Pronouns are fighting me.

[TheWritingGroup]

I'm not asking for advice, I just thought it was funny. (Literally, I keep smiling and/or snorting when I catch myself doing this.)

WIP is a story about a human being abducted by a nonhuman, but humanoid species. At the beginning (where I am now) he can't identify sex (or gender) in individuals of this species. I decided to use "It" as their pronoun until he learns to tell them apart. (It's tight third person on the kidnapped human.)

Except, I know that this one character is female. It's a key plot point for later. My fingers just keep typing "her" and "she". I've already corrected this about 20 times. Thanks, part of my brain that cares so much about gendered pronouns, for wasting my time.

-Eddie

 

[TarnishedPenny]

We should grateful, Eddie, that at least we are working with English, where essentially only the pronouns are gendered. We could be floundering through French, where every noun is either masculine or feminine or, worse, German with masculine, feminine and neutral.

 

[AwkwardMD]

I'm not asking for advice, I just thought it was funny. (Literally, I keep smiling and/or snorting when I catch myself doing this.)

WIP is a story about a human being abducted by a nonhuman, but humanoid species. At the beginning (where I am now) he can't identify sex (or gender) in individuals of this species. I decided to use "It" as their pronoun until he learns to tell them apart. (It's tight third person on the kidnapped human.)

Except, I know that this one character is female. It's a key plot point for later. My fingers just keep typing "her" and "she". I've already corrected this about 20 times. Thanks, part of my brain that cares so much about gendered pronouns, for wasting my time.

-Eddie

Use that. Have your POV character make that mistake in their head 1) as foreshadowing and 2) to let your characters be imperfect while striving to be better. Lots of people get pronouns wrong, most often (in my experience) innocently enough. It'd be good to see more art out there that lets their characters make this mistake with some grace so we can all feel like it's okay to fuck up.

 

[AwkwardMD]

We should grateful, Eddie, that at least we are working with English, where essentially only the pronouns are gendered. We could be floundering through French, where every noun is either masculine or feminine or, worse, German with masculine, feminine and neutral.

I took 2 years of German in college, and the thing that stuck with me the most was the absurdity of a teacher insisting to me that the table is inherently masculine (der tisch). Some things are so fundamentally absurd that I never really get past them.

 

[TarnishedPenny]

I took 2 years of German in college, and the thing that stuck with me the most was the absurdity of a teacher insisting to me that the table is inherently masculine (der tisch). Some things are so fundamentally absurd that I never really get past them.

You lasted on more year than Ich. Mind you, French can be bewildering, as when the noun 'vagina' is masculine (hoi polloi, pray hold the obvious comments).

 

[TheWritingGroup]

You lasted on more year than Ich. Mind you, French can be bewildering, as when the noun 'vagina' is masculine (hoi polloi, pray hold the obvious comments).

What body part did you want me to hold, again?

-Eddie

 

[TarnishedPenny]

Did I not love you so dearly, I would reply, "Your tongue."

 

[TheLobster]

The linguistic imperialism of native English speakers who deride other languages where grammatical gender is much more prevalent and useful doesn’t cease to amaze me.

You clearly don’t know what you’re missing, and you very likely never will.

 

[onehitwanda]

We should grateful, Eddie, that at least we are working with English, where essentially only the pronouns are gendered. We could be floundering through French, where every noun is either masculine or feminine or, worse, German with masculine, feminine and neutral.

Romani eunt domo!

(I've ranted about Latin elsewhere)

 

[TheWritingGroup]

The linguistic imperialism of native English speakers who deride other languages where grammatical gender is much more prevalent and useful doesn’t cease to amaze me.

Useful?

 

[Kumquatqueen]

Recently been teaching some beginners' German, and explaining that all nouns ending in -chen or -lein are neuter (das). Which means that to answer the question 'Siehst du das Mädchen?' (do you see the girl?) the grammatical answer is 'Ich sehe es." (I see it)

By the time I'd done A-level German plus a couple more years, I got to the point of almost always being able to tell the gender of a noun, because there are patterns of how words divvy up. Almost anything ending in -e is feminine, all professions are masculine, foreign words are neuter, anything ending in -heit, -keit or -ung is feminine. It's only der vs das words that can be tricky, and lots of native speakers get confused with some of them, especially loan words. And grammatically, most of the articles and adjective endings are the same for both.

(Yes, German has 54 adjective endings to learn - 3 genders plus plural, for 4 cases, and for using after the definite, indefinite and no articles - but over half of them are -en and you can mumble most of the others if necessary...)

In contrast, verb forms are way easier than in English - none of this 'I go, I am going, I do go, I be going, I have been going, I have gone' all representing the present tense!

