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[twelveoone]

As a public service:
From Merriam-Webster
Main Entry: cli·chéd
Pronunciation: -'shAd
Function: adjective
1 : marked by or abounding in clich és
2 : HACKNEYED

One entry found for cliché.
Main Entry: cli·ché
Variant(s): also cli·che /klE-'shA, 'klE-", kli-'/
Function: noun
Etymology: French, literally, printer's stereotype, from past participle of clicher to stereotype, of imitative origin
1 : a trite phrase or expression; also : the idea expressed by it
2 : a hackneyed theme, characterization, or situation
3 : something (as a menu item) that has become overly familiar or commonplace

to those good writers I have marked down for I apologise, to those that keep insisting - I will comment.

This is (and it is my fucking opinion) the worst sin in poetry, AND one of the easiest things to turn around, try it, just requires a little thought.

Next def will be pander

 

[Senna Jawa]

This <cliche-sj> is (and it is my fucking opinion) the worst sin in poetry, AND one of the easiest things to turn around, try it, just requires a little thought.

Your opinion is not "fucking" but boring, cliched, irrelevant and even false.

Cliche is relatively easy to fix perhaps in one case only: when the author & the poem are both good but the author was either careless or believed that in her/his case the cliche somehow will not act as a cliche. Then it is time to remind the author that a cliche is a cliche and that it's better to put an extra effort into replacing it with something fresh, something relevant. In reality it is often still difficult. Often a big chunk of the poem has to be reworked anew. Only when you are truly lucky then you will find (sometimes after years) a lucky and simple solution. There are no rules.

Otherwise (when the author & the poem are not good) the cliche problem is about to be impossible to correct. The main source of cliches is the lack of any reason of having a poem at all. Then it is impossible to avoid a cliche after a cliche. The poem should be just junked, should end up in a garbage can.

Besides the tired phrases which were used a zillion of times, every general (generic, abstract) phrase automatically sounds cliched even when used for the first time. General thoughts and generic feelings as a rule are all cliched. Thus, despite your claim that cliches are easy to fix, most of the time they are impossible to fix--the poem should be just junked, should end up in the garbage can.

BTW, the easiest way to please your customers is to serve them cliches, as proven by the Hallmark poetry, as practised by the majority of Literotica authors and seen in the majority of their writings. Your "customer" philosophy of poetry is pathetic.

 

[SeattleRain]

The more I read poetry, the more I find cliche in just about everything.

These words make me cringe, they are so often used:

gossamer (worst when paired with wings)
alabaster (worst when paired with skin)

damn there was another one on the tip of my brain but it has gotten lost in the worms again.

 

[SeattleRain]

I think that the use of cliche and overused ideas are an important step in the development of every human being, especially writers.

They are not cliche or overused to the individual. Take high school graduation speeches or prom themes. They are always the same thing, the same discoveries made again and again. But they are new to the young adults.

I remember as a freshman, being fascinated by the idea of "am I a human dreaming I am a butterfly or am I a butterfly dreaming I am human?" and the idea of the butterfly in China making my windchimes ring or whatever....

Was I pathetic? Not really. I was learning. We have to evolve. Everyone is evolving. It does not make sense to be impatient and bitter towards those who are at a step that we have already taken, and it is humbling to always remember that there are those who are watching us struggle through the steps that we climb.


The idea of a sandpiper chasing the waves as a metaphor
looking in the mirror and not recognizing what you see
bluebells and bluebottles hanging their heads...

Going through these stages is okay. It helps us define ourselves as writers. Even the most experienced writer is going to say things that it seems we have heard before.

I think about all of this and have to remind myself why I continue to write, it has already been said, by others throughout time, in every language, and better...

It is about process. When we get stuck on a step and do not move forward, that is when trouble starts.

 

[Tzara]

A fading chalk outline is all that remains of the poem that was originally here.

 

[bogusbrig]

BTW, the easiest way to please your customers is to serve them cliches, as proven by the Hallmark poetry, as practised by the majority of Literotica authors and seen in the majority of their writings. Your "customer" philosophy of poetry is pathetic.

Maybe it is just a lack of education or just plain laziness why cliche after cliche is used and obviously appreciated. But there is nothing pathetic with the ambition of wanting people to serve their customers with quality goods, even if they don't like it. Though I agree that often it is easier to scrap a poem than to correct a cliche.

One of the main flaws one sees on these threads and which appears to be the reason why people are often writing poems full of cliches is that many people appear to be generally not well read and don't appear to see the value or need of reading more.

 

[Liar]

BTW, the easiest way to please your customers is to serve them cliches, as proven by the Hallmark poetry, as practised by the majority of Literotica authors and seen in the majority of their writings. Your "customer" philosophy of poetry is pathetic.

