Psychological segue

[rescatooor]

Does embarrassment always entail humiliation though?

To me humiliation comes with the intent to make a character feel awful about themselves. It doesn't seem to be the case here, as the embarrassment is more akin to shyness and modesty. Now I don't know how the male character planned it out but it could be a moment of empowerment, which is something that a humiliation scene is not supposed to be really, at least not in the moment. With this logic, you could make a case of all kinds of exhibitionism being a form of humiliation, only the characters have only passed through those feelings of embarrassment and now they are just taking pleasure in owning their body.

 

[Bramblethorn]

I have a belief that men who humiliate women do it as a way to safely enjoy humiliation without bruising their fragile egos. They have been humiliated themselves and this is a format in which they can relive those experiences minus the pain. Much like how a victim of abuse grows up to become an abuser themselves.[b/]

That's a story often told by abusers to excuse their own crimes, but it might be unwise to rely on abusers' explanations for their abuse: https://theconversation.com/child-sex-abuse-doesnt-create-paedophiles-60373

 

[Bramblethorn]

Does embarrassment always entail humiliation though?

To me humiliation comes with the intent to make a character feel awful about themselves. It doesn't seem to be the case here, as the embarrassment is more akin to shyness and modesty. Now I don't know how the male character planned it out but it could be a moment of empowerment, which is something that a humiliation scene is not supposed to be really, at least not in the moment. With this logic, you could make a case of all kinds of exhibitionism being a form of humiliation, only the characters have only passed through those feelings of embarrassment and now they are just taking pleasure in owning their body.

Yep. I sometimes get embarrassed when people say nice things about me in public, but I certainly don't feel humiliated.

 

[XerXesXu]

Thank you for a very comprehensive response.


The Humiliation and Degradation thread you resurrected was about the primary experience of those who enjoyed engaging directly in H and D. There were 3 theories, 2 biological and 1 Political-Economic relating to primary experience. I saw no comment or evidence of the secondary experience you speak of, so I think, possibly it’s quite rare, nevertheless of interest. People who would never have an incestuous relationship get added sexual value from the secondary experience of watching or reading about it, so why shouldn't people who would never engage in the primary experience of Hand D get added sexual value from watching or reading about it?

I may be talking to myself, but I haven't quite lost it yet.

I never expected to post a story on Lit again, but this thread has interested me sufficiently to post something short which incorporates anecdotal evidence of behaviour shaping by reward, in the very obvious context of economic advantage. I also allude to other rewards of which I've seen evidence.

I submitted a story called 'Squealers' today for publication in the NC/R category. I never thought I'd submit there, but the interests of science require it. It's short, but it contains processes I've seen in action, and anecdotal evidence I've received ex rel eg: anal whores about the acquisition of the kink. It's not subtle.

I'll post a link when it's published, if it's published.

 

[SimonDoom]

Simon, I looked over your popularly rated hotel exhibitionist stories.

I will say it has strong elements of straightforward humiliation play. The second paragraph:

""Kymberly thought about what Robert had made her do. It embarrassed her, a little, to know she'd put her figure so boldly on display before so many people, and it was doubly embarrassing that these were people in her industry, people with whom she did business or from whom she would try to solicit business, people that she would be socializing with over drinks and dinner later that evening. But the exposure excited her, too. And it was doubly thrilling that she'd put herself in Robert's hands, leaving it to him to decide how and when she would be exposed."

Given some of your statements, I was surprised at this. It's a long series and takes up a fair portion of your submissions.

Perhaps you don't think it as humiliation play because it's happening to a woman?

I have a belief that men who humiliate women do it as a way to safely enjoy humiliation without bruising their fragile egos. They have been humiliated themselves and this is a format in which they can relive those experiences minus the pain. Much like how a victim of abuse grows up to become an abuser themselves.

This is also similar to how being submissive can be a way of sensitively enjoying dominance. In certain relationships, a dominant individual may recognize the insecurity of their partner. By allowing themselves to be humiliated they can vicariously enjoy acts of dominance through their partner's eyes without the guilt of potentially causing emotional discomfort.

I'm not sure where you think the incongruity in my statements lies. I don't see my stories as inconsistent with my statements about what is and is not "humiliation play."

Some of my stories do skirt the boundaries of humiliation. Exhibitionism stories often do, especially where a second person is orchestrating the main character's exhibitionism, as is the case in my Hotel Exhibitionist series. I think in this case "embarrassment" is a more apt term than "humiliation," but if you want to call it humiliation I won't argue the point with you. One of the thrills of exhibitionism is putting oneself in a position that risks disapproval or even punishment (in the form of being arrested) by society. There are elements of Dom/sub as well in the story. I personally don't see it as humiliation, because in the story Kymberly eagerly participates in the exhibitionism her husband has come up with, and it leaves her feeling exhilarated rather than humiliated.

