Problems with whore/slut labels?

[Arafura]

Just wanted to get some more opinions on this.

I'm setting up a sort of porn directory, and I feel uncomfortable including sites that refer to the women shown as "whores" and "sluts". I find the terms degrading, and I also think they're just unnecessary.

I know it's an old lament, but why do women who enjoy sex have to be labeled whores and sluts?

I realize that the porn industry, while complicit in propagating this view, is not the source. Many, many people in society view sexually promiscuous women as slutty, with all the dirty/immoral connotations that come along with the word.

To be clear, I know there are women who love the dirty talk - I'm one of them! I'm not talking about women who embrace and enjoy being called slut or whore in the middle of some hot action. I also know there are communities who embrace the word "slut" in a sex-positive sense, defining the word as someone who likes a lot of sex (a la "The Ethical Slut"). But to me, this isn't what these sites are doing. When a banner screams out "WATCH THESE FILTHY SLUTS GET FILLED IN EVERY HOLE" - that hardly seems to endorse a positive view of female sexuality.

Am I making too much of this? Are "whore" and "slut" just used as empty filler jargon for webmasters who are sick of writing "women" or "girls"? Or are these sites hypocritical and dumb, getting sexual pleasure from women's actions but then calling them derogatory names for participating?

Are you offended by the use of "slut", "whore" etc.? Do you shrug your shoulders and accept it as dumbass porn stuff? Do you like it?

Thanks for any and all responses.

 

[S-Des]

My girl loves the terms. It's the first time I've ever used them with a woman (I'm very old-fashioned). Although it took me a while to get used to it, I find that I love it. Think of it like teasing someone without the fear that you could go too far. It adds an interesting element to our sex life. I'm not exactly sure I understand why it has the effect it does on her (just the use of the word will cause her to get aroused), but it's fun for me in a role-playing sort of way.

I think the example you used is obviously meant to be demeaning, as is a lot of sex aimed to the male consumer. Guys who are frustrated with women get turned on (at least to a point) by the thought of controlling or demeaning a woman. I used to believe it was only in the stories where women actually got turned on by it.

 

[Selena_Kitt]

Just wanted to get some more opinions on this.

I'm setting up a sort of porn directory, and I feel uncomfortable including sites that refer to the women shown as "whores" and "sluts". I find the terms degrading, and I also think they're just unnecessary.

I know it's an old lament, but why do women who enjoy sex have to be labeled whores and sluts?

I realize that the porn industry, while complicit in propagating this view, is not the source. Many, many people in society view sexually promiscuous women as slutty, with all the dirty/immoral connotations that come along with the word.

To be clear, I know there are women who love the dirty talk - I'm one of them! I'm not talking about women who embrace and enjoy being called slut or whore in the middle of some hot action. I also know there are communities who embrace the word "slut" in a sex-positive sense, defining the word as someone who likes a lot of sex (a la "The Ethical Slut"). But to me, this isn't what these sites are doing. When a banner screams out "WATCH THESE FILTHY SLUTS GET FILLED IN EVERY HOLE" - that hardly seems to endorse a positive view of female sexuality.

Am I making too much of this? Are "whore" and "slut" just used as empty filler jargon for webmasters who are sick of writing "women" or "girls"? Or are these sites hypocritical and dumb, getting sexual pleasure from women's actions but then calling them derogatory names for participating?

Are you offended by the use of "slut", "whore" etc.? Do you shrug your shoulders and accept it as dumbass porn stuff? Do you like it?

Thanks for any and all responses.

The words whore and slut connote something... it's not just empty filler, it's meant to titillate... you don't see "WATCH THESE FILTHY HOUSEWIVES GET FILLED IN EVERY HOLE!" ... well, you do, but it's a different kind of site.

I love being called his dirty little slut, his nasty little whore... but I also enjoy the use of the word "cunt"... which many women find offensive.

 

[Vermilion]

I think that if these words are accepted and 'calimed' by women as positive words or banned as being degrading then something else will come along to fill it's place.

I remember when Spaz was used as an insult, but that got banned, not people use 'retard' or 'tard' instead. There will always be insults and there's not much that can be done about it.

Perhaps we should just enjoy the words when we're getting down and ignore silly porn sites.

x
V

 

[Arafura]

The words whore and slut connote something... it's not just empty filler, it's meant to titillate... you don't see "WATCH THESE FILTHY HOUSEWIVES GET FILLED IN EVERY HOLE!" ... well, you do, but it's a different kind of site.

I love being called his dirty little slut, his nasty little whore... but I also enjoy the use of the word "cunt"... which many women find offensive.

