Punching A Woman's Teeth Out(Abusive relationships from a man's perspective)

[Johnny Mayberry]

First off, let me start by saying that I think that the physical abuse of someone who loves you, and you supposedly love, is one of the most horrible things I can ever imagine(and emotional abuse is right up there too) I have nothing but sympathy for those who have gone through it, and deep admiration for those people who have gotten out, and not let it ruin their lives.

However, my curiosity about it currently runs in the opposite direction. I have recently been wondering about what goes on in the abuser's head, not only during each instant of abuse. In teh past, I have had an enormous temper, and have come close to hitting an ex-girlfriend or two. The difference between me and an abuser, I guess, has less to do with my restraint at those moments, and more to do with my reaction once the anger has faded.
When I feel like someone needs a good beating to set them straight, my next though is to remove the source of that feeling from my life. In other words, my question is, "If you want to hit someone(or actually do hit them), why in the rusty fuck would you want to continue being with that person?" If things get to that point, is there even a relationship there anymore?

 

[superlittlegirl]

I don't see abuse as a way to gauge the quality of a relationship. I understand where you're coming from with your line of questioning, but it leads back to the idea that women who are abused ask for it. I know that's not what you meant to imply, but if you follow your logic in reverse, I think that is where it will take you.

Abuse is an expression of a lot of wrong things, but few of them are actually about the person who is abused.

 

[Debbie]

From the little I have seen and experienced as a survivor of domestic abuse, it was all about power and being in control in my abuser's case.
This site sums a lot of what I have seen up into fewer words than I could.

http://alcoholism.about.com/library/weekly/aa990407.htm

My ex was almost never drunk and hated drugs.
He told a counsellor we went to that he realised
he loved me after the first time he beat me up.
That is still one of the cruelest things I have had
happen in my life.

My ex showed very little emotion other than anger
and came from an abusive family where his mother
left the home and her seven children to escape her
husband's violence. My ex seemed to loathe woman
and treated them like dirt. He still does. And is alone.

He still blames me for him hitting me, "I asked for it, I
provoked him" etc.

I am one of the lucky ones, who got out with my two
kids and now lead a good life with a cool guy.

 

[Johnny Mayberry]

I don't see abuse as a way to gauge the quality of a relationship. I understand where you're coming from with your line of questioning, but it leads back to the idea that women who are abused ask for it. I know that's not what you meant to imply, but if you follow your logic in reverse, I think that is where it will take you.

Abuse is an expression of a lot of wrong things, but few of them are actually about the person who is abused.

QWell, maybe i can't get a handle on it because I'm not an abusive person myself. On the other hand, whether or not the woman 'deserves' abuse(no one does, not even my ex-fiance, who I loathe beyond measure), my point was that if the man feels such a great urge, should he not remove himself from teh relationship? It isn't a question of what the abused person is or isn't doing, but how the potential abuser sees it. If I want to hit another person, for whatever they do, I feel that it is probably not healthy for me to be in that relationship anymore. Even if that anger is 100% in my own head, feeling that way isn't good for the soul. I figure I need to be away from that person until I figure out what is wrong with ME, to want to do something like that.

 

[Calamity Jane]

QWell, maybe i can't get a handle on it because I'm not an abusive person myself. On the other hand, whether or not the woman 'deserves' abuse(no one does, not even my ex-fiance, who I loathe beyond measure), my point was that if the man feels such a great urge, should he not remove himself from teh relationship? It isn't a question of what the abused person is or isn't doing, but how the potential abuser sees it. If I want to hit another person, for whatever they do, I feel that it is probably not healthy for me to be in that relationship anymore. Even if that anger is 100% in my own head, feeling that way isn't good for the soul. I figure I need to be away from that person until I figure out what is wrong with ME, to want to do something like that.

You're looking at it from a normal, healthy perspective though. you recognize that level of rage as an unhealthy, draining emotion.

The man who hit me didn't see it that way, and I'm betting most others don't. Debbie's right, it's about control. They don't see the person being hit as another human being, they see them as property. Destroying your own property is your perogative, right?

 

[horny_giraffe]

I've never felt that anyone deserved a good beating.

