Question about commas and quotes inside of quotes...

[stevieraygovan]

Which version of this sentence is punctuated correctly...

Amy said, "I love my parents but they use lame expressions like 'far out,' which is so embarrassing."

...or...

Amy said, "I love my parents but they use lame expressions like 'far out', which is so embarrassing!"



Next sample sentence...

Amy said, "I love my parents but they use lame expressions like 'far out!' which is so embarrassing."

...or...

Amy said, "I love my parents but they use lame expressions like 'far out!', which is so embarrassing."



Last sample sentence...

Steve said, "Led Zeppelin's third album, the one with 'Since I've Been Loving You,' that's my favorite."

...or...

Steve said, "Led Zeppelin's third album, the one with 'Since I've Been Loving You', that's my favorite."

 

[HowMayIPleaseU]

first sample: first sentence (though it pains me, as I think it should be the second)

second sample: they're identical, but correct - exclamation is part of phrase and goes inside.

third sample: first sentence

 

[stevieraygovan]

first sample: first sentence (though it pains me, as I think it should be the second)

Why does it pain you for the first sentence to be correct, and why do you think the second one should be correct but isn't?

second sample: they're identical, but correct - exclamation is part of phrase and goes inside.

Look again. Both sentences include an exclamation inside. The difference between the two sentences is that the first sentence only contains one comma. The second sentence has two commas. The question is whether that second comma belongs there or not?

third sample: first sentence

So no matter what, the comma must always be inside the quote?

 

[sr71plt]

Which version of this sentence is punctuated correctly...

Amy said, "I love my parents but they use lame expressions like 'far out,' which is so embarrassing."

Neither is correct, but this one is better. There should be a comma between "parents" and "but" as well. Two independent clauses.

Next sample sentence...

Amy said, "I love my parents but they use lame expressions like 'far out!' which is so embarrassing."

...or...

Amy said, "I love my parents but they use lame expressions like 'far out!', which is so embarrassing."

Neither is correctly punctuated.

If you really want that exclamation point after "far out," make this read:

Amy said, "I love my parents, but they use lame expressions like 'far out!' I find this so embarrassing."

Last sample sentence...

Steve said, "Led Zeppelin's third album, the one with 'Since I've Been Loving You,' that's my favorite."

...or...

Steve said, "Led Zeppelin's third album, the one with 'Since I've Been Loving You', that's my favorite."

Neither.

Steve said, "Led Zeppelin's third album—the one with 'Since I've Been Loving You'—that's my favorite."

These are American style. The British may do different things with the quote marks.

 

[stevieraygovan]

sr71plt, a comma between "parent" and "but" isn't necessary there. It's dialog. The girl isn't necessarily stopping to pause there. Throwing a comma there actually changes the degree of her displeasure. It makes it more severe. It could be correct but it isn't mandatory there, especially if its inclusion alters the intended flow of the dialog.

Same thing with the second example. It's dialog. You're changing how she speaks by stopping and creating a whole new second sentence.

I'm only looking to sort out the correctness of the commas and quotation marks with these dialogs; I'm not looking for correctness of grammar. People don't generally speak using perfect grammar and writers who attempt to use perfect grammar for dialog often fail miserably in their main task, which is to create a good, believable story. People do use quotes within quotes though, even when they're not using proper grammar. That's all I'm trying to sort out here: the correct placement of the comma when there's a quote within a quote.

As for the third one, okay, again the comma needs to be within the quote. So there's my answer. Using commas rather than hyphens is by no means incorrect though. I completely disagree there. Either one is completely valid, either here in America or over in Blighty.

Btw, here's a really stupid question...

You wrote this: Steve said, "Led Zeppelin's third album—the one with 'Since I've Been Loving You'—that's my favorite."

How do I do those?? I mean, literally, what key is that on my keyboard? All I'm finding is -- and - and _ so how do I make that double sized hyphen you used there?

 

[sr71plt]

sr71plt, a comma between "parent" and "but" isn't necessary there. It's dialog. The girl isn't necessarily stopping to pause there. Throwing a comma there actually changes the degree of her displeasure. It makes it more severe. It could be correct but it isn't mandatory there, especially if its inclusion alters the intended flow of the dialog.

Same thing with the second example. It's dialog. You're changing how she speaks by stopping and creating a whole new second sentence.

Ah, no, you don't throw punctuation out of the window just because it's dialogue. You can punctuate it incorrectly if you like, though.

People don't speak the punctuation (other than Victor Borge, of course)--that's put in by the writer to make the dialogue understandable.

What a silly boy.

Btw, here's a really stupid question...