On other websites, I've corresponded with other people, men and women, who seek humiliation and debasement. There's a definite vibe about it, that I think is missing from this story. They want to feel helpless and small. They want to be made to feel worthless. It's a psychology I don't really understand, but it seems to be quite common. I don't see that running through my Hotel Exhibitionist series. But if you do, I think you're free to see it differently. You wouldn't be the only one. Most people seem to have liked the story but some reacted in an extremely negative way and felt the husband's behavior amounted to abuse.

 

[verycuriouswriter]

I think in this case "embarrassment" is a more apt term than "humiliation,"

from my websters:

humiliation: to reduce (someone) to a lower position in one's own eyes or others' eyes : to make (someone) embarrassed

The Hotel story reads like a scene were a dominant partner has the submissive partner expose themselves publicly in embarrassing situations. Public embarrassment is typical of humiliation play, but very rarely would it be this risky and unwise.

In real life, not the extreme fantasies you find around here, the story represents what would be considered hard core humiliation play:

"What a crazy question to ask your wife in a situation like this, Kymberly thought. She had just orgasmed in the most embarrassing way possible in front of a man she didn't know, a man who nevertheless worked in her industry and could spread rumors about her, compromise her, maybe even ruin her." (written near the end of last page)

These are the precise thoughts that would surface in someone who realizes they have debased themselves. In a moment of clarity, the wife understands the self destructive behavior and self harm that she has engaged in.

You may say "it's a psychology I don't really understand", but you have written something far more humiliating than 95% of the BDSM community would deliberately participate in.

I will give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you were caught up in the fantasy of the idea and didn't take the time to reflect on the implications of what you were writing.

 

[SimonDoom]

I will give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you were caught up in the fantasy of the idea and didn't take the time to reflect on the implications of what you were writing.

On the contrary, I thought about it a lot. This was a very edgy story, about a professional woman doing things at her husband's request that put her profession at risk. I was aware of that as I wrote it. Some readers felt I crossed the line. Most seemed to like it.

The word "humiliation" is broad enough to encompass different shades of meaning, and I can't tell you that yours is wrong or that mine is exclusively right. But to me, humiliation is different from embarrassment (as Bramblethorn discussed, above). Kymberly is an intelligent and accomplished woman who seeks exposure, and perhaps embarrassment, but not humiliation. She doesn't feel worthless or small as a result of doing what her husband instructs her to do. What she does is more like going on a roller coaster or sky diving. It's risky and fun. The story is only half done, and at some point, I plan to finish it and make my point of view clearer before the story ends.

 

[MillieDynamite]

from my websters:

humiliation: to reduce (someone) to a lower position in one's own eyes or others' eyes : to make (someone) embarrassed

The Hotel story reads like a scene were a dominant partner has the submissive partner expose themselves publicly in embarrassing situations. Public embarrassment is typical of humiliation play, but very rarely would it be this risky and unwise.

In real life, not the extreme fantasies you find around here, the story represents what would be considered hard core humiliation play:

"What a crazy question to ask your wife in a situation like this, Kymberly thought. She had just orgasmed in the most embarrassing way possible in front of a man she didn't know, a man who nevertheless worked in her industry and could spread rumors about her, compromise her, maybe even ruin her." (written near the end of last page)

These are the precise thoughts that would surface in someone who realizes they have debased themselves. In a moment of clarity, the wife understands the self destructive behavior and self harm that she has engaged in.

You may say "it's a psychology I don't really understand", but you have written something far more humiliating than 95% of the BDSM community would deliberately participate in.

I will give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you were caught up in the fantasy of the idea and didn't take the time to reflect on the implications of what you were writing.

One night, a two or three years ago, in a convenience story, a young woman rushed in and asked where the bathroom was. The cashier pointed to the back of the story, where it says, RESTROOM, and the girls said, "Too late," and pissed herself. Hanging her head, she walked out of the store. Outside two men were howling laughing, and got in the same car she was in and drove away.

"Fucking BDSM convention," the cashier said. I was in Tulsa and some yearly event was being held at the hotel down the block. The cashier said, "The freaks always pull some shit here when they have that get together."

 

[verycuriouswriter]

Well, you are right about one thing - the story isn't really about humiliation. It's about debasement to the point of self destruction. Acting out amongst work peers in this way is an indication of someone who believes they are already worthless and doesn't need to be inspired to feel that way.

 

[rescatooor]

I don't know if anyone cares but of the three languages I speak, all of them distinguish between embarrassment and humiliation. Embarrassment is usually temporary, humiliation might be trauma-inducing, usually because of outside enforcement (laughing audience, someone deliberately putting the victim in the situation).

As mentioned before, the example of The Green Mile would only come off as embarrassment at best, as there is no one laughing at the situation.

I may have participated in some humiliation play in the past. If the experience taught me anything is that some people are willing to read humiliation into situations where it's not even there. Perceived humiliation is as good as actual humiliation.

