Public schools....or not?

[LovetoGiveRoses]

I don't really agree with what he says, but it's both amusing and thought provoking.

Not 'public' schools
"First of all, let's get this out of the way in the first paragraph. They are not 'public schools.' They are government schools. They are owned and operated by government. Every employee, from the superintendent to the dishwasher in the cafeteria, is a government employee. So, let's call them what they are. Government schools.

"Being government employees, you would expect those who work in government schools to have the same behavioral characteristics as other government employees. You would be right. They react to the threat of privatization with the ferocity of a cornered bobcat and to the threat of accountability with the evasiveness of cockroaches.

"The truth, though, is that these are not so much schools as they are indoctrination centers. If your child is attending a Catholic school, you should expect that your child would be taught that the Catholics pretty well have this religion thing down cold. Ditto for a Jewish school, or one operated by a Christian fundamentalist church. Question: Will a government school be any different? Why would you expect a government employee in a government institution to tell your children that government is not necessarily the answer to every problem or critter that goes bump in the night?"

 

[Calamity Jane]

Todd?????

 

[LovetoGiveRoses]

There are a lot of hardworking dedicated government employees. Almost every teacher I know is hard working and dedicated also. Although, I must admit, there are some that aren't so strong, on the whole though, most are top notch.

I do think that there are some structural problems with our education systems. The scores and acheivements of our many of our students are lacking. What can be done to correct this problem?

 

[brokenbrainwave]

Public schools, while not offering a leading edge eductation, does provide a valuable service. Not everyone can afford to put their child in a private setting, this is life, this is the American way. Vouchers are going completely against the grain and smack dab into socialism (see income redistrobution as prime example).

I liken the public school system to a Ford Tarus. Not a lot of flash, can give you problems if you dont watch the gauges closely, and its resale value drops faster than a boy bands members career after their first shave as soon as you drive it off the lot. However, is there value in both, yes. The key to a quality public education is the same as to a quality Tarus ownership, maintanance! Take the car again. Say you dont change its oil but every 20,000 miles, well see, you will then have a lot of sludge and grit slinging around your engine causing premature wear of the components. The same can be said if you are too damned busy to check out your kids school and demand, if needed change. The NEA is not the great God they claim to be, they can be beaten if the situation calls for it. There are laws in place that will provide for a child, but it starts with the community. To am person , the community must be involved in their school. That is the single most glaring downfall of public education, lack of community involvement. Say the system becomes privatized and you have the same lackluster too busy to care at all, too wrapped up in their career, parents. Guess what folks, you will have the same results! Private does not mean better, its the quality that matters. Put garbage in, you get garbage out. Without community support, pretty much everything fails.

 

[Calamity Jane]

I do think that there are some structural problems with our education systems. The scores and acheivements of our many of our students are lacking. What can be done to correct this problem?

Honestly? I think 99% of the educational 'failings' of our children are due to lack of parental involvement. I've seen so many parents who believe wholeheartedly that it is the job of the teachers to educate children, to teach them to read, to motivate them. They behave as if they have no responsibility toward any of this themselves.

I would have been mortally embarrassed if my child had started kindergarten this year without the ability to read simple words and do simple math problems. Yet, in Missouri, kids aren't required to be able to read until 2nd or 3rd grade. So, a lot of parents let the ability slide. "They'll learn it eventually." Those same parents get pissed off at teachers when their children do poorly in school.

 

[LovetoGiveRoses]

Good morning BBW. I agree with your post...parental involvement is essential.

Why do you think student achievement is so low? Parental involvement is an important component, but is it the whole cause?

 

[brokenbrainwave]

Why do you think student achievement is so low?

plain and simply, its the parents fault. This will get me chastised, called names, and probably a couple of pins in voodoo dolls. I have ranted many times about both parents working careers that take them away from their MAIN responsibility, that critter they created. Making a ton of money, driving that new BMW, whatever, means jack if it comes at the expense of your child. They must be nurtured, they must be watched after, they must be guided. Sorry, a nanny while mom and/or dad is closing that deal in Spain is not the answer.

