Queerness--Nature vrs Nurture

[Esperanza_Hidalgo]

I'm curious, and have my own strong feelings that I think most will mirror. Are we born as queer? Be it transgendered, transsexual, homosexual, bisexual and all caveats between and associated. There's considerable information out about it, and I ask you to share any resources you know of.

This population may, or may not reflect the mood of the generally queer public, but I think it's fairly accurate. Please vote, I'm a wannabe shrink, and naturally curious about the human condition.

May your day and life be peaceful.

Espie

 

[haurni]

Any answer is going to piss somebody off.

I'm willing to bet that if you could create a society where people were raised to accept partners of either sex as normal, you'd find very few people who were exclusive to one sex. And of course there have been enough societies in which attempts were made to deny or even eradicate homosexuality, yet still it continues to exist.

I think, like most things in life, the answer has to be "both nature and nurture, to one degree or another, depending on the person". I don't think that any trait, save perhaps the most basic physical ones (eg. eye colour) are entirely genetic, and even those that are can probably be modified in utero or during the course of life to some degree.

 

[Esperanza_Hidalgo]

Any answer is going to piss somebody off.

I'm willing to bet that if you could create a society where people were raised to accept partners of either sex as normal, you'd find very few people who were exclusive to one sex. And of course there have been enough societies in which attempts were made to deny or even eradicate homosexuality, yet still it continues to exist.

I think, like most things in life, the answer has to be "both nature and nurture, to one degree or another, depending on the person". I don't think that any trait, save perhaps the most basic physical ones (eg. eye colour) are entirely genetic, and even those that are can probably be modified in utero or during the course of life to some degree.

Haurni,

This does pose a premise that tests. I'm reading Radcliffe Hall's The Well of Loneliness. One the the tenets of that great book is how the protagonist was raised in utero as a male. Her parents wished her to be a male, hence, upon birth, she always felt maleness. This story is reported to be based upon Hall's life, and seems to add some credibility to your in utero statement.

Think of societies where pedophilia and homosexuality were practiced (in this statement, I do not condone the former). The Romans (Or Greek--I get confused), I believe, often practiced what would be called taboos in our society, with older males partnering with young boys in mentorship. It was accepted, normal, sanctioned.

This supports to your supposition. Who is to say that if our society was to condone homosexuality versus heterosexuality that the reverse would be norm, and heterosexuality would be considered a taboo?

And Haurni, fuck the people who don't like it. Truth is truth, and some will forever dwell in self-denial and non-acceptance of what is evident.

 

[emap]

The romans and greeks practiced mentorships, the greeks were a little gayer with it so to speak, they condoned men sleeping with men and women sleeping with women, they just asked both sides to get together and have kids. The romans went a little in the closet with it, to them it was more of a don't ask don't tell situation.

It is actually rather funny, the only society that actively hunted homosexual men for quite some time was the Mongols. Not because it was wrong, because to them every man has to be a capable fighter, the women were free to sleep with each other though.

 

[delugewriter]

My best friend is gay. His sister is a lesbian. His other sister is bi.

My cousin is gay. His only brother is also gay.

I'd like to say that we can influence people to be open to feelings that maybe they would have ignored or never wanted to be open to, but we can't encourage a little boy to wear his mommy's makeup and think that he's going to crave cock when he's older because of it...

I've grown up a tomboy to the max. Although I could have sex with a woman easily, I'm not attracted to them sexually, so what would be the point? My mother let me be whatever I wanted to be growing up... People constantly think I'm a lesbian. I just give off super tomboy vibes, I guess... But I like boys so much, my favorite boys tend to be bisexual boys, because I love to see them even touching each other... If people treating me like a dyke because they thought I was one all along would have turned me lesbian, god knows I'd be licking the kitty these days...

So I'm definitely a fan of the "born this way" side. We've all known that person who has the young son who is maybe 4 years old and screamingly gay... He grows up to be a queen and we aren't surprised. You think anything the mother did to him as a younger child could have "turned him" that way? I think not.

Of course, there are the cases of victims who can't psychologically handle the touch of the gender of the person who hurt them, and suddenly start developing feelings for the other sex... So yeah, I'd say definitely in those cases, it's "nurture" over nature (although I'd hardly call rape nurture)... It becomes a mental block. Somehow the solace one finds in the gender who didn't hurt them becomes intense enough to be sexual...

I also have known parents who had sons who were super flamers as children, and as they grew, the mothers let them know they would be accepted and had a safe place no matter what happened to them, and those kids came out of the closet much younger than kids from an anti-gay family would... Would I say the parents encouraged what they thought could be a gay child? No, no mother was out there going, "Hey, what about that Bobby's ass, huh, Johnny?"... But if he was sensitive or creative or enjoyed doing things that other parents would call "sissy" it wasn't discouraged in his house... He was free to be himself. That kind of environment. I wouldn't say that's nurturing the child to "be gay" though... I'd say those are kickass parents who make their child feel loved and safe and free to be who he is. And isn't that what every child needs?