Depends on who the customer is. If I wrote a poem for you to read, and served you a smorgasboard of cliché, you wouldn't be pleased. Wouldja?

My "customer" (the generic reader I imagine writing for) is not a fan of hackneyed and overused phrasing either. (Although my stuff is definitely not cliché free, but that's why I'm an amateur.) I know that some readers here on Literotica might buy into the Hallmark thing, but it's not for them I write. If those "bad" readers see my poems and like them, fine. If they don't, then I don't really care.

The literary cliché does however have a strange mass market appeal that I'll never understand. Just like country music. I'll never understand how anyone can take either seriously.

 

[wildsweetone]

it takes work to get one's mind past the cliches. i want to improve, so i have to work.

probably my old stuff is full of cliches. my 'lack of education' is obvious. but i'm learning and i've found a technique that seems to work for me to get past them. hopefully it'll eventually get me where i want.

there's a whole world out there beyond the cliche and it's a heck of a lot of fun glimpsing it.

 

[SeattleRain]

Maybe it is just a lack of education or just plain laziness why cliche after cliche is used and obviously appreciated. But there is nothing pathetic with the ambition of wanting people to serve their customers with quality goods, even if they don't like it. Though I agree that often it is easier to scrap a poem than to correct a cliche.

One of the main flaws one sees on these threads and which appears to be the reason why people are often writing poems full of cliches is that many people appear to be generally not well read and don't appear to see the value or need of reading more.

Many cliche's get that way because they are GOOD... they are appealing in the first place, the thing that makes them bad is not their inherent worth, it is their over-familiarity. So to those who are not familiar with the phrases, ideas, wordings etc it is not cliche and has the same appeal that it did when it first got popular.


I remember someone said that Shakespeare was filled with cliche. Well damn it, he was the first one to write it, was not cliche at the time.

Same with the bible.

 

[RhymeFairy]

I think that the use of cliche and overused ideas are an important step in the development of every human being, especially writers.

They are not cliche or overused to the individual. Take high school graduation speeches or prom themes. They are always the same thing, the same discoveries made again and again. But they are new to the young adults.

I remember as a freshman, being fascinated by the idea of "am I a human dreaming I am a butterfly or am I a butterfly dreaming I am human?" and the idea of the butterfly in China making my windchimes ring or whatever....

Was I pathetic? Not really. I was learning. We have to evolve. Everyone is evolving. It does not make sense to be impatient and bitter towards those who are at a step that we have already taken, and it is humbling to always remember that there are those who are watching us struggle through the steps that we climb.


The idea of a sandpiper chasing the waves as a metaphor
looking in the mirror and not recognizing what you see
bluebells and bluebottles hanging their heads...

Going through these stages is okay. It helps us define ourselves as writers. Even the most experienced writer is going to say things that it seems we have heard before.

I think about all of this and have to remind myself why I continue to write, it has already been said, by others throughout time, in every language, and better...

It is about process. When we get stuck on a step and do not move forward, that is when trouble starts.

Bravvoooo !!! Ditto ~

I know I use the same theme and wording at times,
but sometimes it just fits. Until I find the wording
that makes it so much better then it will have to do,
for now. This does not mean I am not growing as a poet,
or that I do not care. I am still a very Young poet
... if that, but it is the path we choose, and the journey
that gets us there ... that is how we learn.

Just me ...

Corny to some, just MY opinion ...



Happy Writing ~

 

[twelveoone]

Your opinion is not "fucking" but boring, cliched, irrelevant and even false.

Cliche is relatively easy to fix perhaps in one case only: when the author & the poem are both good but the author was either careless or believed that in her/his case the cliche somehow will not act as a cliche. Then it is time to remind the author that a cliche is a cliche and that it's better to put an extra effort into replacing it with something fresh, something relevant. In reality it is often still difficult. Often a big chunk of the poem has to be reworked anew. Only when you are truly lucky then you will find (sometimes after years) a lucky and simple solution. There are no rules.

Otherwise (when the author & the poem are not good) the cliche problem is about to be impossible to correct. The main source of cliches is the lack of any reason of having a poem at all. Then it is impossible to avoid a cliche after a cliche. The poem should be just junked, should end up in a garbage can.

Besides the tired phrases which were used a zillion of times, every general (generic, abstract) phrase automatically sounds cliched even when used for the first time. General thoughts and generic feelings as a rule are all cliched. Thus, despite your claim that cliches are easy to fix, most of the time they are impossible to fix--the poem should be just junked, should end up in the garbage can.