You wrote this: Steve said, "Led Zeppelin's third album—the one with 'Since I've Been Loving You'—that's my favorite."

How do I do those?? I mean, literally, what key is that on my keyboard? All I'm finding is -- and - and _ so how do I make that double sized hyphen you used there?

You can set your computer to provide the em dash (which is what this is) any time you key two hyphens in a row (I think you pull down the Tools menu to do that). Or you can pull down the Insert/Symbol menu and click on the em dash from there.

Or, if you have a computer with the extra number pad to the right on the keyboard, you can key Ctrl/Alt/hypen (from that number pad) at the same time and you'll get an em dash.

 

[Darkniciad]

Many word processors also have functions that can insert an em dash when you type a double hyphen ( if you want to use it on the story side of the site )

The Lit text processor doesn't recognize all of those, though. I know that mine always come out as double hyphens, so I end up replacing all of my em dashes with the html special character code before submitting.

—

 

[stevieraygovan]

Dammit, sr71, nothing's working. Any time I try Ctrl/Alt/hypen nothing appears. As soon as I press Cntrl/Alt the game is over because it then won't let me enter any other commands. Nothing appears on my screen.

As to your insistence that punctuation and grammar be correct even when writing dialog involving people who aren't speaking correctly, well, that sorta reminds of the famous Winston Churchill quip about the occasional absurdity of using proper grammar...

If one writes dialog with proper grammar and proper punctuation the reader is going to read it that way. If the character didn't say it that way then the reader won't know. They only read what's written and they read it exactly as it's written.

Nobody who's any good at writing dialog insists on proper grammar and punctuation in all cases. People just plain don't always speak that way so your choice as a writer is to be "correct" (and gawdawfully useless as a story teller) or sympathetic (and interesting.)

Try writing down an accurate depiction of two modern day teens who are talking to each other on the phone. They will butcher the language. There will be run on sentences, run on paragraphs, missing commas and every other sin under the sun. So, what, are you going to clean it all up for the sake of the Grammar And Punctuation Police? You wanna change the entire flow of their speech patterns, just so the rules aren't broken?

Good luck with that. I'll stick to writing 'em as they speak 'em. Getting the punctuation correct in terms of the quotes though, yeah, I have no problem with always getting that correct. That doesn't change what they're saying.

Btw, this discussion is beginning to clusterfuck my brain, big time. I just noticed that I spell the word "dialog" while you spell it "dialogue." Looking at 'em both, I like your version better. Suddenly my version looks weird to me, even though I know I've seen both versions plenty of times.

So, I went to look it up, to see if either version is wrong.

Nope. According to three different sources they're both correct. Still, I like your version better so I think I'll start using it.

Then there's "aureloa"...

...or is it "areola"? Or is it "aureole?"

Wtf! LOL!

 

[sr71plt]

Dammit, sr71, nothing's working. Any time I try Ctrl/Alt/hypen nothing appears. As soon as I press Cntrl/Alt the game is over because it then won't let me enter any other commands. Nothing appears on my screen.

As to your insistence that punctuation and grammar be correct even when writing dialog involving people who aren't speaking correctly, well, that sorta reminds of the famous Winston Churchill quip about the occasional absurdity of using proper grammar...

If one writes dialog with proper grammar and proper punctuation the reader is going to read it that way. If the character didn't mean for it to sound that way the reader won't knw. They only read what's written and they read it exactly as it's written.

Nobody who's any good at writing dialog insists on proper grammar and punctuation in all cases. People just plain don't always speak that way so your choice as a writer is to be "correct" (and nearly useless as a story teller) or sympathetic (and interesting.)

Try writing down an accurate depiction of two modern day teens who are talking to each other on the phone. They will butcher the language. There will be run on sentences, missing commas and every other sin under the sun. So, what, are you going to clean it all up for the sake of the Grammar And Punctuation Police? You wanna change the entire flow of their speech patterns, just so the rules aren't broken?

Good luck with that. I'll stick to writing 'em as they speak 'em. Getting the punctuation correct in terms of the quotes though, I have no problem with always getting that correct. That doesn't change what they're saying.

Btw, this discussion is beginning to clusterfuck my brain, big time. I just noticed that I spell the word "dialog" while you spell it "dialogue." Looking at 'em both, I like your version better. Suddenly my version looks weird to me, even though I know I've seen both versions plenty of times.

So, I went to look it up, to see if either version is wrong.

Nope. According to three different sources they're both correct. Still, I like your versin better so I think I'll start using it.

Then there's "aureloa"...

....or is it "areola"? Or is it "aureole?"

Wtf! LOL!