God, I need to shut up. It's late and I'm babbling.

 

[haurni]

Our basic attributes are determined by genetics, but how those genes are expressed is almost always modifiable by what happens in the environment. You've got 9 months to develop in the womb - if a particular gene that controls a whole bunch of other genes turns on or off one day earlier or later due to some level of hormones or whatever, that could have very subtle effects on how you develop. If your mother is the quiet type who listens to Chopin while she's pregnant versus being a party-animal who's out dancing to death metal, there may be some influence there (which is in principle measurable, but in practice forget it) that could affect certain aspects of your personality later in life.

Our developmental processes from conception onward are flexible and most things are neither white nor black. There is a predisposition toward heterosexuality in our basic makeup (otherwise the species would die out) but, like any predisposition, it can be altered. Because I don't believe there's a gene (or combination of genes) for homosexuality per se, I suppose I'm technically 90%+ in favour of nurture; if you consider only the post-natal environment as nurture, however, I might be willing to go down to ~60-70%, meaning that prenatal factors may be (but aren't always) significant.

Because it's not really a measurable phenomenon until years after birth (and even then, exactly what defines 'homosexuality' is up for debate) I don't think it's a question that can be answered at our current level of knowledge.

Note also that, just because I call anything that is strictly non-genetic 'nurture', doesn't mean I'm saying that a person's basic sexual preferences can be changed once established. You can certainly broaden your horizons, though!

 

[infinity706]

Well, we know it can't be totally nature because otherwise, identical twins would share the same orientation. It can't be all nurture, either, because identical twins do have a higher chance of the same orientation than fraternal twins or any other brothers/sisters. Part of it is also choice. Just look at all the moralists that have been caught having homosexual affairs and all the men/women that have nothing but opposite sex partners for years and then, hit middle age. I'd have to give part of it to pheremones. We know from nature that they can even entice female animals to mount a female in heat. Of course, I'd also have to say that the genetic part should make two women a more common senario, considering that men can potentially have any DNA a woman can, but women can't have a Y chromosome. I have a feeling, it, at least partly, has to do with someone's hormone balance that makes them more or less suseptible to desiring the same sex. Since estrogens and androgens cancel each other out to an extent, higher androgen levels in women and lower androgen levels in men would probably have some effect. It certainly is nowhere near a perfect predictor, though.

 

[delugewriter]

One the the tenets of that great book is how the protagonist was raised in utero as a male. Her parents wished her to be a male, hence, upon birth, she always felt maleness.

My dad wanted badly for me to be a boy - my mother didn't care as MUCH as he did. They were going to stop with two kids if I was a boy... BUTTTTTT I had a vagina so they went for three. Maybe there's some logic to why I'm such a non-girly girl then? But I don't feel transgendered at all. I feel like I have a hard time showing my emotions around others because of the way I was raised, not because I'm supposed to be more butch/manly.

 

[Esperanza_Hidalgo]

The Poll

We have twenty-six votes thus far, and the comments are gorgeous. Please keep looking and voting, and I'll report out and comment at fifty votes.

 

[Chrissi]

I would say almost all Nature.

I was raised in a very conservative, Roman Catholic household. Parochial Schools, Catholic High School, Catholic College. I didn't even know was homosexuality was until I was in HS. So I missed many of the early signs of my own orientation.

I did date 3 girls in HS, but for the most part they were very short lived (only a couple of dates each), and never sexual. I had no interest. All 3 were setups, that is, they wanted to date me and through a friend it was arranged.

Between my junior and senior year things changed, and quite dramatically. My summer boss had an end of summer pool party at his house. He would talk it up all summer, so I was looking forward to it. It was supposed to be a sleep over, and was just going to the be several crews that he had working for him. I got along with most of them, and like me most were my age or a little older (college). I was somewhat reserved as a teen, and as I mentioned I didn't date girls on my own, plus I never really clicked with the guys and all the chasing of girls.

So at the party, it was all just guys a few I didn't know, who I thought at the time were friends of other of the crew who came along. There was beer, but I really didn't drink. But during the party, I started to notice, that several of the guys were rather close to each other, and I recall that I went into the house at one point and saw two guys making out...wow, I was frozen just looking at them. I was fascinated (and I guess somewhat aroused) I recall my boss coming in at some point and stating that some guys were going home and some guys were staying over, and that the only place left to sleep was in his bed, if that didn't bother me. It didn't...what did I know, I was still a virgin, and a rather naive one at that.