However, I can understand that someone might feel that the circumstances of their life are beyond their control. What would you do if you felt trapped in a miserable situation for the indefinite future? Would you break?

Have you ever felt stuck? In a miserable situation that you felt helpless to change (at least for the moment?) It's always easy to say "I'll resolve this, tomorrow. Just one more day." Like a person that resolves to exercise or quit smoking. "Tomorrow I'm going to start," You say. Pretty soon, you've "Just one more day"ed ten or fifteen years. The misery has snowballed into a mountain of pain. Nothing seems to matter, anymore. You might strike out, once, on an impulse. Your parter seems subdued, but he or she gets over it. It may not happen again for another year, but it happens again.

Guilt and pain bind you like chains.

 

[Johnny Mayberry]

From the little I have seen and experienced as a survivor of domestic abuse, it was all about power and being in control in my abuser's case.
This site sums a lot of what I have seen up into fewer words than I could.

http://alcoholism.about.com/library/weekly/aa990407.htm

My ex was almost never drunk and hated drugs.
He told a counsellor we went to that he realised
he loved me after the first time he beat me up.
That is still one of the cruelest things I have had
happen in my life.

My ex showed very little emotion other than anger
and came from an abusive family where his mother
left the home and her seven children to escape her
husband's violence. My ex seemed to loathe woman
and treated them like dirt. He still does. And is alone.

He still blames me for him hitting me, "I asked for it, I
provoked him" etc.

I am one of the lucky ones, who got out with my two
kids and now lead a good life with a cool guy.

Thank you for sharing the link, and your own experience. I am sorry for your pain, and glad that you have something better in your life now.
I guess abusers are more sick than I thought...I know I should know better by now, but hating someone and calling it love is something my I can't wrap my head or heart around.

 

[babydoll_73]

I understand what you mean Johnny and I agree with it. But people who abuse other people have a completely different mentallity. My brother sees it as I am making him hit me not as he has an anger management problem and needs help. I can't see my brothe anymore because I made the choice not to. All I have to do is disagree with him and he will beat my ass. But in his mind he is right and I am wrong.

But I am glad that you didn't hit them. Now if other people could just take a lead from that.

 

[Johnny Mayberry]

I've never felt that anyone deserved a good beating.

However, I can understand that someone might feel that the circumstances of their life are beyond their control. What would you do if you felt trapped in a miserable situation for the indefinite future? Would you break?

Have you ever felt stuck? In a miserable situation that you felt helpless to change (at least for the moment?) It's always easy to say "I'll resolve this, tomorrow. Just one more day." Like a person that resolves to exercise or quit smoking. "Tomorrow I'm going to start," You say. Pretty soon, you've "Just one more day"ed ten or fifteen years. The misery has snowballed into a mountain of pain. Nothing seems to matter, anymore. You might strike out, once, on an impulse. Your parter seems subdued, but he or she gets over it. It may not happen again for another year, but it happens again.

Guilt and pain bind you like chains.

I've been in exactly this situation....which is probably the genesis of this thread. I was in a relationship with a girl/woman who almost managed to be an adult, but at the first sign of trouble backslid into immaturity. I was working a dead-end job, 7 days a week, hundreds of miles from my family. It turns out that while I was working to pay the ever-expanding bills that she generated, she was using the money I gave her to go out on dates with another man. I have NEVER been so frustrated, furious, or close to the edge of the abyss, as I was in that situation.

Somehow, I got out of it, I managed to rebuild something approaching a normal life, and I am mentally and emotionally sound. It's just, sometimes I wonder what might have happened if things had gone much farther; could I have become abusive? That question haunts me on a regular basis.

 

[Debbie]

"Why batterers do what they do
Many see themselves as victims,
but for most it's an issue of control
By Bill Ibelle
Standard-Times staff writer

A little more than a year ago Harold, a 35-year-old accounting technician, jammed a pork chop into his wife's face as he sneered ``You disgust me.''

He never imagined the incident would lead to his arrest.

``It was a minor incident compared to the abuse I had done in the past,'' he said. ``I realize now that no abuse is minor, but then....''