Hmm...I wouldn't like being called a cunt, but I find it hot in stories.

So, do you find sites referring to women as whores titillating? Or is it just sexy when it's between you and your partner?

 

[Arafura]

Perhaps we should just enjoy the words when we're getting down and ignore silly porn sites.

I do enjoy while getting down...and I wish I could ignore the silly porn sites. I do agree they're silly, but I have to decide whether to include stuff like this or not.

 

[SimonBrooke]

Just wanted to get some more opinions on this.

I'm setting up a sort of porn directory, and I feel uncomfortable including sites that refer to the women shown as "whores" and "sluts". I find the terms degrading, and I also think they're just unnecessary.

I know it's an old lament, but why do women who enjoy sex have to be labeled whores and sluts?

I think the use of these terms tells you a lot not only about the people who run the sites but also about the audience they're trying to appeal to. And I ask you: if they're using those terms, are they people you want to do business with? Are they people you want reciprocal links with? Is their audience an audience you want?

A great deal of so-called 'heterosexual' porn is profoundly misogynistic. A thing I find weird is that so-called lesbian porn - girl/girl images and films - which is usually also made for a male audience, is normally much less misogynistic. I really think there's space in the market for heterosexual hard core porn sites which are as a matter of stated policy female friendly and respectful of their female actors.

I realize that the porn industry, while complicit in propagating this view, is not the source. Many, many people in society view sexually promiscuous women as slutty, with all the dirty/immoral connotations that come along with the word.

To be clear, I know there are women who love the dirty talk - I'm one of them! I'm not talking about women who embrace and enjoy being called slut or whore in the middle of some hot action. I also know there are communities who embrace the word "slut" in a sex-positive sense, defining the word as someone who likes a lot of sex (a la "The Ethical Slut"). But to me, this isn't what these sites are doing. When a banner screams out "WATCH THESE FILTHY SLUTS GET FILLED IN EVERY HOLE" - that hardly seems to endorse a positive view of female sexuality.

I hear you say that you like to be called a slut - but, presumably, you like to be called a slut in a controlled context by a person whom you trust, and whom you know is using the word merely for erotic effect. I think this is like Jews telling Jewish jokes - if they do that's OK, but it's not OK for us to. Similarly it's a completely different thing for your lover, in a safe sexual context, to call you a slut, and it's a completely different thing if a stranger in the street does. Black people can call each other niggers, but white people should not do so.

Am I making too much of this? Are "whore" and "slut" just used as empty filler jargon for webmasters who are sick of writing "women" or "girls"?

No, I don't think you are. I think we need to treat those words like we have historically treated 'nigger'.

Or are these sites hypocritical and dumb, getting sexual pleasure from women's actions but then calling them derogatory names for participating?

I don't think they're being hypocritical and dumb. I think they are targetting a particular demographic, and I think it's a demographic I would not want to have anything to do with.

For what it's worth, that attitude crops up in some stories posted to Literotica, particularly in Non-consent/Reluctance. Most of my stories are in NC/R, too, but a lot of what is there I find utterly repellent.

 

[Pure]

the pornsters appeal to the young male population and use its categories. these males are in the grip of madonna vs. whore categories.

unfortunately you enlightened women are not significant consumers (within the whole picture) of porn images.

that said, the idea of 'clean sex' just doesn't go anywhere (though I'm not sure if arafura is endorsing it or hoping for it). there is the old exchange-joke. Is sex dirty? Only if you're doing it right.

 

[SimonBrooke]

Hmm...I wouldn't like being called a cunt, but I find it hot in stories.

So, do you find sites referring to women as whores titillating? Or is it just sexy when it's between you and your partner?

May I ask why not?

I would have great difficulty calling a woman a slut or a whore, but I don't have a problem, in a sexual context, with calling a woman a 'cunt'. There are moments in sex when we are focussed on our genitals, on the feelings and experience of our genitals, when we are pretty much just 'cock' and 'cunt' in that moment. It doesn't feel to me that that word is, in a sexual context, particularly value laden.

In the street, or between strangers, is a different matter of course.

 

[Arafura]

May I ask why not?

I would have great difficulty calling a woman a slut or a whore, but I don't have a problem, in a sexual context, with calling a woman a 'cunt'. There are moments in sex when we are focussed on our genitals, on the feelings and experience of our genitals, when we are pretty much just 'cock' and 'cunt' in that moment. It doesn't feel to me that that word is, in a sexual context, particularly value laden.

In the street, or between strangers, is a different matter of course.

Sorry - that wasn't clear at all on my part! I was responding to Selena's statement that many women find the term offensive.

