Pride, Prejudice, Insurance

thebullet

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Pride, Prejudice, Insurance

By Paul Krugman
The New York Times
Monday 07 November 2005

General Motors is reducing retirees' medical benefits. Delphi has declared bankruptcy, and will probably reduce workers' benefits as well as their wages. An internal Wal-Mart memo describes plans to cut health costs by hiring temporary workers, who aren't entitled to health insurance, and screening out employees likely to have high medical bills.

These aren't isolated anecdotes. Employment-based health insurance is the only serious source of coverage for Americans too young to receive Medicare and insufficiently destitute to receive Medicaid, but it's an institution in decline. Between 2000 and 2004the number of Americans under 65 rose by 10 million.
Yet the number of nonelderly Americans covered by employment-based insurance fell by 4.9 million.

The funny thing is that the solution - national health insurance, available to everyone - is obvious. But to see the obvious we'll have to overcome pride - the unwarranted belief that America has nothing to learn from other countries - and prejudice - the equally unwarranted belief, driven by ideology, that private insurance is more efficient than public insurance.

Let's start with the fact that America's health care system spends more, for worse results, than that of any other advanced country.

In 2002 the United States spent $5,267 per person on health care. Canada spent $2,931; Germany spent $2,817; Britain spent only $2,160. Yet the United States has lower life expectancy and higher infant mortality than any of these countries.

But don't people in other countries sometimes find it hard to get medical treatment? Yes, sometimes - but so do Americans. No, Virginia, many Americans can't count on ready access to high-quality medical care.

The journal Health Affairs recently published the results of a survey of the medical experience of "sicker adults" in six countries, including Canada, Britain, Germany and the United States. The responses don't support claims about superior service from the U.S. system. It's true that Americans generally have
shorter waits for elective surgery than Canadians or Britons, although German waits are even shorter. But Americans do worse by some important measures: we find it harder than citizens of other advanced countries to see a doctor when we need one, and our system is more, not less, rife with medical errors.

Above all, Americans are far more likely than others to forgo treatment because they can't afford it. Forty percent of the Americans surveyed failed to fill a prescription because of cost. A third were deterred by cost from seeing a doctor when sick or from getting recommended tests or follow-up.

Why does American medicine cost so much yet achieve so little? Unlike other advanced countries, we treat access to health care as a privilege rather than
a right. And this attitude turns out to be inefficient as well as cruel.

The U.S. system is much more bureaucratic, with much higher administrative costs, than those of other countries, because private insurers and other players work hard at trying not to pay for medical care. And our fragmented system is unable to bargain with drug companies and other suppliers for lower prices.

Taiwan, which moved 10 years ago from a U.S.-style system to a Canadian- style single-payer system, offers an object lesson in the economic advantages of universal coverage. In 1995 less than 60 percent of Taiwan's residents had health insurance; by 2001 the number was 97 percent. Yet according to a careful study published in Health Affairs two years ago, this huge expansion in coverage came virtually free: it led to little if any increase in overall health care spending beyond normal growth due to rising population and incomes.

Before you dismiss Taiwan as a faraway place of which we know nothing, remember Chile-mania: just a few months ago, during the Bush administration's failed attempt to privatize Social Security, commentators across the country - independent thinkers all, I'm sure - joined in a chorus of ill-informed praise for Chile's private retirement accounts. (It turns out that Chile's system has a lot of problems.) Taiwan has more people and a much bigger economy than Chile, and its experience is a lot more relevant to America's real problems.

The economic and moral case for health care reform in America, reform that would make us less different from other advanced countries, is overwhelming. One of these days we'll realize that our semiprivatized system isn't just unfair, it's far less efficient than a straightforward system of guaranteed health insurance.
 
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Heh. There was a paper from Canada showing a giant spike attributed to diminished care as provided by Socialized Medicine. We, America, show the exact same effect for the exact same reasons. Very interesting paper to write.
 
