Protocol vs. Chivalry

[il mio angelo]

This is just a mere curiosity of mine, one of which there is no right or wrong, just preference I suppose. I have known two Doms very closely, and they both could not be more opposite from one another.

The first believes that his sub/slave should never enter a room before him, never climb the stairs ahead of him, and should always walk a half of a step behind him unless otherwise instructed.

The second Dom believes in the ladies first approach when entering a room or restaurant, and climbing the stairs (his reasoning being that he would catch her if she fell).

So I guess my question is, although a sub may be at times treated like a slut, or servant, is chivalry a contradiction in terms in BDSM?

I should note that this scenario applies to a Male Dom, and female sub/slave, however, as a question to the female Dommes, do you expect chivalry from your male sub/slaves?

 

[bunny bondage]

doms care for their subs in many different ways, and display their dominance differently as well. some do it by demeaning the sub and making them walk two steps behind, kneel whenever in the dom's presence, whereas others treat a sub like valued property, showing her off and acting protective. but as for chivalry's place in bdsm, i'd say that, for me at least, it does belong.

 

[navarre]

doms care for their subs in many different ways,
and display their dominance differently as well.
How very true bunny.


some do it by demeaning the sub and making them walk two steps behind, kneel whenever in the dom's presence,


However, just because a Dominant requires his sub to display her submissiveness in such a manner does NOT necessairly mean he is demeaning her nor does it mean she is not his most valued posession.

whereas others treat a sub like valued property, showing her off and acting protective. but as for chivalry's place in bdsm, i'd say that, for me at least, it does belong.

 

[bunny bondage]

nono, i didn't mean demeaning in a bad way! i like to be demeaned sometimes!

 

[navarre]

nono, i didn't mean demeaning in a bad way! i like to be demeaned sometimes!

Understood.

 

[Netzach]

I expect service. That means being attentive to my needs.

However, I do not tolerate any act of "chivalry" that oversteps my personal autonomy or space, as some of the traditional ones might. So opening the door for me, great, but ordering for me at the restaurant or expecting me to withold an opinion or sit to shake hands, not okay.

 

[Cleopatra]

nono, i didn't mean demeaning in a bad way! i like to be demeaned sometimes!

demean

verb: reduce in worth, character, etc.; disgrace; dishonour

Mostly here for the research, so please forgive my asking, but there's a good way to be demeaned?

 

[bunny bondage]

demean

verb: reduce in worth, character, etc.; disgrace; dishonour

Mostly here for the research, so please forgive my asking, but there's a good way to be demeaned?

hey, if ya never ask, ya never know.

i like to be demeaned sometimes. especially in public. ie: when we're in the bookstore, and i try to wander off only to have him take hold of a pigtail and keep me in place while He continues to browse the titles. or when He thinks i'm walking too slowly and he grabs the back of my neck and propells me forward. or when he lifts up my skirt in the middle of campus to see what panties i'm wearing. that kind of stuff. demeaning, humiliation, call it what you will.

(and yes, for all you curious minds, i'm still with the infamous prof even though i said i was done with him...what can i say, i've got a weakness for the guy. and our relationship has been much more sane lately.)

 

[Cleopatra]

hey, if ya never ask, ya never know.

i like to be demeaned sometimes. especially in public. ie: when we're in the bookstore, and i try to wander off only to have him take hold of a pigtail and keep me in place while He continues to browse the titles. or when He thinks i'm walking too slowly and he grabs the back of my neck and propells me forward. or when he lifts up my skirt in the middle of campus to see what panties i'm wearing. that kind of stuff. demeaning, humiliation, call it what you will.

(and yes, for all you curious minds, i'm still with the infamous prof even though i said i was done with him...what can i say, i've got a weakness for the guy. and our relationship has been much more sane lately.)

I see. Thanks!

 

[catalina_francisco]

demean

verb: reduce in worth, character, etc.; disgrace; dishonour

Mostly here for the research, so please forgive my asking, but there's a good way to be demeaned?

Demeaning, degrading, humiliating, are all good for those of us who enjoy and submit to it, not for general populations. It is also good in that it is an act of submission in itself to allow these acts to display you to the world in a way which may be completely the opposite of the person you are deep inside. It is a way of giving the Dominant the right to make you what they will irrespective of your values, ethics, and morals, which though it may give you a kick, is not always that easy to submit to knowing what others, or even yourself, may be thinking.