I would definitely find "cunt" hot in the consensual circumstance you describe. I find it offensive when used outside that context: on the street, being called a cunt as an insult.

Thank you for all your thoughts. You are very eloquently expressing why I instinctively recoil against these sites and am inclined NOT to do any business with them.

 

[TxRad]

The crux of the matter is just that is it between friends/lovers or between strangers.

The word whore has it's place if someone is selling their ass but as a general statement it is silly but it gets the websites message across easily and quickly.

The word slut I've always had a problem with from a personal view point. I was raised a gentleman and taught this kind of language toward women was not used. However (there always has to be a however or there's no discussion) as of late through my writing and interaction on Lit and other places, I have found the place and time for this word. Dirty talk in general and role play specifically are a couple, titillation in a public place is another. Some women like it from a lover and want to act out their fantasies or just be themselves.

Using the word as a catch all is more for it's shock value than anything. An attention grabber.

Most Pro Porn sites as apposed to Amateur sites use shock value to grab customers, they usually have very little time and space to do it any other way.

As for going with these sites or not is up to you and probably should be based on more than just certain words, content would be a better thing.

My two cents worth

 

[Arafura]

Using the word as a catch all is more for it's shock value than anything. An attention grabber.

Most Pro Porn sites as apposed to Amateur sites use shock value to grab customers, they usually have very little time and space to do it any other way.

As for going with these sites or not is up to you and probably should be based on more than just certain words, content would be a better thing.

I think your framing of the word as an "attention grabber" is similar to the view of my business partner.

In terms of content, I'm screening out offensive (well, offensive to me) content (abuse, extreme, racist etc.). The sites I'm talking about just show regular hardcore stuff, but refer to the women as sluts and whores.

 

[slyc_willie]

There's this culture among men -- and it seems to have grown with the induction of the Internet -- to use terms like 'slut' and 'whore' as a way of 'owning' women. It degrades them, turns them into something less than they are.

Don't get me wrong; I've known women who want to have their hair pulled and butt smacked, and really get off on being called a slut when having sex. But if I were to call them up and say, 'Hey, slut, what are you doing tonight?' I'd get a dial tone as an answer.

A porn site that advertises 'we have the hottest sluts on the net' is catering to the fragile male ego. A 'slut' isn't choosy; she'll fuck anybody, and that is appealing to many men who don't have the ability or energy to try and pick up a woman in a bar, nightclub, bookstore, Starbucks, whatever.

It all comes down to the fantasy aspect, especially when it comes to turning apparently sweet and innocent girls into 'cock-craving whores.' Streetblowjobs.com is a good example of this.

 

[Pure]

it is a paradox of these males who long for the 'available' woman, that she must be degraded, when found.

the slut is above all, available; just the slightest wish, or 'eye'--e.g. from the pizza delivery man-- and she'll do it.

at the same time, degradation in the name of love is a powerfully attractive scenario to some women.

 

[Varian P]

At the other end of the spectrum are the so-called 'altporn' sites which, among other things, tend to focus on giving control over representation to the models, to some degree, whether by putting the camera in the models' hands (beautifulagony, ishotmyself) or by allowing the models to speak for themselves in model bios, blogs, and in forums when these sites include an online community dimensions (suicidegirls is the most widely-known example, but there's also manicjane, fatalbeauty, nofauxxx and others).

No doubt the models themselves use language which they think will make them desireable and popular on the site, which includes things like responding to a question about occupation with retorts like "cocksucker," but it's interesting to see an alternative model where self-representation is possible on some levels.

Another cool thing about a lot of these sites is that they have both male and female models (most of these sites are at the soft-core end of the spectrum, so there's not much sex depicted beyond masturbation). Some of them are also queer-positive (nofauxxx explicity so) in that they don't fetishize/compartmentalize straight versus gay, girls versus boys, and some feature transgendered models, again without fetishizing.

Since you're obviously approaching this with a socially conscious attitude, one thing you could do is highlight sites you feel are especially positive in their portrayal of models and sexuality.

 

[Arafura]

Since you're obviously approaching this with a socially conscious attitude, one thing you could do is highlight sites you feel are especially positive in their portrayal of models and sexuality.

Varian,
This is my hope. Thank you for all the great links!

I'm trying to carve out a sex-positive corner in what SimonBrooke accurately described as an overwhelmingly misogynistic industry. I love sexy porn, and I want to be able to share it with others. I'm in the process of figuring out where I'm drawing the lines.

I don't want to promote only sites that I find sexy, as that is far too limiting. I'm fine with stuff I can vaguely understand but would never want to do (consensual golden showers, for example). I'm fine with most stuff where the participants are enjoying whatever sexual activity is portrayed. I just don't think the women in the scene should be called derogatory names for it.