I'd really like to see something more like universal medical insurance. The chief issues I didn't care for in the English version of socialized health care mostly related to an inability to exercise much choice and a lack of personal investment on the provider's part. When the provider's income has no close relationship to patient satisfaction and the patient may have no other provider to whom s/he can go (typically in the case, not of GP's, but of hospital-based services), there's no real incentive for decent service, and sometimes there is no decent service or straightforward remedy to that problem. If instead we provided a basic insurance package that allowed patients to choose providers and the government to negotiate prices as a block, and in addition socialized prescription drug coverage so as also to be able to block-negotiate prices, we might have something semi-workable.

Even that comes with caveats, though; ever try to actually *see* an NHS dentist in the UK? The ones who will deal with NHS patients are almost nonexistant, so "coverage" is something of a canard. Being technically "covered" doesn't mean much when there is no provider. The same goes for some other problems; for example, the average wait to be fitted with a hearing aid is over a year. Hypothetically, one is covered, but for that year I imagine that it must feel rather like one isn't.

There's this, as well; I, too, have chosen not to fill prescriptions due to their cost. It wasn't a pleasure suffering through a longer bout of the flu than I would have with them, but I chose not to because I had other priorities for my money. While I certainly would not like to see anyone have to make that choice with medicines needed to fight a life-threatening illness, there's some sense to having people now and then weigh up whether the benefit justifies the cost. When the drug costs one nothing, it's a simple ratio: any benefit makes it worthwhile, because the cost is zero. While that works for the individual, it can lead to huge costs for the group if no one thinks of that money as coming from his/her own pocket. If it costs $200 to cut a round of flu short two days, I suspect that peoples' decisions might be quite different if the money came directly from their own pockets or from the never-never land of "public funds."

Shanglan
 
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This is a tough one... I don't know the answer... I see flaws in more socialized systems as well as in the US's more capitalistic system...

just personal examples... a friend in the UK has a large melanoma, and has to wait a month and a half to have it removed, simply because the system is so taxed... it could mean his life, if it metastasizes...

I'm in the US... my husband recently had an abscessed tooth that turned very quickly into a flesh-eating bacteria. We had no insurance, but we took him into the emergency room, and in spite of having no coverage, they saved his life.

What happens in socialized systems in emergencies like this?

I've heard of cases of premature babies being born in countries where they won't attempt to save a baby unless life-saving procedures can be paid for in advance.

There's something wrong with the WHOLE picture...
 
I certainly agree that there are problems with each system. The point of the article is that the European/Canadian systems are delivering better overall healthcare to all their people for significantly less cost than America is delivering to only a portion of its citizens.

Two years ago I paid about $12,000/year for health insurance. There was a $1,500 deductable for each family member. I ended paying about $15,000 (insurance plus deductable) and my insurance covered only some perscription drug bills. The insurance provider refused to pay anything else claiming 'it wasn't covered'.

In my experience, American health insurance is half scam. Insurance companies and Managed Care companies are mostly concerned about their bottom line and will therefore make life a living hell for claimants.

This is of course anecdotal and I'm sure there are many people who have had good experiences. My memory of Blue Cross insurance is a good one.

Still, we are talking statistics vs. anecdotes. Again, according to this NY Times article, (which I happen to believe), America is paying more and getting less. And people like Selena, and many millions more are currently without health insurance.

Is this right? Is this country so selfish that it can't find a way to care for its citizens? And by the way, save a hell of a lot of money? And by the way, provide better health care?
 
SelenaKittyn said:
This is a tough one... I don't know the answer... I see flaws in more socialized systems as well as in the US's more capitalistic system...

just personal examples... a friend in the UK has a large melanoma, and has to wait a month and a half to have it removed, simply because the system is so taxed... it could mean his life, if it metastasizes...

I'm in the US... my husband recently had an abscessed tooth that turned very quickly into a flesh-eating bacteria. We had no insurance, but we took him into the emergency room, and in spite of having no coverage, they saved his life.

What happens in socialized systems in emergencies like this?

I've heard of cases of premature babies being born in countries where they won't attempt to save a baby unless life-saving procedures can be paid for in advance.