 

[Areala-chan]

The linguistic imperialism of native English speakers who deride other languages where grammatical gender is much more prevalent and useful doesn’t cease to amaze me.

You clearly don’t know what you’re missing, and you very likely never will.

I can't tell if this is meant to be taken seriously or not, but as a native English speaker who has studied two languages (Spanish and French) where grammatical gender is much more prevalent and a third (Japanese) where it is not, I've never found utility in the concept of gendered language, and would dearly love to know what I'm missing.

 

[alohadave]

grammatical gender is much more prevalent and useful

How is it useful for a table to have gender?

 

[StillStunned]

How is it useful for a table to have gender?

Do you really want to come home and find your table with its legs in the air?

 

[Omenainen]

For my perspective it doesn’t even make sense for pronouns to have gender, and that’s how I end up with comments like this:

In several of your stories I’ve seen errors in your use of pronouns. His when the story line was a her, him when it should be a her, he instead of she. Proof read more carefully please as it breaks the flow of your narrative.

 

[TheWritingGroup]

For my perspective it doesn’t even make sense for pronouns to have gender, and that’s how I end up with comments like this:

If your signature quote is any indication, your native tongue isn't Indo-European, so presumably English's peculiarities are especially peculiar to you.

And my admiration for learning a language so foreign to yours, so well.

-Eddie

 

[Bramblethorn]

How is it useful for a table to have gender?

Maybe not to you, but wooden tables are intimately involved in the mating habits of certain snakes.

After all, adders need log tables to multiply.

 

[MillieDynamite]

You, (a highly specific) can use these no gender pronouns if you want, "one," "you," "we," and "they." I give you my permission to do so! Also, "them," "their," "nobody," "anyone," "no one," "none," "themselves," "their-selves." "Thing," "creature," "blob," "whatsit."

 

[StillStunned]

Maybe not to you, but wooden tables are intimately involved in the mating habits of certain snakes.

For a moment I thought you were referring to Lord Percy's story of the "old oak table" in Blackadder II.

"Vanished, like an old oak table."

 

[MillieDynamite]

It is also permitted to use they and them in reference to a single individual. However, one must use a plural verb when doing so. Trust me, they told me this when I talked to them last night.

 

[Omenainen]

If your signature quote is any indication, your native tongue isn't Indo-European, so presumably English's peculiarities are especially peculiar to you.

Yeah. Finnish is related to I think Hungarian and Estonian and that’s about it

And my admiration for learning a language so foreign to yours, so well.

Thank you, though I wasn’t trying to humblebrag. Just wanted to point out that even the gendering of pronouns is an added layer of complexity for people coming from languages like mine.

 

[TheWritingGroup]

Thank you, though I wasn’t trying to humblebrag. Just wanted to point out that even the gendering of pronouns is an added layer of complexity for people coming from languages like mine.

I didn't mean anything about you bragging. It's just an impressive thing to do. I've been to Finland, and it felt way more foreign than Germany or France did, because the non-bilingual signs were absolutely not understandable. Any Indo-European language, including Hindi, I can at least recognize a word or two. (The alphabet can be a barrier, of course.)

Luckily, literally every single person in Helsinki except some foreign tourists spoke English.

-Eddie

 

[MillieDynamite]

English has been somewhat of an international language for some time. However, in parts of the American South and Southwest, it isn't the English of the English and their local dialects spattering of words that make people from other parts of the USA scratch their heads. People born and raised in Colorado have a ton of silent t's in their words, such as Moun'ans.

I didn't mean anything about you bragging. It's just an impressive thing to do. I've been to Finland, and it felt way more foreign than Germany or France did, because the non-bilingual signs were absolutely not understandable. Any Indo-European language, including Hindi, I can at least recognize a word or two. (The alphabet can be a barrier, of course.)

Luckily, literally every single person in Helsinki except some foreign tourists spoke English.

-Eddie

 

[TheWritingGroup]

English has been somewhat of an international language for some time. However, in parts of the American South and Southwest, it isn't the English of the English and their local dialects spattering of words that make people from other parts of the USA scratch their heads. People born and raised in Colorado have a ton of silent t's in their words, such as Moun'ans.

And they kept the Old English "hw" sound (as in Beowulf, "hwaet") in words like what and where, lost in almost all other dialects of English.

-Eddie

 

[MillieDynamite]

Then there is the Maine dialect, where many words end in an ah sound—moving my carah!

And they kept the Old English "hw" sound (as in Beowulf, "hwaet") in words like what and where, lost in almost all other dialects of English.

-Eddie