The arrest didn't occur immediately. Over that weekend, Harold (not his real name) continued to berate his wife, silencing her with threats of additional violence.

``It was like terrorism in the home,'' he said.

On Sunday, terrified by the torrent of abuse, Harold's wife called the police. The cut on her face from the pork chop bone two days earlier was still visible, and that's all the police needed to make the arrest.

Harold received a six-month suspended sentence with the condition that he complete a batterers treatment program. He entered that program convinced he was a victim - a victim of an overzealous judicial system and of an overwrought wife.

In spite of the years of abuse, Harold didn't consider himself a batterer. In fact, he thought of batterers as the scum of the earth.

``Prior to recognizing my problem, I'd hear about abuse and think, `How can these guys do that - they're just a bunch of punks,' '' he said. ``I thought they had a big problem, but never once thought I had a problem too. Mine was just an incident. I wasn't an abuser.''

Experts say this type of convoluted reasoning is common among batterers. Most enter treatment programs heavily armored with elaborate denial systems designed to justify or excuse their actions.

Yet, these are the same men who beat their wives in front ofthe children, abuse them because of a cold cup of coffee, isolate them from friends and insult them so relentlessly that they begin to believe they are, indeed, unworthy.<

There are varying theories about what makes batterers tick.

One school of thought - the one that is in vogue at the moment - views batterers as hardened criminals who commit their crimes in a conscious, calculated manner to achieve the dominance they believe men are entitled to.

The other faction - while conceding this is a piece of the battering puzzle - believes abuse is the product of deep psychological and developmental scars.

Despite this fundamental disagreement, experts have reached a consensus on several common characteristics among batterers - they are controlling, manipulative, often see themselves as victims and believe that men have a pre-ordained right to be in charge of all aspects of a relationship.

``To me, it was my way or the highway,'' said Harold. ``(My wife) couldn't even decide for herself what to cook for dinner. She'd have to call me at work each day to ask me what I wanted to eat that night.''

Complete control is so central to the self-image of many batterers that even minor transgressions can trigger brutal abuse.

``It could be as small as not looking the way I wanted her to look,'' said Harold. ``It wasn't that she looked bad, it's just that it wasn't the way I wanted it to be.''

Treatment professionals agree that battering is largely a learned behavior. According to a recent survey of men in Maryland treatment programs, 75 percent of the batterers had witnessed abuse between their parents and half had experienced abuse themselves as children.

``The message these men have gotten is that they have to keep women down because if they don't, women will try to control them,'' said David Adams, a Boston-based psychologist and pioneer in the field of batterer treatment. ``Women are bitches, women are emotionally overwrought, women are irrational, women are sluts.''

To many of these men, it is a woman's duty to see to their every emotional and physical need. And when this doesn't happen - watch out.

Because most batterers grew up in environments where abuse was the norm, many batterers have no idea how their behavior affects others.

``I never realized that what I did and said had a long-term effect on her,'' said Harold of his years of physical and psychological abuse. ``I assumed I could just say and do these things to hurt her for the moment and then it just went away.''

As a result, treatment programs devote a great deal of time to driving home this point.

``When the father throws a plate of food at the mother, what does this do to a 3-year-old, to a 10-year-old, to a teen-ager just starting to have relationships themselves?'' said John Raposa, a counselor at the Portuguese Youth Cultural Organization (PYCO) in Fall River. ``How about when the father bangs a wall and the message is clear that this could be your head? Or when the father looks at his wife and that look alone is enough to make her shut up. What does this teach the kids?''

Batterers justify their violence and intimidation in a variety of ways. Some blame their abuse on booze or on their lousy childhood. Others deny it ever happened or minimize the incident to the point where it barely qualifies as abuse at all.

``I remember one guy who came in here insisting that his partner had accidentally fallen through a window when, in fact, he had stabbed her several times in the legs,'' said Allen Silvia, another counselor at PYCO. ``Another said his wife called to 911 by mistake - that she was trying to call her sister and dialed the wrong number.''

Patricia Holland-Heaps, co-director of the Center for Non-Violence in New Bedford, described an interview with the owner of a local construction company who insisted, rather convincingly, that he never laid a hand on his wife. Ms. Heaps then pulled out a copy of a police report indicating his wife had a broken nose and two black eyes - the result of a beating with the telephone receiver when she tried to call for help.