There's something wrong with the WHOLE picture...
The problem isn't with emergency visits but regualr checkups, and things like that.
I know of three seperate cases, where a woman has died of breast cancer because she had no money to getg her checkups. Once the cancer is obvious, and unavoidable, hey- all the care in the world- but far too late. Hell, for all I know, a cancer might be eating at myown vitals. I haven't had a full checkup in about five years. I have no insurance.

I have finally found an affordable clinic- with a doctor I can trust. I have a low thyroid. I went to the local free clinic- and they told me they do not care for "cronic" illnesses. Mine is utterly manageable- a pill every morning, and I'm good to go. I need a simple blood test about every eighteen moinths and a prescription. But whatever...
 
Being a Canadian, I'm very thankful for our system. If I lived in the U.S. I would most probably be dead. Second best case would be living under a bridge.

Our system does have its problems. Most of which are tied to an extreme lack of civic virtue. We've been struck with 'too high taxes' syndrome. With less money coming in we've been trying to make the system 'more efficient'. So now we're doing less, but doing it efficiently.

The funny thing is, is that the people who bitch loudest about 'socialised medicine' would pitch a fit if you suggested privatising the military.

But both are forms of public service. The military protects everybody, so should a country's medical system.
 
Despite the enthusiastic recommendation of Pat Armstrong, Hugh Armstrong, and Claudia Fegan, for example, among Americans there is still a not unreasonable perception that the waiting times for treatment in a publicly funded system are intolerable. While Cynthia Ramsey and Michael Walker (in Chernomas and Sepehri, p. 171) corroborate the claim that mortality rates are no higher in Canada due to queues, this is little comfort to those requiring hip or knee surgery (with an average wait in Canada of 25 weeks) or cataract surgery (22.4 weeks); those who need such procedures must wait, often in severe pain or discomfort (Ramsey and Walker: 171). That Canada does much better at providing access to these services for lower-income individuals is not necessarily a relevant consideration for those in pain who can afford to avoid queues.

Yale Article

Americans who flock to Canada for cheap flu shots often come away impressed at the free and first-class medical care available to Canadians, rich or poor. But tell that to hospital administrators constantly having to cut staff for lack of funds, or to the mother whose teenager was advised she would have to wait up to three years for surgery to repair a torn knee ligament.


The average Canadian family pays about 48 percent of its income in taxes each year, partly to fund the health care system. Rates vary from province to province, but Ontario, the most populous, spends roughly 40 percent of every tax dollar on health care, according to the Canadian Taxpayers Federation.

The system is going broke, says the federation, which campaigns for tax reform and private enterprise in health care.

It calculates that at present rates, Ontario will be spending 85 percent of its budget on health care by 2035. "We can't afford a state monopoly on health care anymore," says Tasha Kheiriddin, Ontario director of the federation. "We have to examine private alternatives as well."

CBS article

50% tax rates for a system that's going broke and makes you wait up to three years for knee surgery? I think not.

If my child tore knee ligaments in this country, and I didn't allow surgery to repair the knee for three years, someone would try and bring me up on abuse charges.
 
One of the big problems with the American system is not due to doctors or hospitals, but to lawyers. In Washington, they are losing doctors at an alarming rate because of the very high cost of medical malpractice insurance there. Many doctors in Washington will do only a very limited number of things, due to concern over the costs of malpractice insurance. The problem is widespread in states where there are no caps on medical malpractice awards. Cut down on the cost of defending the lawsuit that follows every bad result from medical treatment and the American system will work well.

I know people from Canada who come into the US to pay for services they choose not to wait for in canada. I also know a Canadian woman who comes to the US to buy a specific drug that Canada's health care system will not supply her, as there is a competing drug that is "just as good." Hell it may be better, but the lady's system will not tolerate it.
 
Tawan isn't he us. Canada isn't the Us. And Europe isn't the US. To make comparrisons on things such as infant mortality and life expectancy ignores multiple factors that effect each. And is a fairly big load of hooey as presented.

