Public Nudity versus Public Indecency

[SeaCat]

Okay this was inspired by another thread.

I know we have talked about this in other places but let's bring it up again.

Public Nudity versus Public Indecency.

What is the difference, is there one.

Who determines the difference? On what grounds?

I of course do know the Old Testament story of Adam and Eve clothing themselves to hide their shame. Is the true translation of the original scripture or was it biased by the ideas and wants of those doing the translation?

I have heard many of the modern arguments against Public Nudity claiming it is Indecent, and find most of those arguments at the least amusing and at their worst downright dangerous. (I have only found two arguments to be at least understandable. These are the ones about Hygene and Aesthetics.) I find most of them to be based on shitty research and illogical thinking.

We as writers of Porn, (Or Erotica if you will,) can at least think about this without going into twitching Knee Jerk reactionism. so what are your thoughts?

What is Public Indecency? Why?

Cat

 

[Jenny_Jackson]

Why even ask this?

Public Nudity - One not wearing clothes

Public Indecency - An unlawful act of exposing the genetalia or lewd behavior.

So there are two distinct differences. (1) One is a lawful exposure of ones body the other is a crime as defined by the local jurisdiction.

And (2) One implys a lewd or sexual intent, the other does not.

 

[neonlyte]

Interesting question Seacat.

There is a beach I know, in fact, I'm writing about it as the background to a story. Huge beach, unofficial nudist area at the far end. The thing about it is that of all the beach they could have chosen the nudists occupy the area just below the coastal path that winds down off the headland and runs along the back of the beach. That means we (which includes me when I'm there) are in full frontal view of the walkers. And the walkers include the usual socks, boots and rucksack brigade, and school parties (it's a naturalists trail).

Apart from being surprised that no one has fallen off the headland when they come in sight of a couple of hundred nude sun bathers, I'm surprised we are allowed to continue using that area of the beach. OK, it's in France and attitudes are slightly more relaxed, even so, there are a lot of kids on that trail.

No one on the beach is doing anything but sunbathing. I'm sure any other activity - nude volleyball for example - would bring some kind of administrative problem. It's all those jiggly bits.

I'm guessing Public Indecency has display and movement attributes that remove it from simple Public Nudity. But Indecency is also in the mind of the beholder, one man's flacid prick is another woman's outrage. So Indecency must have a third component, the viewer. Indecent display or displaying for the purpose of being indecent is probably common ground, but what about the viewer? Isn't it the viewer that actually sets the boundary?

 

[SeaCat]

Why even ask this?

Public Nudity - One not wearing clothes

Public Indecency - An unlawful act of exposing the genetalia or lewd behavior.

So there are two distinct differences. (1) One is a lawful exposure of ones body the other is a crime as defined by the local jurisdiction.

And (2) One implys a lewd or sexual intent, the other does not.

Ahhh but who defines this? What is the definition of it? Why?

Would it be Public Nudity or Public Indecency for me to walk out to my mailbox in the nude? Would this be changed if I was hard or soft?

Why is there a difference in my walking about without a shirt and my wife doing so? What is the basis of this?

Cat

 

[SeaCat]

Interesting question Seacat.

There is a beach I know, in fact, I'm writing about it as the background to a story. Huge beach, unofficial nudist area at the far end. The thing about it is that of all the beach they could have chosen the nudists occupy the area just below the coastal path that winds down off the headland and runs along the back of the beach. That means we (which includes me when I'm there) are in full frontal view of the walkers. And the walkers include the usual socks, boots and rucksack brigade, and school parties (it's a naturalists trail).

Apart from being surprised that no one has fallen off the headland when they come in sight of a couple of hundred nude sun bathers, I'm surprised we are allowed to continue using that area of the beach. OK, it's in France and attitudes are slightly more relaxed, even so, there are a lot of kids on that trail.

No one on the beach is doing anything but sunbathing. I'm sure any other activity - nude volleyball for example - would bring some kind of administrative problem. It's all those jiggly bits.