Last comment on this. A speaker doesn't speak a sentence of two independent clauses with or without a comma there. There's nothing in the way that one speaks that would negate using proper punctuation in that instance. Sure there are some differences in presenting dialogue--in grammar--but there are always proper ways to punctuate it. This isn't a case where it would be rendered any differently.

But if you want to leave it out, leave it out. It doesn't mean you are right to do so.

Why are you asking if you already know it all?

Can't help you with the Ctrl/Alt/number pad hyphen maneuver, either. Because it works. You evidently just aren't doing it correctly.

 

[stevieraygovan]

sr71, I wasn't asking, not about that. I only asked about the proper placement of commas and quotes within quotes. You went off on other tangents and I responded.

Having read your solutions to some of those sentences, yeah, I know exactly what I'm talking about. You changed the sentences; you changed the way they were meant to sound simply so they'd be "correct." I'm not going to do that, not unless it's an English paper. For a fiction story with real life dialogue I'm going to write it the way it's spoken.

I simply want the commas and quotation marks placed in the correct spots. That's what I asked about with this thread.

 

[snoopercharmbrights]

Which version of this sentence is punctuated correctly...
Last sample sentence...

Steve said, "Led Zeppelin's third album, the one with 'Since I've Been Loving You,' that's my favorite."

...or...

Steve said, "Led Zeppelin's third album, the one with 'Since I've Been Loving You', that's my favorite."

I would not do either. I would put:

Steve said, "Led Zeppelin's third album, the one with Since I've Been Loving You, that's my favorite."

... Then there's "aureloa"...
...or is it "areola"? Or is it "aureole?" ...

In strictly alphabetical order:

Areola
1 A small space or interstice, especially within body tissue such as bone.
2 A small circular area; specifically the area of pigmented skin surrounding a nipple.

Areole
A small area bearing spines or hairs on a cactus.

Aureole
1 The glory around the head or body in depictions of divine figures.
2 A halo or ring around the sun or moon.
3 figuratively Something that surrounds like a halo; an aura.

No other spelling variations are in the dictionary. (For the benefit of SR71plt - I use the Shorter Oxford.)

 

[snoopercharmbrights]

... Any time I try Ctrl/Alt/hypen nothing appears. As soon as I press Cntrl/Alt the game is over because it then won't let me enter any other commands. Nothing appears on my screen. ...

I don't know whether SR71plt made it clear (I have her/him on ignore) but the Ctrl/Alt/Hyphen command is specific to the later versions of MSWord (after 2.0). In MSWorks it is Alt/Ctrl/Num/hyphen and in other word processors it may or may not exist. In MSWordpad it does not exist. In WordPerfect it exists, but I don't know the command, sorry. In Open Office (Welsh language version) it does not appear to exist, or at least I can't find it, but I don't use that very often.

I hope this helps.

 

[stevieraygovan]

snooper, then there's this one, from Merriam-Webster:

aureola
One entry found.

Main Entry: au·re·ole
Pronunciation: \ˈȯr-ē-ˌōl\
Variant(s): or au·re·o·la \ȯ-ˈrē-ə-lə, ə-\
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English aureole heavenly crown worn by saints, from Medieval Latin aureola, from Latin, feminine of aureolus golden, diminutive of aureus
Date: 13th century
1 a: a radiant light around the head or body of a representation of a sacred personage b: something resembling an aureole <an aureole of hair>
2: radiance , aura <an aureole of youth and health>
3: the luminous area surrounding the sun or other bright light when seen through thin cloud or mist : corona
4: a ring-shaped zone around an igneous intrusion
— aureole transitive verb

Screw it. From now on it's areola for me!

 

[Sensualist2]

the first example, comma inside final single quote is the most common correct use.
But there are style books that diagree. Strunk & White, Chicago Manual of Style, IV ed. and the AP style book all will have variations. So, there is no absolute "right" answer.

 

[sr71plt]

the first example, comma inside final single quote is the most common correct use.
But there are style books that diagree. Strunk & White, Chicago Manual of Style, IV ed. and the AP style book all will have variations. So, there is no absolute "right" answer.

There are, however, better authorities depending on what you are writing. Strunk & White is for high school and college themes--it's not for the publishing industry at all. AP is for newspaper copy. APA is for scientific writing.

Chicago Manual of Style is the primary authority for fiction.

 

[driphoney]

There are, however, better authorities depending on what you are writing. Strunk & White is for high school and college themes--it's not for the publishing industry at all. AP is for newspaper copy. APA is for scientific writing.

Chicago Manual of Style is the primary authority for fiction.

I find this fascinating. Why would the rules of punctuation change according to interest/field? Is it because we are not French and have no official government system to dictate how we must use language?