Australia 8 6
Austria 8 5
Belgium 8 5
Canada 7 5
Denmark 8 4

Finland 6 4
France 7 4
Germany 7 4
Greece 10 5
Iceland 6 3

Ireland 8 6
Italy 8 4
Japan 5 3
Luxembourg 7 5
Netherlands 7 5

New Zealand 8 6
Norway 7 4
Portugal 11 5
Spain 8 4
Sweden 6 3

Switzerland 7 5
United Kingdom 8 6
United States 9 7

Other UN member countries
Andorra .. 6
Israel 10 6
Liechtenstein .. 10
Malta 9 5
Monaco .. 4

San Marino .. ..

Developing countries 70 62
Least developed countries 116 101
Arab States 63 53
East Asia and the Pacific 42 33
Latin America and the Caribbean 42 28
South Asia 84 69
Sub-Saharan Africa 111 107
Central & Eastern Europe & CIS 30 30
OECD 18 11
High-income OECD 8 5

High human development 14 9
Medium human development 58 46
Low human development 112 104

High income 8 5
Middle income 40 31
Low income 90 80

World 63 56

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Notes :
1 - The primary agencies responsible for these two Millennium Development Goal indicators are the United Nations Children's Fund (UNICEF) and the World Health Organization (WHO). The table shows World Bank estimates, however, because the more recent estimates from UNICEF and the WHO were not ready for release. The estimates shown are largely consistent with the UNICEF and WHO estimates.
2 - Data refer to 1992.
3 - Excluding the Republic of Korea; see East Asia and the Pacific.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Source :
World Bank. 2003. World Development Indicators 2003. CD-ROM. Washington, DC; aggregates calculated for the Human Development Report Office by the World Bank.



For example:

Us: 7 deaths per 1000 live births
England: 6 deaths per 100 live births
Canda: 5 deaths per 100 live births


Portugal fell from 11 to 5 in ten calander years. You can't tell me that is due to suddenly embracing nationalized healthcare. It's far more likely to be an anomoly, or have something to do with a particular kind of disease outbreak.

Further small population centers like Hongkong and cyprus have small infant mortality. Most likely because fewer infants are born, not because Cyprus and hong Kong have outstanding medical plans.

Europe has a smaller birthrate, this means fewer infants who will perish from incureable/congeniatal disease.

The author also fails to mention that infant mortality is falling worldwide. Even in nations like

burkina Faso: 118 to 104
Chad: 118 to 117
Rawanda: 107 to 96

These are nations where genocidal wars and ethnic clensing are going on, yet infant mortality is still falling.

In simple terms, a deviation of one per 1000 live births is statistically not going to correleate to being outside a standard deviation from the norm.

So what you have here is some bleding heart liberal, pushing socialized medicine and cooking statistics to fit his/her need. With a good old helping of "we need to be more like the rest of the world" thrown in for good measure.

I don't need Amicus to point out this is just another blatant attempt to push an agenda of social engineering on us. And I don't need anyone to notice the author dosen't say how we are going to pay for this. Or to notice the author presents his stats without reference to where they came from or how they were compiled. Even your most disorganized scientist or author will generally tell yuo where their statistical information comes from.

Oh and of course, you can't have an article like this without some inflamatory rhetoric.


Basically, a steaming truckload of cow manure masquerading as critical analyisis and thought.

Edited: to hange Portugese rates erroneously quoted
 
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For some reason my table top didn't but and paste. the numbers next to each country are deaths per 1000 live births 1991 and 2001.
 
*burp*

If I didn't have insurance, I'd be thinking 'Hey, yeah... all of you pay for me to go see a doctor!'

Since I have a damn fine policy, I'm thinking "Uh, I like my choices, thank you very much!"

But regardless of both, let's think about this for one second.

The GOVERNMENT in charge of your health.

Correct me if I'm wrong... don't liberals believe that 2000 young boys and girls died in Iraq over a LIE!

Congratulations, you just argued me out of this universal health insurance... cause if the Government will KILL me for oil, then I damn sure know they'll let me die for the bottom line.