 

[tanyachrs]

I'm fine with most stuff where the participants are enjoying whatever sexual activity is portrayed. I just don't think the women in the scene should be called derogatory names for it.

Just wanted to say I'm completely with you on that. I think it's a sign that the double standard is still alive and well. "Good" women still aren't allowed to enjoy sex (and certainly not hot, dirty sex) but women are now allowed to enjoy being "bad". I'm not sure it's a step forward. I don't think having sex, or enjoying sex, is bad and so I don't feel any need to be verbally abused for doing it.

I know for some people the dirty words themselves are a turn-on but I worry it's because some women feel like they have to be punished for what they're doing in order to enjoy it.

 

[Vermilion]

Just wanted to say I'm completely with you on that. I think it's a sign that the double standard is still alive and well. "Good" women still aren't allowed to enjoy sex (and certainly not hot, dirty sex) but women are now allowed to enjoy being "bad". I'm not sure it's a step forward. I don't think having sex, or enjoying sex, is bad and so I don't feel any need to be verbally abused for doing it.

I know for some people the dirty words themselves are a turn-on but I worry it's because some women feel like they have to be punished for what they're doing in order to enjoy it.

No. I love sex, I don't find anything dirty about it, but I like hearing dirty words when I'm fucking.
I like sex to be *made* dirty. It's not dirty enough. I like hearing words like slut and whore because they make it more... titillating. I like those words precisely *because* they are degrading and dirty. It's a little bit taboo without crossing any boundaries: social, legal or moral

<shrugs> Personal choice thing methinks
x
V

 

[floweringquince]

One more humble opinion

As the author of one NC/R story (and the drafter of many subsequent chapters I'm hoping to post soon), in which misogynistic slurs rain down upon my hapless heroine:

I use these terms to illustrate control and dominance as vividly as I can, and only in the dialogue of the captors: e.g. "Git over here, you skanky cunt-whore!" is followed by "She crawled to his feet, her ass wiggling deliciously as she moved."; not "The bitch crawled to him, her slutty ass wiggling like a randy whore's."

But that's how I choose to write, and it may be that no one much will care to read it


I'd say you have three options:

1) Say that if the site can't attract viewers without using "slut" or "whore" in the title, it doesn't need to be on your list.

2) List 'em anyway, if you find the site otherwise worthy.

3) Establish a "naughty boy's penalty corner" on your list, for sites that are dodgy by your site's standards.

(Note: if you call it the "Naughty Boy's Penalty Corner", it'll probably get more hits than anything else on your site (so much for that lesbian orgy with peanut butter and gorillas . "Second-Rate Wanksites" might be a better sobriquet.)


It's your site and your list: if you don't make it just what you want, who will?

 

[SeaCat]

To me it is not about the words. Words are just that, words. In and of themselves they have no power.

It is how they are used, the context that is hurtful.

If I call my wife a slut as we're getting it on, and she asked me to do so it is one thing. If I come up to a sweet young thing on the street and call her the same thing I can rest assured that she will be offended. Same word just different circumstances.

As for the sites who use these words? I tend to avoid them because their use of the words is in a way offensive. It is their way of classifying all women as Sluts or whores. Something that is not true.

Cat

 

[slyc_willie]

To me it is not about the words. Words are just that, words. In and of themselves they have no power.

It is how they are used, the context that is hurtful.

If I call my wife a slut as we're getting it on, and she asked me to do so it is one thing. If I come up to a sweet young thing on the street and call her the same thing I can rest assured that she will be offended. Same word just different circumstances.

As for the sites who use these words? I tend to avoid them because their use of the words is in a way offensive. It is their way of classifying all women as Sluts or whores. Something that is not true.

Cat

I have to agree. I've downloaded more than a few adult videos off the Net, and while I do enjoy them, when the guy in the clip (almost always unseen; you just hear his voice) says something like, 'you're a good little whore, aren't you?' it almost ruins the scene for me.

Why does it seem that 'porn' and 'slut/whore' seem to go hand-in-hand?

And, no, I don't think the answer is self-evident.

 

[Pure]

good points, varian,

i like the 'beautiful agony' site a lot. i think it does empower, esp. the women.

the thing about the 'net is that it's open to all. from the most crass to the most elevated/enlightened/wondrous. IF a person could search properly and was lucky, she could find 'sex positive' or 'woman positive' pornography, such as was never possible before, certainly not in a 'porn store' or even online porn sales outlet.

on the down side is Gresham's Law to the nth power. exponential proliferation of trash, making many searches laborious and iffy.

there is no easy answer, but websites that are selective and exericize control are part of the answer. 'beautiful agony' does, as does 'clean sheets,' in the written area. literotica does not screen, hence its library is a microcosm of the 'net. mountain ranges of (generously) ephemera and a few hills of quality stuff.