Now, with that said, in the example I just gave, the kid is in a private school. I just realized my folly, fucking Nyquil hangover.
However take out the new BMW and the nanny it still works for all socio/economic backgrounds.

LOok at the inner cities, they are in disrepair. It is not from a lack of money, its from a lack of community pride. The kid see's daddy gunned down during a crack deal, yet he is to do well in school? Look at the suburbs, afresh with new houses and a happy shiney glow. Yet she see's mommy juggling soccer practice, recitals, and such, yet mommy cant seem to find that 15 min to "talk".

In both situations the kid is likely to feel abandoned, alone, lost. In both situations the kid is not being shown the proper attention they need to mature.
In both situations the danger is the kid gives up.

ps: I am also against drugging your kids cause you fucked up and did not make them behave...

 

[LovetoGiveRoses]

plain and simply, its the parents fault. This will get me chastised, called names, and probably a couple of pins in voodoo dolls. I have ranted many times about both parents working careers that take them away from their MAIN responsibility, that critter they created. Making a ton of money, driving that new BMW, whatever, means jack if it comes at the expense of your child. They must be nurtured, they must be watched after, they must be guided. Sorry, a nanny while mom and/or dad is closing that deal in Spain is not the answer.

Now, with that said, in the example I just gave, the kid is in a private school. I just realized my folly, fucking Nyquil hangover.
However take out the new BMW and the nanny it still works for all socio/economic backgrounds.

LOok at the inner cities, they are in disrepair. It is not from a lack of money, its from a lack of community pride. The kid see's daddy gunned down during a crack deal, yet he is to do well in school? Look at the suburbs, afresh with new houses and a happy shiney glow. Yet she see's mommy juggling soccer practice, recitals, and such, yet mommy cant seem to find that 15 min to "talk".

In both situations the kid is likely to feel abandoned, alone, lost. In both situations the kid is not being shown the proper attention they need to mature.
In both situations the danger is the kid gives up.

ps: I am also against drugging your kids cause you fucked up and did not make them behave...

It's interesting that in some of these inner city schools, when school choice is introduced, often achievement goes up. Rod Paige, the current head of the Federal Department of Education, was the superintendant of the Houston School system which put vouchers into place. One of the more interesting results was that it forced parents to become more involved with their children's educations. With parental support, the kids are less likely to give up I think.

What do you think about that?

 

[LovetoGiveRoses]

Honestly? I think 99% of the educational 'failings' of our children are due to lack of parental involvement. I've seen so many parents who believe wholeheartedly that it is the job of the teachers to educate children, to teach them to read, to motivate them. They behave as if they have no responsibility toward any of this themselves.

I would have been mortally embarrassed if my child had started kindergarten this year without the ability to read simple words and do simple math problems. Yet, in Missouri, kids aren't required to be able to read until 2nd or 3rd grade. So, a lot of parents let the ability slide. "They'll learn it eventually." Those same parents get pissed off at teachers when their children do poorly in school.

That's great that you've taken the time to teach your child. I like to do that too. Parental involvement is essential.

I've found that the material and the volume of information taught is brought down to a fairly low level so that everyone can learn it. I worry about that a little. The "average" student is not challenged because the material is made so that everyone can pass easily. Does that worry you?

 

[Calamity Jane]

With parental support, the kids are less likely to give up I think.

What do you think about that?

Of course! It works that way with anything. Take riding, for example. We have some kids at the stable, who are dropped off in time for their lesson, and picked up an hour or so later. The parents have never watched a lesson, have never helped saddle the horse, are never there afterward to tell the kid what a good job he/she did. When the going gets tough, these are the first kids to drop out of lessons. The ones who have supportive parents, keep on riding through the hot summers and freezing winters. Who show up no matter what, and if we can't ride, they still hang out around the barn, they groom, they clean stalls, they become involved in the activity.