For myself it is a daily struggle, especialy as I have lived my life trying to be clear to others about how I see my reality. Master goes out of his way to find acts and tasks which he knows will be completely alien to me, go against many of the principles I hold dear, and as such demonstrate just how completely I accept his ownership of me. In the end though, the enforced acts, no matter how big or small, in general endear the submissive/slave to their Dominant far more than if their submission is based oin choices which are part of who they already are and therefore easy to enact.

Catalina

 

[wolf2002]

It is a matter of taste, I guess, but I think a lady should always be treated like a lady, even if she is His dirty cum slut...

I think its pretty pathetic if a Dom needs his sub to walk three steps behind him, only to confirm his power over her. If this is his way to Dominate her, he doesn;t do a very good job... IMHO a Dom is also her keeper, her guard, so he should watch her back, let her go first, open doors, and make her feel, how submissive she may be, that she is a lady...

BTW, etiquette says a true gentleman should go ahead when climbing the stairs... otherwise he could look under her skirt... one other reason to go second

A male sub should of course ALWAYS treat his Domme like a lady, no, like a Queen... I agree with Netzach that this doesn;t mean he should take the lead. I believe chivalry is not about machoism, it is about paying respect to a lady. I don;t see why this should be any different in BDSM relations...

Wolf

 

[JupitersGirl]

Being treated with chivalry in public settings serves to heighten the intensity of being treated like a slut in private settings.

 

[il mio angelo]

OK, now that I have a few thoughts here from others, I guess I will give mine. Perhaps I should have made this thread a poll, because as I mentioned, there is no right or wrong response... merely preference.

I myself enjoy being treated like a lady in public. I love to feel feminine, and at times child like in the presence of a Dom. I tend to like the best of both worlds, so to speak... I will explain. I have often envisioned a scenario that has me dressed classy and elegant, a sexy (not slutty) black dress, a choker of pearls perhaps, thigh highs with the seam up the back, and black stilettos. To the vanilla world I look like every other woman out to dinner, but underneath I am anything but. Maybe I have my breasts bound in a single loop each, maybe my wireless remote controlled vibrator is discreetly tucked inside me (the control in his pocket for some fun and teasing), and of course there is a plug nestled deep in my bottom. He would open doors for me, and pull out my chair, maybe hitting the button on the remote as I pass by or sit. Maybe at some point during the meal he would have me go to the ladies room to remove my panties, and have me discreetly pass them to him under the table upon my return. When dinner is over he could open the car door for me, but as I go to get in, he would give that plug a little prod to remind me of it's, and his presence. The car ride could then take many turns and twists, and there in private I could be his little slut... So I guess I do like both sides of the coin.

Just my thoughts, and there are plenty more where they came from..

Thank you everyone for answering.

 

[Bikewer]

Hehe- In Korea, prior to the war, females walked respectfully several paces behind the male. Post-war, with the proliferation of minefields, this practice was reversed.....

 

[Netzach]

The scenario described is very popular, very. Almost 99% of the Doms I've met subscribe to this "lady on the street slut in the bedroom" kind of dichotomy.

I see a completely put-together femsub and I personally always want to fuck her up a bit. Put her in the evening gown, then MAKE her add a toilet paper streamer to her shoe. Disallow her to even *look* at the waiter, or anyone else. Make her go out directly from having woken up, not a hair fixed or even a tooth brushed, to go get MY morning starbucks.

Being beautiful is a beautiful woman's safety, it's the LAST thing that she wants to give up, and it's the thing that takes the highest confidence to be willing to give up. First you have to feel beautiful. Then you have to realize that doesn't mean ANYTHING.

 

[Quint]

The scenario described is very popular, very. Almost 99% of the Doms I've met subscribe to this "lady on the street slut in the bedroom" kind of dichotomy.

I see a completely put-together femsub and I personally always want to fuck her up a bit. Put her in the evening gown, then MAKE her add a toilet paper streamer to her shoe. Disallow her to even *look* at the waiter, or anyone else. Make her go out directly from having woken up, not a hair fixed or even a tooth brushed, to go get MY morning starbucks.

Being beautiful is a beautiful woman's safety, it's the LAST thing that she wants to give up, and it's the thing that takes the highest confidence to be willing to give up. First you have to feel beautiful. Then you have to realize that doesn't mean ANYTHING.