I'm guessing Public Indecency has display and movement attributes that remove it from simple Public Nudity. But Indecency is also in the mind of the beholder, one man's flacid prick is another woman's outrage. So Indecency must have a third component, the viewer. Indecent display or displaying for the purpose of being indecent is probably common ground, but what about the viewer? Isn't it the viewer that actually sets the boundary?

Interesting comments.

Why would something like Nude Volleyball change it from Public Nudity to Public Indecency? Again what is the basis of this?

What is the boundary and how was it determined.

Here in the United States it is perfectly legal for me to go about without a shirt on, and yet my wife would be arrested. What is the difference? Why is her going about without a shirt Indecent while my going without one not?

Cat

 

[rgraham666]

The only time I've ever seen some be indecent in public was the guy wearing only shorts on a hot day. It was his belly that did it. Said belly literally hung to his knees. It was not a pretty sight.

But that's just me.

Hygiene I can also understand.

Most of the other arguments against being naked in public are from bluenoses of one type or another.

Indecency, like beauty, is in the eye of the beholder.

 

[CharleyH]

Okay this was inspired by another thread.

I know we have talked about this in other places but let's bring it up again.

Public Nudity versus Public Indecency.

What is the difference, is there one.

Who determines the difference? On what grounds?

I of course do know the Old Testament story of Adam and Eve clothing themselves to hide their shame. Is the true translation of the original scripture or was it biased by the ideas and wants of those doing the translation?

I have heard many of the modern arguments against Public Nudity claiming it is Indecent, and find most of those arguments at the least amusing and at their worst downright dangerous. (I have only found two arguments to be at least understandable. These are the ones about Hygene and Aesthetics.) I find most of them to be based on shitty research and illogical thinking.

We as writers of Porn, (Or Erotica if you will,) can at least think about this without going into twitching Knee Jerk reactionism. so what are your thoughts?

What is Public Indecency? Why?

Cat

Public indecency is simply a matter of people being jealous of other people having the adventure of their life infront of them. Why you ask? Because they ain't gettin' none and want it. As for any other answers? There are criminal laws for those things, Cat.

 

[CharleyH]

The only time I've ever seen some be indecent in public was the guy wearing only shorts on a hot day. It was his belly that did it. Said belly literally hung to his knees. It was not a pretty sight.

It is certainly publically indecent, particularly if you add a thong. (OH, it is prevalent on beaches people!)

 

[Jenny_Jackson]

This is a clip from the Oregon Statues on Indecent Exposure:

A BILL FOR AN ACT
Relating to public indecency; amending ORS 163.465.
Be It Enacted by the People of the State of Oregon:
SECTION 1. ORS 163.465 is amended to read:
163.465. (1) A person commits the crime of public indecency if
while in, or in view of, a public place the person performs:
(a) An act of sexual intercourse;
(b) An act of deviate sexual intercourse; or
(c) An act of exposing the genitals of the person with the
intent of arousing the sexual desire of the person or another
person.
(2)(a) Public indecency is a Class A misdemeanor.
(b) Notwithstanding paragraph (a) of this subsection, public
indecency is a Class C felony if the person has a prior
conviction for public indecency or a crime described in ORS
163.355 to 163.445 { + or for a crime in another jurisdiction
that, if committed in this state, would constitute public

It's plain that there has to be an action that either is lewd or has the intent of arrousal in another person. Indecent Exposure is a crime.

On the other hand, Public Nudity generally may not be accepted behavior, but it is not necessarily a crime if done in designated places, ie, nudist colonies, nude beaches, etc. It simply means you are not clothed. It says nothing about intent or actions.

 

[JRaven]

SeaCat naked = Public Nudity (handsome guy)
JRaven naked = Indecent Exposure (fat old broad)

The U.S. Supreme Court has upheld the communtiy definition of indecency many times. In short, whatever the community (12 folks on a jury) defines as being indecent is the legal definition. Only by invoking First Ammendment rights has anyone (Larry Flint, et al) been able to escape a guilty verdict of indecency. I'm not saying it's necessarily right, just the way it is.

Jenny

 

[CharleyH]

This is a clip from the Oregon Statues on Indecent Exposure:



It's plain that there has to be an action that either is lewd or has the intent of arrousal in another person. Indecent Exposure is a crime.