 

[LovetoGiveRoses]

Of course! It works that way with anything. Take riding, for example. We have some kids at the stable, who are dropped off in time for their lesson, and picked up an hour or so later. The parents have never watched a lesson, have never helped saddle the horse, are never there afterward to tell the kid what a good job he/she did. When the going gets tough, these are the first kids to drop out of lessons. The ones who have supportive parents, keep on riding through the hot summers and freezing winters. Who show up no matter what, and if we can't ride, they still hang out around the barn, they groom, they clean stalls, they become involved in the activity.

PGC, you're from a rural area. What do you think about the often problematic inner city schools? Under recent court decisions and the "centralization" tendancies of our federal government (not taking a side on whether that is good or bad yet) some of your "rural" (and mine too) tax dollars will be going to further support inner city schools. What kinds of programs should be put into place with those new dollars to improve the inner city schools?

 

[Calamity Jane]

The "average" student is not challenged because the material is made so that everyone can pass easily. Does that worry you?

It terrifies me. I'm waiting for the day I get the phone call that they want my kid medicated because she's bored in class. She's only in kindergarten, but I keep her challenged at home, and I was thrilled to learn that her teacher has over 2000 books in the classroom, and fought for an extra library day every other week. Everynight, my daughter brings home a different book from her teacher that is her bed time story. We read it at least three times and talk about it.

I've only got one kid in school right now, and I'm a stay at home mom. I have all the time in the world to make a nuisance of myself if the schools are slacking.

 

[brokenbrainwave]

In some cases it might help. Is it possible in those however, it is more due to the stygma associated with the public school? I see your point, its valid. Yes there are cases that say just this. Yet there are also cases that show no improvement over the public school, especially when there has been a culture of activism created in said community. There is a inner sity school in Minnesota I think, forgive me I have forgotten the name. The local system instituted a voucher program. Are the kids doing well, yes they are. But, in that same school system a principle decided he had had enough. He was sick of being viewed as inferior. He was ashamed that his funding had been cut to send his kids to this private academy. He went out, raised public support, raised parental involvement, created an air of optimism and guess what happend, his school got better. The teachers started to teach better, the kids started to learn, the community got its pride back.

 

[LovetoGiveRoses]

In some cases it might help. Is it possible in those however, it is more due to the stygma associated with the public school? I see your point, its valid. Yes there are cases that say just this. Yet there are also cases that show no improvement over the public school, especially when there has been a culture of activism created in said community. There is a inner sity school in Minnesota I think, forgive me I have forgotten the name. The local system instituted a voucher program. Are the kids doing well, yes they are. But, in that same school system a principle decided he had had enough. He was sick of being viewed as inferior. He was ashamed that his funding had been cut to send his kids to this private academy. He went out, raised public support, raised parental involvement, created an air of optimism and guess what happend, his school got better. The teachers started to teach better, the kids started to learn, the community got its pride back.

That is a really neat story. There are lots of options for improvement, I hope that they're not all blocked.

I've got to get to work now, I'll catch y'all later.

 

[brokenbrainwave]

I've found that the material and the volume of information taught is brought down to a fairly low level so that everyone can learn it. I worry about that a little. The "average" student is not challenged because the material is made so that everyone can pass easily. Does that worry you?

This is a direct result of mom and dad not getting involved, merely wanting their kid to pass.

 

[Calamity Jane]

PGC, you're from a rural area. What do you think about the often problematic inner city schools? Under recent court decisions and the "centralization" tendancies of our federal government (not taking a side on whether that is good or bad yet) some of your "rural" (and mine too) tax dollars will be going to further support inner city schools. What kinds of programs should be put into place with those new dollars to improve the inner city schools?