QUESTION: how would a person find them?

*There is no answer to the question!*

[[unfortunately search for "hot" stories will not in the least, work. search for "E" works, but is limited; many(even most) fine stories don't seem to get 'E'.]]


Proof: When Lit put its book together, human assessments of literary quality were done, independently of ratings.

The "E" rating is a human assessment of Laurel and Co.

Short of browsing around AH or BDSM and seeing what good writers recommend, there is no way--- and how would a visitor know who the good writiers are? (as opposed to the opinionated loudmouths).

--
returning to the thread. arafura's 'wish list' could theoretically be found at an umbrella porn site that screened its recommendations and linked only to quality stuff that didn't get too crass as to 'whores' 'teens' etc. maybe she could do such a site. maybe Charley or some other 'net porn expert knows of one.

there are sites linking 'arty' erotica, and professional 'art' shots of models, but that's all i can say that i've found. 'nerve' has had good smut, in the past, but havenlt looked lately.

 

[floweringquince]

...just two more cents worth...

The words whore and slut connote something... it's not just empty filler, it's meant to titillate... you don't see "WATCH THESE FILTHY HOUSEWIVES GET FILLED IN EVERY HOLE!" ... well, you do, but it's a different kind of site.

Ever since reading that, I've been longing for a site advertising:
"WATCH THESE FILTHY DUBUTANTES GET FILLED IN EVERY HOLE!!!"

I may need professional help

(Then again, what about...

... JAYCEES ...
... RED HAT LADIES ...
... DAUGHTERS OF THE AMERICAN REVOLUTION ...

I really need professional help

 

[SimonBrooke]

I have to agree. I've downloaded more than a few adult videos off the Net, and while I do enjoy them, when the guy in the clip (almost always unseen; you just hear his voice) says something like, 'you're a good little whore, aren't you?' it almost ruins the scene for me.

Why does it seem that 'porn' and 'slut/whore' seem to go hand-in-hand?

And, no, I don't think the answer is self-evident.

No, I don't, either.

I think where we're at is that there is a perception that 'nice guys don't watch porn', so porn isn't made for nice guys. But I think it's becoming more socially acceptable to watch porn, and what we've got is a situation in which the porn industry is still making product for the audience it had ten years ago. Well, the audience it had ten years ago is still there, but...

I mean, the very fact that there are a lot of people - of both genders - writing and reading sophisticated, well crafted stories on this site - stories the majority of which are not misogynist in tone - seems to me to indicate that there is a significant market for quality, respectful-to-women porn, and I believe that that would translate to film.

I think there is a currently untapped - or at least woefully undersupplied - market out there.

 

[SimonBrooke]

In praise of favourites

there is no easy answer, but websites that are selective and exericize control are part of the answer. 'beautiful agony' does, as does 'clean sheets,' in the written area. literotica does not screen, hence its library is a microcosm of the 'net. mountain ranges of (generously) ephemera and a few hills of quality stuff.

QUESTION: how would a person find them?

*There is no answer to the question!*

There is actually. Find an author you respect, check their 'favourites' page, browse from there. Unfortunately, too few people maintain their 'favourites' (and that, in turn, is because it's relatively difficult to maintain).

Your favourites page essentially allows you to 'meta-edit' Literotica, to pull your own chosen peaks into your own private mountain range. I'd like it to be easier to use; I'd like it to be easier to maintain; I'd very much like it if I could add a sentence about each story or author I was recommending, explaining what I thought was particularly good about them. But 'favourites' is there, and is underused; I commend it to your worships.

[[unfortunately search for "hot" stories will not in the least, work. search for "E" works, but is limited; many(even most) fine stories don't seem to get 'E'.]]

Proof: When Lit put its book together, human assessments of literary quality were done, independently of ratings.

The "E" rating is a human assessment of Laurel and Co.

Short of browsing around AH or BDSM and seeing what good writers recommend, there is no way--- and how would a visitor know who the good writiers are? (as opposed to the opinionated loudmouths).

--
returning to the thread. arafura's 'wish list' could theoretically be found at an umbrella porn site that screened its recommendations and linked only to quality stuff that didn't get too crass as to 'whores' 'teens' etc. maybe she could do such a site. maybe Charley or some other 'net porn expert knows of one.

there are sites linking 'arty' erotica, and professional 'art' shots of models, but that's all i can say that i've found. 'nerve' has had good smut, in the past, but havenlt looked lately.