Proposed UK Legislation a threat to BDSM?

[oggbashan]

I'm not a regular in this forum. I'm usually resident in the Author's Hangout, but I can't see any reference here to the proposed UK laws on portrayal of violent BDSM.

The UK Government is considering banning depictions of violent BDSM whether real or staged and whether by consent or not. I don't wholly understand the implications - perhaps regulars in this forum will.

This is a website about the proposal: Backlash.

If you are already aware of this, I apologise for disturbing your activities. Please resume whatever you were doing before reading this.

Og (retreating hurriedly to safer ground...)

 

[catalina_francisco]

You're not disturbing us Og, and are welcome here anytime. We did have a couple of discussions on it last year which were interesting. If I find them again I will post the links here. It is disturbing this is possible, or even suggested in the so-called enlightened and advanced 21st century.

Catalina

 

[myinnerslut]

Og (retreating hurriedly to safer ground...)

safe?? we're safe..... mostly


on a more serious note though, it is really frightening that some legislators who dont know us or what we do or how we do it can make a law that can change how we do things. does anyone know if this is something to be seriously concerned about ir is it going to blow over?

 

[catalina_francisco]

safe?? we're safe..... mostly


on a more serious note though, it is really frightening that some legislators who dont know us or what we do or how we do it can make a law that can change how we do things. does anyone know if this is something to be seriously concerned about ir is it going to blow over?

For the UK it is to be seriously concerned about. If it comes into full effect, they will have the power to seize your PC and charge you if any images which they deem as violent and/or abusive (even your private photos) are found on it. I believe it is already illegal for sites in the UK to display such images and with this new move they have asked if credit card companies and offshore sites who had UK residents apply for membership to sites outside the UK which display such material, to hand over records which would help them trace and prosecute those residents.

Catalina

 

[the captians wench]

Nice to see you in these parts Ogg.

I remember a discusion about this last year. It's kind of hard to believe, but I also remember seeing a news cast on one of mom's stations about it. It may have been the bbc but I'm not sure. It's the taking of your personal pc and such that I find so...disterbing.

 

[catalina_francisco]

This and this were 2 of the threads about it from 2006.

Catalina

 

[liberatedslave]

Hello, newbie former lurker here.

Things like this always make me wonder. There is such a pre-occupation with images and film as though people's minds can actually be legislated against by withdrawing them. As though we're still at the 'monkey see, monkey do' rung of the evolutionary ladder.

Personally I have read scenes in books that are just as shocking and titillating as visual pornography, whether BDSM related or not. (I must confess I've never seen anything such as 'snuff' and am certain that it needs banning to help prevent its production in the first place). The fact still remains that any adult or child can walk into any library or bookshop and be almost completely free of censorship.

The case for images made privately in the home by consenting adults for their own exclusive viewing is a very worrying one. No law has been broken in the making of the images, no member of the general public is destined to see them and yet it is possible for these images to suddenly be classed as illegal!? That to me is a very frightening suggestion.

Catalina is right in one of the cited threads where she remarks that the BDSM community is being equated with child pornographers. That and rape are the only other allegations that would warrant highly personal material being deemed illegal.

 

[catalina_francisco]

Hello, newbie former lurker here.

Things like this always make me wonder. There is such a pre-occupation with images and film as though people's minds can actually be legislated against by withdrawing them. As though we're still at the 'monkey see, monkey do' rung of the evolutionary ladder.

Personally I have read scenes in books that are just as shocking and titillating as visual pornography, whether BDSM related or not. (I must confess I've never seen anything such as 'snuff' and am certain that it needs banning to help prevent its production in the first place). The fact still remains that any adult or child can walk into any library or bookshop and be almost completely free of censorship.

The case for images made privately in the home by consenting adults for their own exclusive viewing is a very worrying one. No law has been broken in the making of the images, no member of the general public is destined to see them and yet it is possible for these images to suddenly be classed as illegal!? That to me is a very frightening suggestion.

Catalina is right in one of the cited threads where she remarks that the BDSM community is being equated with child pornographers. That and rape are the only other allegations that would warrant highly personal material being deemed illegal.

What always amuses me is these people who make such laws feel they are so intelligent and thus capable of protecting us from ourselves, probably couldn't give an honest answer if asked how images and writing of the pornographic and/or violent nature came to be if they are reliant or seeing it in books and movies to get the initial idea. Bit like the chicken or egg discussion though I am sure they would sidestep it as long as possible while trying to convince us of their continued greater insight.

Catalina

 

[liberatedslave]

It's the same argument for violent acts caused by violent films.

There was a case in the UK a few years ago where a child called James Bulger (who was about 3 or 4) was killed by two boys of 10 or 11 years old. They had previously watched a horror film called 'childsplay' that was an 18 certificate film. Some of the things they did to this child (which were quite disturbing) were clearly mirroring the film. Cue politicians loudly denouncing horror films as evil and to blame for the murder.