Well, I moved to the country partially for the schools. I was sick of paying taxes to a school district that I was never going to feel comfortable sending my kids through. (Read up on the Kansas City Missouri School District and you'll understand). If I thought money would help the districts, I'd be all for shoveling cash their way. I think the only thing that is going to help, is working backwards. Foster community involvement, re-establish neighborhood schools, encourage volunteerism (extra credit for volunteering?)... things that give the kids a purpose. I think we should also get back into the groove of field trips. I don't think schools do these at all anymore, but when I was a kid, we'd take trips to local orchards, pick apples, and then go back to class and make apple pie... we'd go out to a christmas tree farm and cut down a holiday tree for our classroom... we went to the zoo... we went on nature hikes... we went to the cemetary and did rubbings... we weren't trapped in classrooms day in and day out with no variety or stimulation.

 

[Backyard sweaty]

plain and simply, its the parents fault. This will get me chastised, called names, and probably a couple of pins in voodoo dolls. I have ranted many times about both parents working careers that take them away from their MAIN responsibility, that critter they created. Making a ton of money, driving that new BMW, whatever, means jack if it comes at the expense of your child. They must be nurtured, they must be watched after, they must be guided. Sorry, a nanny while mom and/or dad is closing that deal in Spain is not the answer.

Now, with that said, in the example I just gave, the kid is in a private school. I just realized my folly, fucking Nyquil hangover.
However take out the new BMW and the nanny it still works for all socio/economic backgrounds.

LOok at the inner cities, they are in disrepair. It is not from a lack of money, its from a lack of community pride. The kid see's daddy gunned down during a crack deal, yet he is to do well in school? Look at the suburbs, afresh with new houses and a happy shiney glow. Yet she see's mommy juggling soccer practice, recitals, and such, yet mommy cant seem to find that 15 min to "talk".

In both situations the kid is likely to feel abandoned, alone, lost. In both situations the kid is not being shown the proper attention they need to mature.
In both situations the danger is the kid gives up.

ps: I am also against drugging your kids cause you fucked up and did not make them behave...

I do agree with you in part BBW, however, I think you made it look like a virtually non correctable situation. I maintain that it is very possible and done far more routinely than one would think, raising a child or two that do well in school participate in soccer, scouts, have a small job and are well adjusted because they get to spend time with both their parents as well as their friends. It just takes a lot of effort and work on the parents part. The basics of your post to me was not that public school or even a community itself has that much to do with the child's social/mental well being, good grades and basic knowledge of rights and wrongs, but rather that today's parents are lazy.

To address public Vs private education: what's best for the child in each and every situation? Throw home schooled in as well as there is certainly room to say that in some cases that is what is best for the child. The article that LTGR posted I thought to be the basic ramblings of an idiot or my idiotic religious fanatic brother, (same thing).

 

[brokenbrainwave]

Well, I moved to the country partially for the schools. I was sick of paying taxes to a school district that I was never going to feel comfortable sending my kids through. (Read up on the Kansas City Missouri School District and you'll understand). If I thought money would help the districts, I'd be all for shoveling cash their way. I think the only thing that is going to help, is working backwards. Foster community involvement, re-establish neighborhood schools, encourage volunteerism (extra credit for volunteering?)... things that give the kids a purpose. I think we should also get back into the groove of field trips. I don't think schools do these at all anymore, but when I was a kid, we'd take trips to local orchards, pick apples, and then go back to class and make apple pie... we'd go out to a christmas tree farm and cut down a holiday tree for our classroom... we went to the zoo... we went on nature hikes... we went to the cemetary and did rubbings... we weren't trapped in classrooms day in and day out with no variety or stimulation.

this is because we as parents no longer demand this sort of stimuli. God forbide if a person has to cancel an important meeting to be a chaparone.

 

[LovetoGiveRoses]

I do agree with you in part BBW, however, I think you made it look like a virtually non correctable situation. I maintain that it is very possible and done far more routinely than one would think, raising a child or two that do well in school participate in soccer, scouts, have a small job and are well adjusted because they get to spend time with both their parents as well as their friends. It just takes a lot of effort and work on the parents part. The basics of your post to me was not that public school or even a community itself has that much to do with the child's social/mental well being, good grades and basic knowledge of rights and wrongs, but rather that today's parents are lazy.