The fight erupted because dinner wasn't ready when the man arrived home from work.

Experts say many men relentlessly denigrate their partners to justify their abuse. Maybe he saw her laughing with another man at a party so he beats her for being a slut; or she came home drunk so he beats her for being a tramp; or maybe she didn't clean the house properly so he beats her for being a lousy wife and mother. In any case, the beating is for her own good - to make her shape up and fly right.

Like Harold, many men justify their violence by portraying themselves as the victim. Their partner ``pushed their buttons'' and therefore is responsible for her injuries because she goaded him into it.

The current rage among batterers is the ``O.J. defense'' - they didn't do anything so terribly wrong and the only reason they were arrested is that O.J. Simpson has turned society against men.

Whatever the justification, most batterers truly don't view themselves as the bad guy.

``They'll go rescue a woman in a bar who's being hassled by some guy and then go home and beat up their wife,'' said Beth Gerhardt, director of the Respect program in Attleboro and Taunton. ``A lot of the men are genuinely shocked when they're arrested. It's rare that someone comes into the group horrified at what they did.''

Another favorite excuse is that they ``lost control.'' The man claims to be cursed with a hair-trigger temper and insists his partner should have known better than to contradict him when he was angry.

``When they tell me they were out of control, I ask them if they've ever argued with their boss,'' said Ms. Gerhardt. ``They say `Sure.' So I ask them whether they've ever hit their boss. They say `Of course not.' ''

Claude Verdier, director of batterers' treatment at the Family Services Association of Fall River, uses another example to illustrate a similar point.

``Anger is not an excuse because anger itself, does not necessarily lead to violence,'' he said. ``Martin Luther King was an angry man, but he channeled that anger into fighting injustice. I use that example a lot.''

Because most men are very much in control, they often present a very different face to the community than they do at home.

``If they were sitting in the room with us right now, there'd be no way for us to detect that they had any problem at home,'' said Mr. Verdier. ``The idea that there's a type of man who batters just perpetuates the myth that this is a problem of the underclass. They're ministers and judges and lawyers and even therapists. No one's immune to it.''

According to David Adams of Emerge in Boston, batterers are often very respectable, even charming people. Studies have shown that domestic violence is found at all levels of society - from the crowded tenements to leafy suburbs; from barrooms to board rooms.< < < "
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

(Above from http://alcoholism.about.com/library/weekly/aa990407.htm

Click on 'Why batterers do what they do')
Apologies for the long c and p. I found it interesting reading and quite appropriate in my past case with my ex. Who is still in denial.
After the incidences of violence my ex would say, "Look what you made me do to you. You asked for it. Why did you do that? It's all your fault." Again and again and again, who was he trying to convince me or him as to whose fault these incidences happened?

Then there would be the odd 'kind' bunch of flowers/ puppy/ bottle of wine etc as a way of making amends.

My ex wouldn't walk away no matter what I did to try and calm him down. Once he was annoyed or angry there was nothing that
could stop him till I stood up to him. I had to take the power back and not let him control me anymore but I would not reccommend this in most abusive cases as the abuser would more than likely being really mad.

I realised my ex was a coward after I stood up to him and told him he would never hit me again without me retaliating in a physical way. (My knees were shaking but he was threatening to beat my oldest with a piece of wood and I would not let him hurt my kids)
He backed off and things changed for me from that day.
I saw him as the coward he truly was not the man I was terrified of.

 

[Minkey Boodle]

Now, I don't have any personal 'sperience with anything of the sort, but you speak of controlling your temper/self, and I think that those who do partake in the hitting either don't have self control or have a need to control someone else as well as them self. It can also possibly be a learned behavior.

Oh, and I hit back.

 

[Johnny Mayberry]

Another favorite excuse is that they ``lost control.'' The man claims to be cursed with a hair-trigger temper and insists his partner should have known better than to contradict him when he was angry.