How exactly is the film industry responsible for two kids watching a clearly unsuitable film that no store would have provided them with? The blame rests with them and their families, nobody else.

Consensual BDSM is no more responsible for rape and abuse than whoever made 'childsplay' was responsible for James Bulger's death.

 

[catalina_francisco]

It's the same argument for violent acts caused by violent films.

There was a case in the UK a few years ago where a child called James Bulger (who was about 3 or 4) was killed by two boys of 10 or 11 years old. They had previously watched a horror film called 'childsplay' that was an 18 certificate film. Some of the things they did to this child (which were quite disturbing) were clearly mirroring the film. Cue politicians loudly denouncing horror films as evil and to blame for the murder.

How exactly is the film industry responsible for two kids watching a clearly unsuitable film that no store would have provided them with? The blame rests with them and their families, nobody else.

Consensual BDSM is no more responsible for rape and abuse than whoever made 'childsplay' was responsible for James Bulger's death.

True. I have had children, and I support those who are raising children now, but I resent the growing trend to legislate our way of life by the criteria of responsibilities and interesting activities related to raising families. Why should consenting adults have to live a childlike existence in their own homes and why does our whole culture have to modeled on child friendly only realities?

Catalina

 

[MasterPhoenix]

I could see something like that happening in the states with the whole Neocon pro morality bullshit...

People need to live and let live...

 

[subtleone]

As a UK resident this worries me somewhat. How can what I choose to do in a totally consensual, safe and private way be against the law? I personally have no interest in letting blood or permanent marks (which could be considered dangerous) but still I could be prosecuted? He is not harming me, just because not everyone likes pain shouldn't make it illegal. The police must have better things to do with their time than chase after 2 consensual adults indulging in a little bit of what they enjoy. Reminds me of when it was illegal to be gay...seems like a step backwards to me.

 

[Netzach]

True. I have had children, and I support those who are raising children now, but I resent the growing trend to legislate our way of life by the criteria of responsibilities and interesting activities related to raising families. Why should consenting adults have to live a childlike existence in their own homes and why does our whole culture have to modeled on child friendly only realities?

Catalina

There are a good number of studies which find no correalation whatsoever between violent viewing and violent actions. Contrary to oft quoted stats: I read a nice deconstruction once of the manipulations in some of the more well known studies which would have us think playing a few rounds of Grand Theft Auto will make psychopaths of us all. If you really worry about media and violent action ban the Bible.

 

[Arianna22]

I know I havent really been around long, but I, to date, have always found books and stories effect me more than videos, and not just with BDSM. So what will they do next? Raid our houses to find 'Unsuitable books'? Have 'approved reading lists'? It defies all common sense.

I think that if an activity is between consensual adults then whats the problem? It doesnt affect anyone else apart from those people and surely cant be doing harm. Dont the police and the government have more important things to worry about?!

 

[FurryFury]

There are a good number of studies which find no correalation whatsoever between violent viewing and violent actions. Contrary to oft quoted stats: I read a nice deconstruction once of the manipulations in some of the more well known studies which would have us think playing a few rounds of Grand Theft Auto will make psychopaths of us all. If you really worry about media and violent action ban the Bible.

I've always agreed strongly with this. There are going to be nuts who blame anything for the horrible things they do. That don't make it true though. It does make for an easy answer, for some that don't wish to think about it too much and do wish to condemn certain things.

Fury

 

[catalina_francisco]

There are a good number of studies which find no correalation whatsoever between violent viewing and violent actions. Contrary to oft quoted stats: I read a nice deconstruction once of the manipulations in some of the more well known studies which would have us think playing a few rounds of Grand Theft Auto will make psychopaths of us all. If you really worry about media and violent action ban the Bible.

You won't get any argument from me. I resent being censored as an adult on a child criteria simply because some people do not take the responsibility of parenting seriously, and it wins votes for politicians who are into sensationalising everything and placing blame other than where it belongs.

Catalina

 

[MasterPhoenix]

I can't speak for the UK becuase I have never had the joy of setting foot on British soil, but here in the US there is a definate neo-puritanicalism that is running rampant, where politicians feel it is their duty to legislate morality. (But these same l;egislators feel it is moral to allow corporations to pay slave wages.)

As somoen who is both intellectual and kinky this is a disturbing trend.

 

[Netzach]

You won't get any argument from me. I resent being censored as an adult on a child criteria simply because some people do not take the responsibility of parenting seriously, and it wins votes for politicians who are into sensationalising everything and placing blame other than where it belongs.

Catalina

It's very weird to go back to NYC and see sleazy old Times Square dolled up like some corporate Blade Runner weird ass Disney's NYC Land ride.

 

[liberatedslave]

I've always agreed strongly with this. There are going to be nuts who blame anything for the horrible things they do. That don't make it true though. It does make for an easy answer, for some that don't wish to think about it too much and do wish to condemn certain things.

Exactly, it's knee-jerk morality. The polictcally correct brigade is shy of overtly denouncing anything, while the moral right would ban everything remotely illegal, immoral or fattening overnight. It's all about being seen to be doing something.