Sincerely,
ElSol
 
The GOVERNMENT in charge of your health.

Correct me if I'm wrong... don't liberals believe that 2000 young boys and girls died in Iraq over a LIE!

Congratulations, you just argued me out of this universal health insurance... cause if the Government will KILL me for oil, then I damn sure know they'll let me die for the bottom line.
You are quite right, El Sol. The people running THIS government would stand by and watch anyone die. They've shown themselves to be very good at that.

Thanks for the alert.
 
Even if you HAVE decent insurance, one fairly serious surgery, and you're in debt for life, I know.

My youngest son had to have heart surgery when he was 5 1/2 months old. It wasn't an emergency, and it wasn't really even on his heart. He had an aortic anomoly, where his aorta was split in two, and one of the parts wrapped rather tightly around his windpipe, making it difficult for him to breathe. It's very rare, in fact, the surgeon informed us later that he would be one of the cases in a journal article he was writing about that condition.

I had very good insurance, from a major carrier, and we JUST NOW finished paying the surgeon, the hospital, the anaesthesiologist, etc., etc. etc.

He had the surgery Monday morning, and he came home Thursday, so he wasn't even there that damn long.
 
Yep. My dad chose to die rather than undergo treatment. Treatment would have vitiated the entire family fortune. And my family is professionals, with insurances. It was a sort of final gesture of breadwinning. I watched him fade and I witnessed his death. All he had to do was cease dialysis.

Thousands of people choose to die without treatment in America, because of the crippling cost of the system, if system we may call it. Millions do not see doctors at all, nor dentists, because, without insurance, the cost of such things is prohibitive. Stella says she is doing that. I never saw a dentist until I was twelve, because the family was too poor.

We all know of people for whom each of these things is the case.

And yet this is the superior, efficient, private system of health care that you people call the best in the world and all that blah.

Scare me with the government. I want the details. Because this is not working.
 
I heard an interesting retort to this whole argument from someone in the health care field once. It was an interview on the radio, so I can't provide a link.

He basically said that healthcare in this country was a catch 22. Healthcare costs in this country used to be much lower, but healthcare quality used to be much lower as well. We couldn't fix things like we used to, and people died.

Surviving relatives and the general populous demanded that healthcare improve. Massive amounts of money have been spent to meet those demands. Cloudy, your kid probably would have died 40 years ago. We are to the point where we can transplant heart, lungs and liver all in one setting.

The world is still screaming for a cure for Aids, cancer, and a host of other diseases. Chances are that if a cure is found, it will come from this country. Aids and cancer research are money drains on the medical communities. That money has to be made up somewhere.

New medical technologies are coming out every day. They want to recoup the billions spent on R&D for these technologies.

People are paying more for health care, but people are also living longer. Things that would have killed them a few generations ago are now cureable.

His basic point was that people wanted better healthcare, they got it, and now they're bitching about the price of it.

I don't know if he's right, but it was an interesting perspective.
 
I fail to understand why our great country ignores so many of its citizens - those who are uninsured, the poor, the homeless. We are a very hard people. I suppose it comes from our Puritan roots and built upon our Christianity.

Funny, cause I was taught as a child that Christ was loving and kind. He took care of the infirm. He cared about the poor.

This Christ of many of the born again Christian sects is one hard hearted son of a bitch, that is for sure.

I listened to an interview with Jimmy Carter the other day. He is a born again Christian, but he was forced to leave the Southern Baptist Convention because he could no longer agree with its philosophy and rules. In one fell swoop the 'new' leaders of that sect have changed the way the church members deal with their God. Until just a few years ago, each member essentially dealt directly with God/Christ. But now the members MUST go through the leaders of the church. The Church leaders will interpret scripture and will decide what is the Word of God. Anyone who disagrees with that philosophy will be thrown out of the church.

Until a few years ago, females were a part of the church hierarchy. Now no female is allowed to hold a position of authority in the Southern Baptist Convention. That includes being pastors. Any congregation led by a female will be thrown out of the church, as I understand it.