BTW, the easiest way to please your customers is to serve them cliches, as proven by the Hallmark poetry, as practised by the majority of Literotica authors and seen in the majority of their writings. Your "customer" philosophy of poetry is pathetic.

interesting, all those words to tell me, I'm boring, boring, cliched, irrelevant.
What''s your point?
The false part is quite debatable. Witness:

Unintelligent Design

Born under a bad sign, I guess.
When first he tried to soar,
His alabaster wings would not cup the air
Nor flex. He fell, and falling,
His gossamer skin he tore.

for the Dover, PA school board

I believe my use of the word "fucking" was correct.
We can debate this also:
Your "customer" philosophy of poetry is pathetic.

 

[twelveoone]

Hmmm, no Jawa
your directness is refreshing, amuses me.
come back, oh
Doyen of Dogma

tell me why
I should follow your star and arrive at the land of the dead.
There are no rules.
and not much consistency either

 

[bogusbrig]

Hmmm, no Jawa
your directness is refreshing, amuses me.
come back, oh
Doyen of Dogma

tell me why
I should follow your star and arrive at the land of the dead.
There are no rules.
and not much consistency either

With a strong opinion such as Jawa's I'm surprised you are having to wait with such impatience for a punch up 1201.

 

[Angeline]

With a strong opinion such as Jawa's I'm surprised you are having to wait with such impatience for a punch up 1201.

Senna's point, imo, is that if a poem is mediocre no amount of cliche air-brushing is going to make it a good poem. Makes sense to me. And I believe it was Thelonious Monk who said there are no wrong notes. Words are just words--none are off limits. Cliche becomes a problem if the writer has nothing to say.

 

[teacherman570]

But where does the limit of being cliche stop? Most ideas have been rehashed thousands of times in various forms, television, stories, poems, conversation. From the dictionary definition, most of the pieces that I've written (and read in various places) could be considered cliche, since I use themes that have been used over and over and over again. My work my be medicore to some, even most, but my work, in the most part is for me, not for others.

No doubt the majority of hardcore poets here would find fault in my work, but even if I would receive nothing but negative criticism, my work is still important and meaningful to me.

https://forum.literotica.com/showthread.php?t=374041

 

[Lauren Hynde]

I can see both points. 1201 was saying that clichés in poems are easy to overcome, and that is true. Senna said that clichéd poems are nearly impossible to fix. They're both right, in my opinion, and there was only a controversy because Senna misunderstood (severely) 1201's original post. They're talking about two separate things.

 

[SeattleRain]

I can see both points. 1201 was saying that clichés in poems are easy to overcome, and that is true. Senna said that clichéd poems are nearly impossible to fix. They're both right, in my opinion, and there was only a controversy because Senna misunderstood (severely) 1201's original post. They're talking about two separate things.

ha! if only this was not the first time that has happened on a bulliten board

it is the cause of 95% of all issues around here

 

[Tzara]

Since I haven't had my foot in my mouth for at least, well, twenty minutes or so, let me blather on about this for a bit.

OK, say you're teaching Erotic Poetry Writing 101 and some kid comes to you with some notes on the poem he wants to write:

I've got this really great idea for a poem. This guy hears a mournful bird call and it makes him think of his departed lover. You know, deep sexual longing and all that. I use some great words and images: the bird call is a "cry" and this makes the guy think of the wind "crying" as well. Pretty sad, huh? And, get this, when he's remembering his love, he remembers her "passion-dimmed eyes" and her "long heavy hair." Don't those phrases just rock? Whaddaya think?

Well, you're probably not overly optimistic about the promise of this as erotic poetry as it sounds pretty routine to you. I hear a bird call and I'm lonely. I think of her and remember her looking passionate. Been there before. But the kid hasn't been bad in the past and, though he's kind of an odd duck, he's got a charming Irish accent, so you tell him to go ahead and have a go at it. So he turns in this:

HE REPROVES THE CURLEW

O curlew, cry no more in the air,
Or only to the water in the West;
Because your crying brings to my mind
passion-dimmed eyes and long heavy hair
That was shaken out over my breast:
There is enough evil in the crying of wind.​

This is Yeats, of course. Is it great Yeats? Well, it ain't "The Second Coming," but it isn't trying to be either. I've always liked this poem, so I think it's pretty good. My professor in Irish literature several zillion years ago apparently thought it was good enough to assign it as part of the section on Yeats. I think it's more than just mopey old Bill sitting up late at night pining over Maudie Gonne and feeling sorry for himself.

But I also think that if you look at some of the basic components of the poem that they could be considered—especially if considered out of context—cliché. I mean, he uses "cry" or "crying" three times in a six line poem. OK, OK! You're sad!

So I guess what I'm trying to say is that cliché is not necessarily a bad thing in a poem. For one, it can help with understanding. With this poem I don't have to spend a lot of time trying to figure out what it's about—Bill is practically clubbing me over the head with traditional (hackneyed?) images of sadness, sexual desire, and emotional longing. So I'm left to focus on sound and how the images all come together. And that all works for me.