"I know! Let's ban all BDSM porn and maybe the tabloids will momentarily forget the fact that convicted paedophiles are released to live in public under government protection at taxpayer expense and that only 1 in 20 rape allegations (in the UK) end in conviction because the legal system makes it almost impossible."

We're just a smokescreen.

 

[D's mariposa]

What bothers me is the infantilization of society by our respective governments. The Shrub years have made us seriously look into returning to the UK, but researching the option showed me that we'd have similar difficulities with a sexier accent. It seems that our government doesn't respect the citizenry's ability to make an informed decision about what's best for themselves. There will always be a few wild cards like the guy who kidnapped and raped someone in order to make a bondage video, sell it on the internet and get out of debt. He was clearly in the wrong, and was arrested for the crime. But in addition to prosecuting him, they're also scrutinizing bdsm porn as a motivator in the crime, even though most bdsm porn (that I've found) is consentual with consenting adults. Because a small but highly visible sector of society has boundary issues, everyone with similar tastes in porn is facing punitive action. It comes down to civil rights. I don't think that I should have to pay for another man's crime.

 

[catalina_francisco]

This story today seems to be a further threat in terms of personal privacy and is scary to say the least that it is now a precedent to jail based on internet chat room discussion content alone. I certainly would not have liked to see it become a reality that these men carried out their plans, but I find it incredible they can be convicted on nothing more than chat room transcripts, and more so that the one who voluntarily let the police know about it in the first case (he said he was a vigilante out to catch paedophiles, and up to that point the police were oblivious anything was going on) actually got the longest sentence! Could it then be carried through to convict people discussing BDSM type fantasies online which dealt with areas not favoured by the law?

Catalina

 

[KokopelliRises]

I can't speak for the UK becuase I have never had the joy of setting foot on British soil, but here in the US there is a definate neo-puritanicalism that is running rampant, where politicians feel it is their duty to legislate morality. (But these same l;egislators feel it is moral to allow corporations to pay slave wages.)

As somoen who is both intellectual and kinky this is a disturbing trend.

Why I love living in the U.S. of A. Gag. This is what we get for electing conservatives into office. Personally I think that if you want to do something, between two consenting adults, you're perfectly fine.

I know that if I ever have kids I want them to learn the whole truth about life when it is appropriate, speaking of legislating morality. Let's hope this abstinence-only sexual education thing is just a fad. I have hope for our legislature.

 

[RedRiverDude]

There are a good number of studies which find no correalation whatsoever between violent viewing and violent actions. Contrary to oft quoted stats: I read a nice deconstruction once of the manipulations in some of the more well known studies which would have us think playing a few rounds of Grand Theft Auto will make psychopaths of us all. If you really worry about media and violent action ban the Bible.

There are extremist on both sides. I am a moderate myself and can't stand the far left fanatics or the far right fanatics. I think morality should be taught at home.

The younger generation shows absolutely no respect for anyone. I saw a news report of young teen girls beating the crap out of each other over some guy. How stupid. If I was the guy it would have told them both to look elsewhere.

I totally support the right of every adult to do anything they desire as all parties agree. Government does not need to legislate what goes on in our homes.

 

[liberatedslave]

The story about the rape conspiracy convictions is a worrying one. I do feel that if the online BDSM community is threatened to the point where they have to go 'underground' it will be a sad day. Many people have nobody else to discuss the lifestyle with. Surely the issue here is still consent? Those kids could not consent but those of us who practice kink can & will articulate our choices. I hope the government will still be able to tell the difference.

 

[catalina_francisco]

The story about the rape conspiracy convictions is a worrying one. I do feel that if the online BDSM community is threatened to the point where they have to go 'underground' it will be a sad day. Many people have nobody else to discuss the lifestyle with. Surely the issue here is still consent? Those kids could not consent but those of us who practice kink can & will articulate our choices. I hope the government will still be able to tell the difference.

I saw it more as the issue being you didn't actually have to act on anything to still be sent to prison. These guys had never even met each other and claimed it was just fantasy talk. Given the growth of sexual role play online, perhaps it was, maybe it wasn't. The points that concerned me was the guy went to the unsuspecting police with the information he said he had gathered by playing along with them to get it, and he gets a bigger sentence....and if the police had sent him back to keep going with the charade to a point where they actually went out to commit the offence while police staked out the area to catch before they actually did any harm, thus proving it was more than fantasy, then I could understand the guilty verdict and sentencing. The way it is it is no more than words on a screen from 3 men, 2 of whom said it was fantasy, 1 who said he went out as a vigilante to catch online paedophiles and handed the information over to police so they could act on it and then ends up in prison himself. Strangely enough, he seems to have received more punishment for trying to catch paedophiles than those who might actually be one. So does this mean that rape fantasy role play is now open to the same outcome, along with any talk of BDSM activites not sanctioned by the government?

Catalina