At some point we ended up in his room, in his bed, and went to sleep. I recall a couple of things: One, being how excited I was that YES! somethiing was finally going to happen (It had never crossed my mind that this was another guy); and two, how disappointed I was that nothing did happen. As I said I eventually fell asleep.

What happened next though "changed" my life. I recall waking during the night to his legs rubbing mine, and not just light touches, but he had one of his legs over mine and was rubbing against me...I was not going to be disappointed again! Although I had no idea what I was doing, or what I should be doing, I recall turning into him, letting him know I was awake and willing, and well I will let you all use your imaginations for the rest.

I remember leaving the next morning so content. I had a big smile on my face. I recall my mom asking me later that day if I was alright. I didn't actually tell her (indeed didn't come out to her until many years later). I slept with my boss a couple more times, and I had absolutely no issues with some of the other guys knowing it. I was finally at peace....it was so liberating.

So, over the next couple of months and years, I sort of started putting two and two together and started figuring out all the past details of my life and things that pointed to my being gay.

I dated a couple of nice and cute guys in college....those were great times.

...fast forward...
they still are

So you can see were I am coming from: despite not being raised with any awareness of homosexuality, I was able to figure it out, just fine on my own. I am absolutely wired that way. I like, no love being gay. If I could choose, I would choose to be gay. It is who I am.

sorry for rambling
topher

 

[LunaticLorraine]

I've always believed that we're born this way.
Just like straight people think their born straight.
I grew up knowing I was into girls instead of guys.
I also think it could be hereditary. (Probably spelled that wrong, sorry)
Because on my Dads side, I have an Uncle, and two cousins who are gay.
And on my Mums side, I have a cousin who's Bisexual. Thats all I know of on her side.
So to me it makes sense that I am.
My opinions anyways

 

[Esperanza_Hidalgo]

Look at this please!

I'm bumping this to get votes in this poll, so please look, tell me your opinion and cast your vote. We are at 35, and I will report out a fifty.

Espie

 

[Vampire_Neliel]

Both

I'll mix some experience and supply a simple bash on nurture while I still do believe it is both.


When I was younger, 5-7 sometime I was more interested in girls (and I mean being one) than anything.. In 5th grade I was both attracted to and trying to emulate a couple big-chested twins from class. In middle-school I kept wanting to experience what the girls were and know what they were learning during sex-ed. I'd go to bed wishing I could be a girl, if at least for only a day. Come high-school I had fun making jokes that I'm a lesbian trapped in a guys body, etc etc. However, I never once had considered doing anything about it, telling anyone, or otherwise thinking it was abnormal and went on simply wishing and dreaming.

I think it had a lot to do with my dad, and how poorly he treats my mother, as what finally (with help from friends online pointing things out and asking why I wasn't getting a sex change) pushed me to actually do something about it. So by that account it took the Nurture to bring out what Nature had already pre-defined. Had it never been suggested as a possibility, I'd probably still be stuck hating myself and just enjoying online more than real life due to the mask of anonymity providing for the ability to be a girl online.

As for not being bi like my sister is, I think that has a lot to do with how my Dad treated me compared to her as apposed to how mother treated us. She, being younger, certainly got the best from both and was probably spoiled beyond belief.. to a point. I was of course expected to be the older sibling and so dad was harsher to me and mother compensated for it by being a bit nicer. So I'm sure that's part of what pushed me to being only all about the girls (that and how immensely grossed out I got from Hentai)



And because it annoys me so damn much when I hear it...
when a straight guy is trying to tell me, or any other lez that "You just need a good fuck to get your head on straight" there is a simple but apt reply... "You too just need a good fuck to get your head on straight" so yeh... some males just need to have it said to them.

I may joke all the time with a few female friends that I seem to be the only one with her 'wits about her' in reference to me liking girls; as well as mentions at religious people with "Adam was the rough draft created before the final, Eve" there-in-by girls are better, you should like them... and lastly with "males aren't needed anymore since we can make sperm out of bone-marrow" but I know full well that such things aren't going to change what the mental circuitry is already wild about.

I can say a guy is a 'pretty-boi' or whatever, perhaps much like a straight girl says about other girls, but I would never want to kiss them or even see anything unclothed below the waist. But looking at nude girls (not all of course) is still hot and turns me on.. something that never changed since birth, thus has to be a Nature item.



Lastly, for anyone that watches House.. last weeks episode is a prime example for the debate this thread would/will lead to... a guy that was supposedly gay (he denies it the whole show) and had had electro shock therapy to "straighten" himself out. So he has/had to deal with both his fiancée and his old boyfriend while he was in the hospital.

 

[Etoile]

I just want to mention that the ancient Greeks were not "gay" as we think of it. There was no "gay" at the time. "Gay" did not develop as a concept until the mid-19th century, actually. I studied this in school and I'd be happy to go toe-to-toe with anyone who disagrees.