To address public Vs private education: what's best for the child in each and every situation? Throw home schooled in as well as there is certainly room to say that in some cases that is what is best for the child. The article that LTGR posted I thought to be the basic ramblings of an idiot or my idiotic religious fanatic brother, (same thing).

I don't agree with the article either as I said above. It just made me think about education again and ponder things. Everyone's brought up some really good points though, thanks. I gotta get to work now though. Cy'all later.

 

[brokenbrainwave]

backyard, its possible I painted a much more dire picture than intended, fair enough. What I was trying to get at is that your childs education is a two way street, not just the states problem. Its very correctable, get the community involved once again. Oh and yes I will agree that I think todays parents are lazy when it comes to their parental responsibilities concering an active role in their childs public education.

 

[Backyard sweaty]

Every year

I chaparon (sp?). Dispite that their mother and I both have full time jobs. Do I always have a blast.........no, LOL. It's kinda hard to have a blast stuck in a hotel room or a zoo or worse yet a museum with yours and 3 hyperactive boys.

I agree with LTGR every post I have read on this thread has some great points.

PCG that is exactly why I overpaid for my house and property......the schools. I'll pay whatever taxes needed to help the schools just let me see that that is where the cash is going.

I even went so far as to toy with running for the school board once, but I chickened out. LOL.

 

[Bob Waters]

I think you guys have pretty much hit the key - parental involvement.

A big question on the effectiveness of private schools is whether the better 'education' received by the child is from better teaching or is it due to the climate of parental involvement fostered by the private school. You're more likely to be watching to check if Jr's doing his homework if you're paying tuition.

Our town's public school system puts up SAT scores the equal or better then many of the local private ones BUT the parents in this community are VERY involved in the process.

I have several relatives who teach in an inner city system. They're excellent teachers, but when they've got to worry about whether a student has eaten or bathed today more then they're worried about if he's done his homework, there's only so much you can do.

 

[Backyard sweaty]

backyard, its possible I painted a much more dire picture than intended, fair enough. What I was trying to get at is that your childs education is a two way street, not just the states problem. Its very correctable, get the community involved once again. Oh and yes I will agree that I think todays parents are lazy when it comes to their parental responsibilities concering an active role in their childs public education.

And I agree 100% with you BBW.

 

[LovetoGiveRoses]

I think you guys have pretty much hit the key - parental involvement.

A big question on the effectiveness of private schools is whether the better 'education' received by the child is from better teaching or is it due to the climate of parental involvement fostered by the private school. You're more likely to be watching to check if Jr's doing his homework if you're paying tuition.

Our town's public school system puts up SAT scores the equal or better then many of the local private ones BUT the parents in this community are VERY involved in the process.

I have several relatives who teach in an inner city system. They're excellent teachers, but when they've got to worry about whether a student has eaten or bathed today more then they're worried about if he's done his homework, there's only so much you can do.

I know of a school where there's NO parental involvement. Most parents are far away. The school SAT averages are 100 points above the national average for English and Math (each). Although this is not a representative sample, I might be able to argue that parental involvement isn't 100% of the shortfall.

o We've established that there's some "dumbing down" so that everyone can pass.

What are some of the other factors?

 

[Backyard sweaty]

My first thought

I know of a school where there's NO parental involvement. Most parents are far away. The school SAT averages are 100 points above the national average for English and Math (each). Although this is not a representative sample, I might be able to argue that parental involvement isn't 100% of the shortfall.

o We've established that there's some "dumbing down" so that everyone can pass.

What are some of the other factors?

And just to play the Devils advocate here. I can go down to the inner city schools of Detroit (of course I'd prefer to send Bob to the inner city schools in Boston) and pick a handful of kids that really have a crushing desire to learn and prove the same thing. What's the real and or realistic point? You could very easily do the same thing in another part of the world where kids would do anything to move to a better place. Once again, I go back to....wtp?

As to what your question was LTGR: Many and non of which should be poo-poo'ed. List the factors and then change the order depending upon the school, country, state, suburb, class (money), etc., etc., etc.