That is fucking amazing.

It's certainly a great deal safer to have a chivalrously-inclined dominant; I see little potential for mindfucking, humiliation, and other emotionally edgy activities when I'm being constantly assured of my place as his precious possession. I'd get bored.

As for walking two steps behind...he snaps and points and I stand there and try to measure my steps to his. Does he need to? I highly doubt it. But it's an instant connection, a moment of force that compels me to remember who I am and whose I am. I don't need to feel like a lady--I need to feel owned.

The best times are when he's all suited up and I'm still in cutoff shorts and a thin little top and we go out. (But it's still sexy, I realize--send me out in highwaters or a dorky theme park shirt and that would immediately be an immensely BAD time. Re: Netzach above.)

 

[ImmortaleAmante]

I Like to always be treated like a lady, but especially by my male subs. Good manners are extremely important to me and something i except at all times.

 

[CavaliereScuro]

That is fucking amazing.

Amazing? Yes, imagine that - there are differences of opinion and preference in BDSM relationships. Who would have ever thought that possible?

It's certainly a great deal safer to have a chivalrously-inclined dominant; I see little potential for mindfucking, humiliation, and other emotionally edgy activities when I'm being constantly assured of my place as his precious possession. I'd get bored.

I don't see how a little chivalry equates to an absence of mindfucking, humiliation, etc. That suggests to me that the two cannot coexist. Isn't that the equivalent of saying that a sub having a hard limit, no blood play for instance, equates to an absence of submission?

As for walking two steps behind...he snaps and points and I stand there and try to measure my steps to his. Does he need to? I highly doubt it. But it's an instant connection, a moment of force that compels me to remember who I am and whose I am. I don't need to feel like a lady--I need to feel owned.

I've never had a problem with a sub or slave needing to be reminded who she is and who she belongs to so I cannot comment on the need to reinforce the thought with finger snapping and having her walking two steps behind me.

I think with the proper training a sub can often feel like a lady and still feel owned. Just as she can feel like a whore slut and still feel loved.

So my point is that, as il mio angelo said, there is no right
or wrong. It is all a matter of preference.

 

[Quint]

That is fucking amazing.

Amazing? Yes, imagine that - there are differences of opinion and preference in BDSM relationships. Who would have ever thought that possible?

You misunderstood me. I was merely expressing my admiration of an eloquent and provoking thought.

As to the rest, I was not addressing occasional acts of chivalry but a dominant who feels he must always treat his submissive like a lady. I find it hard to imagine that I could simultaneously feel like a gem upon a velvet cushion and a cheap whore. That was also the type of mindfucking I referred to--plays upon my concept of self-worth, which again I don't believe is possible given a completely cherishing, tender, "I only beat you because I love you" dominant. My opinion.

 

[CavaliereScuro]

As to the rest, I was not addressing occasional acts of chivalry but a dominant who feels he must always treat his submissive like a lady. I find it hard to imagine that I could simultaneously feel like a gem upon a velvet cushion and a cheap whore. That was also the type of mindfucking I referred to--plays upon my concept of self-worth, which again I don't believe is possible given a completely cherishing, tender, "I only beat you because I love you" dominant. My opinion.

Seems I did misunderstand - since the original and subsequent posts spoke of chivalrous examples of behavior such as opening doors, not walking ahead of a sub etc. one would think it was implied that we were referring to occassional acts of chivalry and not a constant way of treating a sub.

Also, I have found that occasionally raising a sub atop a velvet cushion makes for a very pleasurable experience for me when it is time to push them off that comfy little pillow head first into the role of cheap whore slut....and I believe it also unmistakably qualifies as a major mindfuck for the tumbling little sub.

Just my opinion.

 

[s'lara]

The scenario described is very popular, very. Almost 99% of the Doms I've met subscribe to this "lady on the street slut in the bedroom" kind of dichotomy.

I see a completely put-together femsub and I personally always want to fuck her up a bit. Put her in the evening gown, then MAKE her add a toilet paper streamer to her shoe. Disallow her to even *look* at the waiter, or anyone else. Make her go out directly from having woken up, not a hair fixed or even a tooth brushed, to go get MY morning starbucks.