 

[Esperanza_Hidalgo]

I just want to mention that the ancient Greeks were not "gay" as we think of it. There was no "gay" at the time. "Gay" did not develop as a concept until the mid-19th century, actually. I studied this in school and I'd be happy to go toe-to-toe with anyone who disagrees.

Your toes are too pretty to go at. Wait a sec

42 votes folk. I'm a little surprised at the results. I'll report out at fifty or so and comment. Interesting results and I enjoy the comments.

 

[infinity706]

I just want to mention that the ancient Greeks were not "gay" as we think of it. There was no "gay" at the time. "Gay" did not develop as a concept until the mid-19th century, actually. I studied this in school and I'd be happy to go toe-to-toe with anyone who disagrees.

Well, maybe the concept of gay didn't exist, but prohibitions against fucking the same sex existed before that. It was a capitol crime in Virginia back in the 1700s.

 

[HarlotMinx]

Please vote, I'm a wannabe shrink, and naturally curious about the human condition.

Av a zeat un my couch dear Fräulein un tell me about your mother.....

 

[Lady_Fiona]

I think its a combination of both. I have a number of gay/lesbian friends and I am bi myself. All of us without exception knew from an early age that we found the same sex attractive. It was also very difficult for us all to accept it at that time as we had all been brought up to think that being hetro was 'normal' and anything else wasn't. But that is an entirely different discussion.

There seems to be a high number of my co-workers that are in same sex relationships, be it casual or committed and so the conversation at 4am on a night shift has turned to this on more than one occasion.

The general consensus of all of us, hetro or otherwise is that generally speaking, we all knew what or who we were but shied away from it as we did not want to face the reaction of family or friends. But then, somewhere along the line we all came across someone who we trusted with our 'secret' and so the nurture began. Each of us was encouraged to be ourselves and admit who we were and what our sexuality was/is. From then on, we all became the people we are today, but we all acknowledged that without the help of like minds we would all be stuck somewhere miserable leading secret lives (or at least more secret than we already are).

So I am a definate believer in both.

 

[Esperanza_Hidalgo]

Av a zeat un my couch dear Fräulein un tell me about your mother.....

LOL! How much do you charge? Can I pay in pussy? You Minx!

 

[HarlotMinx]

LOL! How much do you charge? Can I pay in pussy? You Minx!

Dat brings up un verrrrrry interestinch questun. If ve put ze pussy in zee box.....

(on a side note, I don't know why but women with German accents always make me blush. You know how some accents just do it for people? Mine is totally German.)

 

[haurni]

Dat brings up un verrrrrry interestinch questun. If ve put ze pussy in zee box.....

No, thanks. I wouldn't want to find out until afterward what state that pussy was in...

 

[Stella_Omega]

I am pretty sure I voted 'both,' but that does not mean it's a fifty/fifty split. Nor will the percentage of influence be the same for all individuals.

Some of us could easily go either way-- or both ways-- depending on nurture. Some of us have absolutely no choice about our gender, no matter what our society tries to nurture into us.

I would say it is mostly nature, and that nature is inculcated while were are in the womb. If there is a genetic component, as some respondents have claimed, it might be in the mother's womb environment; perhaps some women have a genetic inclination to make more pronounced hormonal changes during their pregnancies.

 

[infinity706]

Well, I can't agree with the no choice thing in any case, though. If anything were set in stone, identical twins couldn't possibly go in different directions. Afterall, they had exactly the same genes and prebirth environment. It most likely has to be over half choice and nurture because a bit over half of GLBT identical twins have straight twin brothers/sisters. Some identical twins even have one that transitions to the other sex while the other is perfectly happy with how they were born.

 

[Stella_Omega]

Well, I can't agree with the no choice thing in any case, though. If anything were set in stone, identical twins couldn't possibly go in different directions. Afterall, they had exactly the same genes and prebirth environment. It most likely has to be over half choice and nurture because a bit over half of GLBT identical twins have straight twin brothers/sisters. Some identical twins even have one that transitions to the other sex while the other is perfectly happy with how they were born.

That's not what I meant by "no choice"

I did leave that comment pretty unfinished, didn't I!

But some people really have no choice at all in their sexual identity. Some people are more flexible. And I think much of that is set during prenatal development of the brain.... I'm too fried to go into details as to why I think that... which makes my opinion pretty suspect, I would say.

 

[infinity706]

Well, I don't really have any idea exactly how it works, either. For years, I thought gays and lesbians were gross and I never had any interest in guys. Then, I got propositioned by a guy, for some reason, went along with it, and somehow started being attracted to men as well as women. A lot of people say I'm open minded, but that seems kind of extreme even for me. If it had happened to someone else, I probably wouldn't have believed it. Is that what you mean by flexible, though?