These people are hard and unforgiving. But they are a reflection of a large portion of the American people. It's a very sad thing. This country has so much natural wealth, so much land, so much beauty; and many of its most influential people are as cold as a witch's tit.

Go figure.
 
cloudy said:
Even if you HAVE decent insurance, one fairly serious surgery, and you're in debt for life, I know.

My youngest son had to have heart surgery when he was 5 1/2 months old. It wasn't an emergency, and it wasn't really even on his heart. He had an aortic anomoly, where his aorta was split in two, and one of the parts wrapped rather tightly around his windpipe, making it difficult for him to breathe. It's very rare, in fact, the surgeon informed us later that he would be one of the cases in a journal article he was writing about that condition.

I had very good insurance, from a major carrier, and we JUST NOW finished paying the surgeon, the hospital, the anaesthesiologist, etc., etc. etc.

He had the surgery Monday morning, and he came home Thursday, so he wasn't even there that damn long.

Yes. It's ridiculous.

Our son had to have emergency surgery when he was 3 weeks old and also at 6 weeks old. Horribly frightening, 4 day hospital stays both times, expensive as hell.

He's fine today. Strong and healthy. But the detailed costs were amazing - pages and pages of itemized things, some of which I didn't even recognize. It took us years to finish making payments to the doctors and the hospital. We do have decent insurance. Not great, but decent.

We joked for awhile that we finally owned our son because we finished paying off his medical bills.

Somebody's making loads of money - wish it were us.
 
thebullet said:
I listened to an interview with Jimmy Carter the other day. He is a born again Christian, but he was forced to leave the Southern Baptist Convention because he could no longer agree with its philosophy and rules. In one fell swoop the 'new' leaders of that sect have changed the way the church members deal with their God. Until just a few years ago, each member essentially dealt directly with God/Christ. But now the members MUST go through the leaders of the church. The Church leaders will interpret scripture and will decide what is the Word of God. Anyone who disagrees with that philosophy will be thrown out of the church.

Until a few years ago, females were a part of the church hierarchy. Now no female is allowed to hold a position of authority in the Southern Baptist Convention. That includes being pastors. Any congregation led by a female will be thrown out of the church, as I understand it.

Are you talking about Baptists or Catholics?

If you're going to criticize the Southern Baptists for being like this, why not the Catholics too? The Catholics have been doing this stuff for hundreds of years.
 
While certainly much of successful drug research done in the world comes from America, on the other hand, the drug companies are making unbelievable profits from their drugs. Pharmacutical corporations are among the most profitable in the world.

Don't feel sorry for them because their research costs so much. They are more than amply rewarded for their efforts.

The real questions come down to:
are the people getting the health care they need?
are the costs of health care reasonable?
why are something like 40 million people in this country without health insurance?

There are many people in this country who must decide between getting a prescription filled and eating. This is fact. I know from first hand experience.

I read that something like 30% of the people in this country have not gotten a prescription filled because they couldn't afford it.

Many people postpone doctor's appointments or just don't go to the doctor because they don't have the money.

When they finally do go, often it is too late. And still, the cost to the health care system is higher than if they had received early treatment. They will receive expensive public assisted treatment that could have been avoided had they only practiced the preventive medicine they were too poor to practice.

The economic benefits to all of us is obvious if we were to have some kind of universal health care. But that would be socialist! Can't have something like that in the good old US of A. Fuck those poor people. They are too lazy to get out of their poverty anyway. That was proven in another thread.
 
If you're going to criticize the Southern Baptists for being like this, why not the Catholics too? The Catholics have been doing this stuff for hundreds of years.

Wildcard, what did I do to incur your wrath? Forget it, I know. I disagreed with you on another thread.

I didn't mention Catholics. I was talking about Baptists. The Baptists in America were founded by Roger Williams (as I recall) and the prime tenant of their belief was that each individual could deal directly with their God. Each individual could interpret and understand Holy Scripture for himself. There is a term for it that I can't remember, but it'll come to me eventually.