Being beautiful is a beautiful woman's safety, it's the LAST thing that she wants to give up, and it's the thing that takes the highest confidence to be willing to give up. First you have to feel beautiful. Then you have to realize that doesn't mean ANYTHING.

eve (evesdream) nailed something like this in a post recently. The armor ... the protective shell of styled hair, makeup and clothes affords some sense of comfort in our own skin. It is stripping (pardon the euphemism) to have that armor smudged ... makes one naked and opens up the imperfections for others to see. Places a stamp on your innards so to speak.

i hope eve doesn't mind my reproducing her post here, but i thought it relevant:

This is one of the mild one's i've been having. It involves being forced when greeting him at the door, to kneel down and peck his crotch with my lips, that's all.

It's most effective in a fantasy where i'm dressed to the 9s in preparation for some more or less black tie affair and coming to him quite confident of the dazzling effect of my couture. Sure, i have been channeling Lakshmi for the day but i imagine it would warm him to the cockles to remind me of how to greet him, then.

I'm not sure why this is such an exciting little daydream for me. i think that the gesture simply encapsulates a reminder of my place in the scheme of things, and whose chassis will be used for the benefit and service of whose. That and there would be no way to coast through the evening afterwards without bearing that knowledge. I experience the fantasy as very humbling

There isn't a thing wrong with courtesy if it is the Dominant's desire to be courteous. If it is not the Dominant's desire to treat their sub/slave/bottom in a chivalrous manner, so be it. Such behavior is always at their discretion, whether it suits the sub/slave/bottom or not.

i think it interesting to imagine a sub in deep need of objectification and having that need ... twisted. Instead of humiliation and rough use, the sub/slave/bottom is treated like Eliza Doolittle attending her first dance. Imagine the squirming need to be used and only receiving the finest treatment a lady can. The chilvary used as a tool of torment. That's what i call having your cake and getting it shoved down your throat with a whispered "Would the lady like more?" Heh.

lara

 

[AnelizeDarkEyes]

Cool thread angel. I never have given this one much thought, because honestly, I'm just as liable to open the door for Him as He is for me. It's kind of based on who gets there first. *grin*

Ok. So we're not much for protocol and ritual, I'll give you that. LOL. But it works for us. He treats me respectfully in public, as I do Him. I love those moments though, as Bunny said, when He pushes that humiliation button. It's a favorite of mine, and publicly stretching that limit can be scary and exciting and thrilling and defining all at once.

Protocol? Chivalry? Neither? Both.



~anelize

 

[lilredwolph]

in my present world things are kinda differantly twisted

in public i walk 2 steps behind Daddy on His right side (normally), He will usually have the front of my shirt in His hand. my eyes are to be cast downward not making eye contact with anybody, i can make eye contact if i am directly spoken to but my answers and eye contact are to be short, unless it is Daddy speaking to me, than i may keep eye contact with Him until i am given the singal to cast my eyes downward again. He does not open doors or pull out chairs for me, He will signal me to do those things for Him.

in privite He opens doors, pulls out chairs and i normally enter rooms before Him. and if we are walking we walk side by side or i am a step in front of Him.

He likes to keep me in my place while in public, and let me know i am cared about in privite

 

[il mio angelo]

Cool thread angel. I never have given this one much thought, because honestly, I'm just as liable to open the door for Him as He is for me. It's kind of based on who gets there first. *grin*

Thank you anelize....

I agree with you. I wouldn't want to be treated like a porcelain doll. If I get to the door first, and as long as he hasn't told me *not* to open doors, I would certainly open it for him. Just as I have no issue opening car doors for him first, especially if I am driving (something no man ever let's me do - I am a scary driver- lol)

I also have to say that I don't think that I would feel humiliated or even 'less of a person' if I went second through a door, or up the stairs, but it is nice to, for example, go up the stairs first... especially if he has a crop or a paddle in hand behind me.

 

[AngelicAssassin]

... i think it interesting to imagine a sub in deep need of objectification and having that need ... twisted. Instead of humiliation and rough use, the sub/slave/bottom is treated like Eliza Doolittle attending her first dance. Imagine the squirming need to be used and only receiving the finest treatment a lady can. The chilvary used as a tool of torment. That's what i call having your cake and getting it shoved down your throat with a whispered "Would the lady like more?" Heh.

lara

Thank you ... i couldn't have said it better myself.

Never discount the multiple levels upon which a Dominant's mind can work.