On the other hand, Public Nudity generally may not be accepted behavior, but it is not necessarily a crime if done in designated places, ie, nudist colonies, nude beaches, etc. It simply means you are not clothed. It says nothing about intent or actions.

You don't get aroused by some sizzling hot, temperature rising, blood pulsing flood or eruption inducing naked person? Hmf. That IS indecent.

 

[Jenny_Jackson]

You don't get aroused by some sizzling hot, temperature rising, blood pulsing flood or eruption inducing naked person? Hmf. That IS indecent.

I didn't say that, Charlie. If the intent of the nude person is to induce lust in me then it is no longer public nudity and becomes Public Indecency. I see the difference as a strictly legal definition.

Were I to walk into a bar butt naked, I'm sure I would be arrested for Indecent Exposure even without intent because of the inappropriate setting. On the other hand, if I were to walk along the sand at the edge of the Columbia River between 42nd Ave and the Sea Scout Base, no one would either notice or care because that is a designated Nude Beach.

The difference is both the Intent and Action. In the first example my INTENT is to perform a disruptive action in an inappropriate place. In the second, I am joining in a completely legal action.

 

[CharleyH]

I didn't say that, Charlie. If the intent of the nude person is to induce lust in me then it is no longer public nudity and becomes Public Indecency. I see the difference as a strictly legal definition.

Were I to walk into a bar butt naked, I'm sure I would be arrested for Indecent Exposure even without intent because of the inappropriate setting. On the other hand, if I were to walk along the sand at the edge of the Columbia River between 42nd Ave and the Sea Scout Base, no one would either notice or care because that is a designated Nude Beach.

The difference is both the Intent and Action. In the first example my INTENT is to perform a disruptive action in an inappropriate place. In the second, I am joining in a completely legal action.

Sarcasm, love. I understand your points and they're good ones. Have a great night, JJ.

 

[SeaCat]

This is a clip from the Oregon Statues on Indecent Exposure:



It's plain that there has to be an action that either is lewd or has the intent of arrousal in another person. Indecent Exposure is a crime.

On the other hand, Public Nudity generally may not be accepted behavior, but it is not necessarily a crime if done in designated places, ie, nudist colonies, nude beaches, etc. It simply means you are not clothed. It says nothing about intent or actions.

And again I have to ask. Who is it who determines the difference and why? Upon what basis?

What is lewd behavior? What is behavior with the intent of arousing another person? Who decides and upon what criterion?

Why would it be lewd behavior for me to walk the one hundred feet from my trailer to my mailbox and back in the nude, and yet it is not lewd behavior to walk the same distance on a nude beach?

What is the difference between a nude beach and my front yard? Why is there a difference, and again who decides and on what basis?

I'm not trying to single you out here, nor am I being mean. I am honestly interested.

I know several people who don't care that their kids, or their kids friends see them in the nude, and yet they find it highly disturbing of the parents of their kids let them see them in the nude. What is the difference?

Cat

 

[Kandi]

Why even ask this?

Public Nudity - One not wearing clothes

Public Indecency - An unlawful act of exposing the genetalia or lewd behavior.

So there are two distinct differences. (1) One is a lawful exposure of ones body the other is a crime as defined by the local jurisdiction.

And (2) One implys a lewd or sexual intent, the other does not.

In most places in this country, public nudity is NOT legal.

 

[R. Richard]

And again I have to ask. Who is it who determines the difference and why? Upon what basis?

What is lewd behavior? What is behavior with the intent of arousing another person? Who decides and upon what criterion?

Why would it be lewd behavior for me to walk the one hundred feet from my trailer to my mailbox and back in the nude, and yet it is not lewd behavior to walk the same distance on a nude beach?

What is the difference between a nude beach and my front yard? Why is there a difference, and again who decides and on what basis?

I'm not trying to single you out here, nor am I being mean. I am honestly interested.

I know several people who don't care that their kids, or their kids friends see them in the nude, and yet they find it highly disturbing of the parents of their kids let them see them in the nude. What is the difference?