Maybe that's my sticking point...I also know that I can have a hair-trigger temper, but when I feel that coming on, I go for a run or a drive, or lock myself in the basement with the stereo blaring until the mood passes. And at the very least, if I honestly believe that someone is provoking me enough that I think I should hit them, I want them as far away from me as possible. I don't understand all the wooing and begging for forgiveness. If I hate you, if you are the cause of so much anger, why would I want you around?

 

[Johnny Mayberry]

Now, I don't have any personal 'sperience with anything of the sort, but you speak of controlling your temper/self, and I think that those who do partake in the hitting either don't have self control or have a need to control someone else as well as them self. It can also possibly be a learned behavior.

Oh, and I hit back.

If necessary, I hope you hit back with a baseball bat!

I do worry about my temper, but from the examples that I've seen tonight, maybe I'm not as bad as I thought. My personal rage, which didn't overwhelm my better judgement, was based on specific horrific experience, not on a generalized haterd for women. I've had enough breakups where I just said, "you annoy the hell out of me, I'm packing my crap", without getting mad at all. This feels like a bit of a load off of me...thanks a bunch, folks, you are all good people...


..no matter what everyone says about you behind your back!

 

[Debbie]

Maybe that's my sticking point...I also know that I can have a hair-trigger temper, but when I feel that coming on, I go for a run or a drive, or lock myself in the basement with the stereo blaring until the mood passes. And at the very least, if I honestly believe that someone is provoking me enough that I think I should hit them, I want them as far away from me as possible. I don't understand all the wooing and begging for forgiveness. If I hate you, if you are the cause of so much anger, why would I want you around?

IMO domestic abusers don't hate their victims, they are using the violence as a method of controlling them.


quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Another favorite excuse is that they ``lost control.'' The man claims to be cursed with a hair-trigger temper and insists his partner should have known better than to contradict him when he was angry. "
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Part of the denial that they are abusive, laying the blame
on their victim. Like a child."She made me do it." "He started it."


http://www.umc-gbcs.org/oft3_feb2002.htm

"Men who batter may feel like they have no control over their behavior. However, they have total control over their violence. The “where, when, how, and why” of violent behavior involves choice. Most men who batter do not enjoy acting abusively. They do not lack morals or values. They are not evil or psychopathic. They have learned to make very poor choices that involve violent, abusive behavior. Men who batter can learn to make better choices. They can learn new skills to use instead of violence.

Most men who batter do not beat up their partners every day. Physical attacks are more or less frequent and dangerous, but abuse is abuse. Men who batter often act in controlling and intimidating ways (psychological abuse). Dominating and intimidating behavior is probably the “abuse of choice” for most men who batter. If you have ever acted in an abusive way toward your partner, you are a man who batters. This is true even if your violence is not intense or frequent."

I wrote a poem called Ultimate Control that summed in a very short way (Lol since I am longwinded) my experience.
There is a link in my sigline to my stuff at lit.

 

[Johnny Mayberry]

Wow...Thank you for sharing, Debbie, I don't have the words to thank you enough.

 

[Ms_Lilith]

I don't suppose I've ever been beaten in a relationship... I've been beat up, once, but that was the end of that. I have, however, had a partner attempt to control me. It was something of a long-distance relationship, and whenever I talked to my best friend on the phone, he'd start to yell at me, saying that I was 'wasting' our 'precious minutes' with her. Oh for god's sake. She's been my best friend for 17 years, he hadn't even been my bf for 17 months.

He bought me clothes that he wanted to see me in, criticized how I made myself up, monitored who I talked to, and would have just blown a fuse if he'd known about how much I flirt. He was the first person to rape me.. I lost my virginity to that. I never said a word, and continued to date him for some time after that, and even got engaged to him. But then I came to my senses, and broke up with him.

He was not violent in his sexual assault. He just purposefully took what I had refused to give him, as I had been waiting for marriage. I guess I just didn't know what to do with myself after that, so I stayed with him.

He would admit to you today that he is a controlling person. He would also admit that he has low self-esteem and anger issues, due to family problems his entire life. But he refuses to think about those problems, he refuses to change. He knew that he sought complete control over me, he never hid that fact. I guess that's what made him do what he did... maybe he thought that if he was my first, I'd want to be with him forever?