread. I was raised Unitarian Universalist so I am pretty knowledgable about that, but you said you've checked them out already. UUism allows people to believe whatever they want, so you would be free to believe in Jesus as the son of God etc, but you're right that it's not an institutionalized belief. I'm glad you checked it out though!

Thanks, Etoile. What interested me about the Unitarian Church is that the one here had a big sign with "All Welcome" and a Pride rainbow on it. It's a great Church and I recommended it to my brother (the Wiccan/Pagan, not the Catholic) if he ever felt the need to congregate, but it's not quite in line with my own beliefs, and they don't baptize, which is important to me, so...I'm going to the United on Sunday. If it doesn't seem to be a fit my next stop will probably be the Unitarian Church.

By the way I noticed I used the non-word informational above. I meant informative. Come to think of it I think informational might actually be a word (informational text) but it's not appropriatefor this sentence.
brioche

 

[snowy ciara]

Hi brioche.

I was raised "High" Anglican by kinky parents and my dad's a priest. He has one kinked gay son, (though I'm unsure where he lies on the bdsm spectrum. We're not that close.) me, a bi masochistic sub, and one monk. (No, you don't have to be a Catholic to be a monastic.), as well as two "normal" guys, who are cheerfully being fruitfull and multiplying. I am not particularly religious, just spiritual. I'm also not evangelical.

But what you're searching for is out here. It's hard to find sometimes, but it's there.

 

[brioche]

Hi brioche.

I was raised "High" Anglican by kinky parents and my dad's a priest. He has one kinked gay son, (though I'm unsure where he lies on the bdsm spectrum. We're not that close.) me, a bi masochistic sub, and one monk. (No, you don't have to be a Catholic to be a monastic.), as well as two "normal" guys, who are cheerfully being fruitfull and multiplying. I am not particularly religious, just spiritual. I'm also not evangelical.

But what you're searching for is out here. It's hard to find sometimes, but it's there.

Thanks for the encouragement, ciara. Quite often i have been wondering WHY it is so hard to find what i'm looking for - surely i'm not the only one who feels this way? The responses I've been given here are wonderful, everyone has been so helpful!

This is an issue that is really important to me, and i finally made the decision about 4 months ago that a church that didn't respect *all* couples wasn't a place I wanted to worship at, even without being an official member of the congregation, because by doing so I was giving those views tacit support. It's been a bit of search to find what I was looking for, but you have all been really helpful. I'll let you know how Sunday goes - I'm hoping to have a word with the minister after services.

brioche

 

[DarkAurora]

Well, here in Tennessee, they do have GLBTQ churches. I'm not sure if they are part of the United Church of Christ. I don't church very often but I do sometimes go to this one non-denominational church with my grandparents called, "The Gathering" and the minister is accepting of gays(well, according to my grandma). My grandma said the minister said something about parents having gay children and that we have to accept our children even if they don't always do everything we want.

 

[robbie_boy1]

Gay Bishop in NH

Episcopalians approve gay bishop
Wednesday, August 6, 2003 Posted: 4:30 AM EDT (0830 GMT)


MINNEAPOLIS, Minnesota (CNN) -- The House of Bishops voted Tuesday evening to confirm the Rev. Gene Robinson as bishop of New Hampshire, making him the first openly gay bishop in the Episcopal Church's history.

 

[RickyRooster]

Brioche

I don't wish to sound flippant as this is really important to you. However, I would not get too hung up on the issue of baptism. Baptism is purely a symbolic ceremony signifying amongst other things a cleansing of the soul. If you find a religion and a church that is accepting of homosexual people I'm sure they wouldn't object if you wished to be welcomed into that church with a 'baptism' ceremony of sorts.

I'm probably very wide of the mark here. If so I apologise. Let's face it. As a lapsed Roman Catholic I shouldn't really be offering advice to anyone.

 

[robbie_boy1]

I don't wish to sound flippant as this is really important to you. However, I would not get too hung up on the issue of baptism. Baptism is purely a symbolic ceremony signifying amongst other things a cleansing of the soul. If you find a religion and a church that is accepting of homosexual people I'm sure they wouldn't object if you wished to be welcomed into that church with a 'baptism' ceremony of sorts.

I'm probably very wide of the mark here. If so I apologise. Let's face it. As a lapsed Roman Catholic I shouldn't really be offering advice to anyone.

another recovering Catholic amongst us.

 

[brioche]

I don't wish to sound flippant as this is really important to you. However, I would not get too hung up on the issue of baptism. Baptism is purely a symbolic ceremony signifying amongst other things a cleansing of the soul. If you find a religion and a church that is accepting of homosexual people I'm sure they wouldn't object if you wished to be welcomed into that church with a 'baptism' ceremony of sorts.

I'm probably very wide of the mark here. If so I apologise. Let's face it. As a lapsed Roman Catholic I shouldn't really be offering advice to anyone.

Actually, I'm not all that hung up about it - if I found a church that had all the other things I wanted, that would've been fine.

I actually didn't go until today, but I did go to the United church near here, and was physically led to the minister by a very nice old lady who sat in front of me. She was very sweet, found out my name, where I live, my occupation, whether I drive (?), and my marital status in about 2 minutes, and is also a former Baptist.

The minister:
1) is a woman
2) has no problem with ANYONE coming into the church, GLBTQ or straight
3) is willing to baptize adults , and will provide me with preparatory materials as soon as I want, but tells me it's not a requirement
4) during the part of the service where we greeted each other specifically came over to say hello and request that I sign the guest book.

They even serve free trade coffee after services if you should so desire. I'm a happy camper, told the sweet old woman I would be there next week, and collected a bag to fill with donations for the homeless shelter like everyone else (this made me feel really good because the little girl who decorated it was fretting that she wouldn't be able to give her bag to anyone, and in I walked, cutting my entry pretty close).

So it all worked out, and I'm very thankful for all your help.
brioche

 

[Mari J]

It sounds like things are working out well. I just want to say that I appreciate your sensitivity to the issue of inclusion as you look for a church.

 

[brioche]

It sounds like things are working out well. I just want to say that I appreciate your sensitivity to the issue of inclusion as you look for a church.

Thank you! I guess I just felt that my personal feelings about the GLBTQ community and my determination to provide a safe and positive space for those needing one should be mirrored by my church, and it was finding out about my now female cousin that brought things to a head. If she and her partner were to come visit me, I'd want to be able to take them to my church.

Also, I am a teacher, and how can I teach about and show inclusion of all types in my classroom and then go to a church that does otherwise? That smacks of hypocrisy. Currently I teach small children, so we do not discuss the issue of homosexuality, but I truly believe that if you raise children to be accepting of other cultures and other beliefs you have laid the foundation for an accepting and balanced life.

One of my colleagues thought I was going too far when I would only use Disney Princess stickers that did NOT have them in a passionate embrace with their respective prince, but to me it's all the little things that show how truly committed you are. Ahh, I'm blathering on now, but thanks again.

brioche