Cat

Cat, if you go to a nudist beach, you are among people who have agreed to be nude [I realize that it is technically clothing optional] and to see others who are nude. Thus there is no lewd behavior.

If you walk to your mailbox in the nude, you may be offending one or more of your neighbors who think that your nude walk is lewd behavior. One or more of your neighbors may be raising chldren and does not want to have to explain to the children why you can walk nude and they can't. I don't necessarily agree with your neighbors possible attitude, but they do have a right to that attitude. That is why nudity is illegal in many, many places in the US.

In the particular neighborhood where I live, there are many older people and anyone who attemted to walk around their own front yard would be lucky if the neighbors just called the police. Can you say, "lynch mob?"

 

[SeaCat]

Cat, if you go to a nudist beach, you are among people who have agreed to be nude [I realize that it is technically clothing optional] and to see others who are nude. Thus there is no lewd behavior.

If you walk to your mailbox in the nude, you may be offending one or more of your neighbors who think that your nude walk is lewd behavior. One or more of your neighbors may be raising chldren and does not want to have to explain to the children why you can walk nude and they can't. I don't necessarily agree with your neighbors possible attitude, but they do have a right to that attitude. That is why nudity is illegal in many, many places in the US.

In the particular neighborhood where I live, there are many older people and anyone who attemted to walk around their own front yard would be lucky if the neighbors just called the police. Can you say, "lynch mob?"

This I know, but do not fully understand.

Where is it their attitude comes from? By what rights do they assert that their views are correct and more importantly why is this accepted?

I acknowledge these laws but I wich to know where they come from and why they are not questioned. Why are they accepted?

Why is it accepted that seeing a nude human being is "Harmful" to children? Why is it accepted that being nude is an invitation or a desire for sex? Where do these ideas come from and why are they not questioned?

Cat

 

[angelicminx]

Please forgive me for the following smart ass answer, I can't help myself:

Seeing my uncle nude would be just fucking indecent.


OTOH, seeing one of y'all naked would be considered art appreciation.

 

[Roxanne Appleby]

Public nudity: Showing a little nipple and ass crack on the beach at San Tropez, Ipanema or Black Beach.

Public Indecency: Showing a little nipple* and ass crack at Chuckie Cheese or Jack in the Box kiddie restaurants.

Any questions?


*Nipple OK if breastfeeding.

 

[R. Richard]

This I know, but do not fully understand.

Where is it their attitude comes from? By what rights do they assert that their views are correct and more importantly why is this accepted?

I acknowledge these laws but I wich to know where they come from and why they are not questioned. Why are they accepted?

Why is it accepted that seeing a nude human being is "Harmful" to children? Why is it accepted that being nude is an invitation or a desire for sex? Where do these ideas come from and why are they not questioned?

Cat

Let me ask you a few questions.

1) Let's take a slim, trim 39-year-old mother and her slim, trim 18 -year-old daughter. If they dump their laundry and just pad around naked, who looks the best? Now, let the slim, trim mother dress in the kind of expensive clothes that a successful 39-year-old lady can afford and her daughter dresses off the bargain rack at Cheapo Teen. Now who looks the best? [It has been said, clothes don't make the man, but clothes do make the woman! DODGE, HERE COME THE BRICKBATS!]

2) Let's take a slim, trim 39-year-old father and his slim, trim 18 -year-old son. If they dump their laundry and just pad around naked, who looks the best? Now, let the slim, trim father dress in an expensive business suit and his son dresses in jeans and a wash and wear shirt. Now who looks the best? [Clothes may not make the man, but they do give a damn good running start.]

3) When I worked as a computer programmer, I wore white shirt, tie and slacks to work each day, since it was a business operation. The rest of the programmers mostly wore jeans and a tee shirt. All I can tell you is that I spent quite a bit of time in meeting with customers for projects I wasn't working on, since the company wanted somebody who looked like they drove to work, vice somebody who rode under a freight car to work. At least the companies I worked for thought that clothes were very important.