 

[Bramblethorn]

from my websters:

humiliation: to reduce (someone) to a lower position in one's own eyes or others' eyes : to make (someone) embarrassed

A dictionary is a very useful tool in understanding English, but it's generally unwise to treat a single dictionary definition as the sole arbiter of meaning. Words with emotive baggage are often hard to define precisely, and a dictionary may not have room or time to fully articulate the nuance. In particular, when dealing with such terms, it's often worth checking more than one reference to get a better feel for how the word is used.

"Webster's" is these days a generic name used for many different dictionaries; I think the one you're quoting there is Merriam-Webster. By contrast, Webster's Revised Unabridged gives:

HUMILIATION
Hu*mil`i*a"tion, n. Etym: [L. humiliatio: cf. F. humiliation.]
1. The act of humiliating or humbling; abasement of pride; mortification. Bp. Hopkins.

2. The state of being humiliated, humbled, or reduced to lowliness or submission. The former was a humiliation of Deity; the latter a humiliation of manhood. Hooker.

Wiktionary repeats the Webster's 1913 definition, but also gives for "humiliate":

To injure the dignity and self-respect of.

Cambridge:

the feeling of being ashamed or losing respect for yourself, or an occasion when you have this feeling

Collins:

Humiliation is the embarrassment and shame you feel when someone makes you appear stupid, or when you make a mistake in public.
...
A humiliation is an occasion or a situation in which you feel embarrassed and ashamed.

Wikipedia:

Humiliation is the abasement of pride, which creates mortification or leads to a state of being humbled or reduced to lowliness or submission. It is an emotion felt by a person whose social status, either by force or willingly, has just decreased.[1] It can be brought about through intimidation, physical or mental mistreatment or trickery, or by embarrassment if a person is revealed to have committed a socially or legally unacceptable act

Humiliation is certainly related to embarrassment; it might even be accurate to say that all humiliation is embarrassment. But it doesn't follow that all embarrassment is humiliation. As those examples (including your own) suggest, "humiliation" comes with connotations of loss of status or respect, in one's own eyes or others', whereas "embarrassment" doesn't automatically imply that.

For instance, take this story about the inventor of the polio vaccine: "Jonas Salk was suffering under fame’s heavy load... one question always hovered: What great feat would he accomplish next? If Salk submitted any new data, it made headlines, embarrassing him."

Or this: "Billie Eilish won record of the year at the Grammy Awards on Sunday for the second time in a row — a feat that she described as 'really embarrassing.'"

You would never see "humiliating" used to replace "embarrassing" in these contexts, because their embarrassment doesn't come with that loss of status/respect.

 

[XerXesXu]

I may be talking to myself, but I haven't quite lost it yet.

I never expected to post a story on Lit again, but this thread has interested me sufficiently to post something short which incorporates anecdotal evidence of behaviour shaping by reward, in the very obvious context of economic advantage. I also allude to other rewards of which I've seen evidence.

I submitted a story called 'Squealers' today for publication in the NC/R category. I never thought I'd submit there, but the interests of science require it. It's short, but it contains processes I've seen in action, and anecdotal evidence I've received ex rel eg: anal whores about the acquisition of the kink. It's not subtle.

I'll post a link when it's published, if it's published.

‘Squealers” is up. It’s a mash-up of anecdotal evidence I’ve witnessed of behaviour shaping by reward; financial reward then transferring to emotional reward.

https://www.literotica.com/s/squealers

This is an interesting Social-Darwinian theory of cuckoldry.

https://www.blacktowhite.net/threads/the-science-of-cuckold-marriages.13464/

Simply as information, I scored 88% vanilla on that BDSM test, I’m a bit of a voyeur (74%) but have little interest in power-play or role-playing, however, if a girl asks I won’t refuse.

 

[verycuriouswriter]

I imagine some of the disconnects occurring in this thread stem from personal biases, preconceived notions and other interfering hangups - as they often do.

Simon posted an excellent summary early on regarding different motivations. Others followed up with additions. They acknowledge the complex gamut we are working with.

It is perhaps even more complex. Or maybe just much more basic.

For example, imagine that some may enjoy humiliation play because of the dominant half of the equation. Or maybe both - it's the ratio of power between dominants and subs that readers find engrossing.

Consider the story of "The Short Happy Life of Francis Macomber", where cuckoldry and humiliation are clear themes we can all agree on - though not necessarily the central ones. This story was very popular and is considered by many as one of Hemingway's greats, and we have to ask ourselves why.

A quick google search finds this: http://www.cuckoldsforum.com/index.php?threads/ernest-hemingway-femdom-and-cuckoldry.3022/ There are many others as well.

As you explore them, it forces you to think about what makes these themes of humiliation play in their media so engaging for so many.

For this work, it ideally would have had something to do with the title - "the short happy life". Personally, while I always enjoyed the story, I never found the implied psychological segue between submissive and potential dominant convincing or even that imaginative. Really, it was as jarring and shallow as anything you might find on literotica.

Hemingway had a seed of an idea, but insecurities about how he wanted to be perceived most likely kept him from pursuing it. Or maybe it was just laziness. It's unfortunate as it should have been close to the heart of the tale and a more persuasive transition with staging context would have made it's greatness inarguable.