 

[Angeline]

Since I haven't had my foot in my mouth for at least, well, twenty minutes or so, let me blather on about this for a bit.

OK, say you're teaching Erotic Poetry Writing 101 and some kid comes to you with some notes on the poem he wants to write:

I've got this really great idea for a poem. This guy hears a mournful bird call and it makes him think of his departed lover. You know, deep sexual longing and all that. I use some great words and images: the bird call is a "cry" and this makes the guy think of the wind "crying" as well. Pretty sad, huh? And, get this, when he's remembering his love, he remembers her "passion-dimmed eyes" and her "long heavy hair." Don't those phrases just rock? Whaddaya think?

Well, you're probably not overly optimistic about the promise of this as erotic poetry as it sounds pretty routine to you. I hear a bird call and I'm lonely. I think of her and remember her looking passionate. Been there before. But the kid hasn't been bad in the past and, though he's kind of an odd duck, he's got a charming Irish accent, so you tell him to go ahead and have a go at it. So he turns in this:

HE REPROVES THE CURLEW

O curlew, cry no more in the air,
Or only to the water in the West;
Because your crying brings to my mind
passion-dimmed eyes and long heavy hair
That was shaken out over my breast:
There is enough evil in the crying of wind.​

This is Yeats, of course. Is it great Yeats? Well, it ain't "The Second Coming," but it isn't trying to be either. I've always liked this poem, so I think it's pretty good. My professor in Irish literature several zillion years ago apparently thought it was good enough to assign it as part of the section on Yeats. I think it's more than just mopey old Bill sitting up late at night pining over Maudie Gonne and feeling sorry for himself.

But I also think that if you look at some of the basic components of the poem that they could be considered—especially if considered out of context—cliché. I mean, he uses "cry" or "crying" three times in a six line poem. OK, OK! You're sad!

So I guess what I'm trying to say is that cliché is not necessarily a bad thing in a poem. For one, it can help with understanding. With this poem I don't have to spend a lot of time trying to figure out what it's about—Bill is practically clubbing me over the head with traditional (hackneyed?) images of sadness, sexual desire, and emotional longing. So I'm left to focus on sound and how the images all come together. And that all works for me.

I'm still trying to figure out where the cliches are in that Yeats. Don't some people have long heavy hair? (I do.) How else might one describe it to maintain the image? Weighty tresses of length? Yuck! And I rather like the image that "passion-dimmed eyes" evokes. I can't remember having heard that particular combination elsewhere--most people I know don't use the expression, but if they did would that make it bad in this poem? Maybe if I came from somewhere where the curlews were flying (I assume they are some kind of sea bird--I dunno, really), then it would be bad to use "curlew" in a poem?

I'm agreeing with you. Also, I love Yeats.

It all becomes a bit ridiculous. I refuse to put any word--and that does include "love," "soul," "bones," and "rainbow" on a no-no list. The problem isn't the words. The problem is when they're all jumbled together saying nothing--or nothing remarkable.

In my opinion.

 

[bogusbrig]

I'm agreeing with you. Also, I love Yeats.

Yeats does nothing for me, well he does, he actually makes me vomit. Does that mean the cliches don't work for me and are therefore bad?

 

[Angeline]

Yeats does nothing for me, well he does, he actually makes me vomit. Does that mean the cliches don't work for me and are therefore bad?

Well I could say there's no accounting for your poor taste, but I prefer to consider one's preferences in poetry subjective.

 

[darkmaas]

On matters of taste...

Now if this thread were about taste in ... say ... undergarments rather than poetry, I would strongly recommend the advice of SeattleRains who told me she has baskets of tastefulness.

Coming to the NuGuRu party next door? I'm told that EE is jumping out of the cake.

 

[Angeline]

Now if this thread were about taste in ... say ... undergarments rather than poetry, I would strongly recommend the advice of SeattleRains who told me she has baskets of tastefulness.

Coming to the NuGuRu party next door? I'm told that EE is jumping out of the cake.

I'm afraid ee and I are otherwise, erm, engaged this evening. I think Lit poetry party cake-jumping is a joy you need to experience, given that you were a mere virgin (for the second or third time, was it?) at the last one. Maybe you can borrow OT's spanker paddles.

And what do I know of such exotic tastes? I have to go make a lasagna.

 

[Liar]

And what do I know of such exotic tastes? I have to go make a lasagna.

Hmm, no, jumping out of a lasagna is not quite the same. You don't want to get béchamel in your hair, trust me.

 

[Angeline]

Hmm, no, jumping out of a lasagna is not quite the same. You don't want to get béchamel in your hair, trust me.

How do you know I don't look good in mozzarella?