4) In the major cities in the Americas, Eurasia, Africa and Australia, you find clothed, civilized people, enjoying the comforts of technology. In remote places in Africa and the Amazon basin you find naked/near naked people grubbing for bare survival. Maybe there is a connection between clothed/success and naked/poverty.

 

[Halo_n_horns]

Okay this was inspired by another thread.

I know we have talked about this in other places but let's bring it up again.

Public Nudity versus Public Indecency.

What is the difference, is there one.

Who determines the difference? On what grounds?

I of course do know the Old Testament story of Adam and Eve clothing themselves to hide their shame. Is the true translation of the original scripture or was it biased by the ideas and wants of those doing the translation?

I have heard many of the modern arguments against Public Nudity claiming it is Indecent, and find most of those arguments at the least amusing and at their worst downright dangerous. (I have only found two arguments to be at least understandable. These are the ones about Hygene and Aesthetics.) I find most of them to be based on shitty research and illogical thinking.

We as writers of Porn, (Or Erotica if you will,) can at least think about this without going into twitching Knee Jerk reactionism. so what are your thoughts?

What is Public Indecency? Why?

Cat

Its interesting that the Biblical reference of Adam and Eve's nakedness was used here. Nowhere in those passages does it state that God found their nakedness shameful in any way, shape or form. Adam and Eve decided for themselves that their nakedness was shameful, despite God's obvious acceptance of it, and then they proceeded to force that opinion on everyone that followed them.

In the end its not a matter of when and where is nudity decent or indecent, its more a matter of who is leading and who is following ... blindly?

Jenny Jackson's commentary on this topic only covers the letter of the law. It takes little effort to see that the lawmakers and their precious laws have sexualized nudity as much if not more than we have in the stories and artworks we create.

Were it not for Adam and Eve, and the reinforcement of their decisions by so many closet-perverts, nudity may have been left regarded as being as natural to see as the sun in the sky and all the rest of nature that resides below it.

So, the obvious answer to the question is that public nudity becomes public indecency as soon as someone else says that's what it is. That is, after all, what everyone has been taught.

 

[oggbashan]

Land's End to John O'Groats

Recently a man attempted to walk from Land's End to John O' Groats wearing no clothes. He was arrested several times but most people's reaction was 'So what?'.

His intent was not to arouse but to demonstrate for personal freedoms. Although a few condemned him, the majority didn't care and many people thought he was slightly nutty but entitled to walk nude if he wanted to.

We have nudist beaches locally. The signs are there to warn people what to expect but there is no prohibition on clothed people walking through. There is rarely any problem, and when there is, it is from people who would cause a problem anywhere.

It is a sexist thing.

If a woman is nude in her back garden and her neighbour takes a look - He is a Peeping Tom.

If a man is nude in his back garden and his neighbour takes a look - He is exposing himself.

Og

 

[Kandi]

Public nudity: Showing a little nipple and ass crack on the beach at San Tropez, Ipanema or Black Beach.

Public Indecency: Showing a little nipple* and ass crack at Chuckie Cheese or Jack in the Box kiddie restaurants.

Any questions?


*Nipple OK if breastfeeding.

What in heaven's name makes a nipple indecent???

 

[TxRad]

First off, I've been a nudist since my early teens and have no problems with nudity in any shape or form....

With that said, I was in California years ago when the first tried to close Black's Beach, a local colthing optional beach in a remote area.... Being a user of that beach, I attended the meeting to dicuss the problem. A local preacher was ranting and raving about the sin and indeciency of the place.... I asked him what sin and indeciency he was referring to... He replied, "All those naked people."

Well, his God made all those naked people and designed the body they wore in his own image, so what was the problem.... He said it was against public morals....

There you have it... public morals....

But I for one don't believe this.... Like Og pointed out, most people don't care... It's more likely the preacher and a few opinionated people are the source of Public morals...

There is nothing indecent about the human form,
that is unless it's a three hundred pound man or woman in a string bikini...
and then that's just ugly, not indecent....

 

[TxRad]

What in heaven's name makes a nipple indecent???

Nothing makes a nipple indecent....

The 37 little old ladies in the garden club whose nipples are pointed at their knees are who decided that they were indecent..... IMHO anyway....