About 5 years ago the Southern Baptist Convention was taken over by the most extreme elements of its membership. These new 'leaders' changed the entire concept of the individual's dealing with his God and interpreting scripture.

Wildcard, this is a fundamental revision in the way the entire religion works. Am I making myself clear to you? This is not my idea, I am merely passing along what I heard from the mouth of a relatively well-respected man who used to be our President.

BTW, I thought you were an agnostic. WTF do you care about my views on the Southern Baptist Convention?
 
Wildcard Ky said:
If you're going to criticize the Southern Baptists for being like this, why not the Catholics too? The Catholics have been doing this stuff for hundreds of years.
Not to agree, or disagree, with the sentiment (hey, I'm not Christian or Catholic), but the point might be made that Catholics aren't currently enjoying an enormous amount of influence over the Executive Branch of the US government; and their papal choices, at this juncture, are of considerably less cause for concern to the average American.
 
I thought it was a legitimate question.

You pointed out things that a sect of the Baptist church is doing that you think is wrong. I pointed out that Catholics have been doing the same things for hundreds of years.

Females aren't allowed to hold any position of authority in the catholic church.

The church leaders in the catholic church interperet scripture for the followers. It's called the catachysms (sp?).

When confessing your sins, you don't do it to God, you do it to a priest.

I am agnostic. I was born into a Catholic family and got tired of it. I didn't agree with a whole lot of things they taught. I then joined a Baptist Church on my own at age 13. It took a few years, but I had major disagreements with them as well. By the end of the whole religion process, I became what I am today.

I'm not sure if there is or isn't a God. However, my multi religional upbringing did teach me one thing very well; Organized religion is corrupt.

You've pointed out some issues with Southern Baptists. They're all true, I've been there and done that.

I've pointed out the same issues with Catholics. Been there and done that too. I didn't even bother to go into the part about what the Catholic Church allowed to happen to children for decades.

If you took this as my having some form of wrath against you, my only conclusion would be that you're partial to Catholic. I intended nothing against you.

I have a sincere disdain for any organized religion that gets that big and that powerful. Baptists, Catholics, it doesn't matter. They're all rotten to the core if you ask me. If the bad points of one are going to be brought out, I want to show that the others are just as bad.
 
yui said:
Not to agree, or disagree, with the sentiment (hey, I'm not Christian or Catholic), but the point might be made that Catholics aren't currently enjoying an enormous amount of influence over the Executive Branch of the US government; and their papal choices, at this juncture, are of considerably less cause for concern to the average American.

I disagree. Catholics weild an enormous amount of power in this country, especially in the Northeast and West. Because a Catholic isn't in the Whitehouse doesn't mean there isn't a tremendous amount of legislative power there.

The Catholic church lashed out against Kerry for his pro choice stance. They said any priest that gave him communion would be committing a sin.

The Catholic church carries so much power that we have an Ambassador to the Vatican. Name any other religious group that we have an ambassador to.
 
Socialized medicine costs money. A lot of money. It has to come from somewhere, and when you are talking money in the figures neccessary, you're talking major tax hikes on the middle and working class. If it takes taxes up to the 40% range on personal income as was quoted for Canada, or even higher as is the case in many european nations, you're talking about dragging most of the working class back into the working poor and the lower and middle class back into the working class, as far as disposable income goes for them.

Along with this you are talking systems that don't respond quickly or efficently to the needs of individuals. If I have to wait three weeks to get seen for a sinus infection, it's most likely going to have cleared up on its own before I see the doctor.

The concept of socialized medicine isn't anathema to most of us. The implementation of it is. Because most wage earners realize they are the ones who take it in the head.

The economic good that is so blatantly obvious to comarade bullet has for me, attendant downsides. You take twenty percent more from the liquid income most people are earning and that's it for the kid's playstation, you can play with plastic army men like I did. That's it too for friday night at the movies, the theme park on weekends, dinner out, even delivery pizza. 2 car familes? Forget that, I'll get a moped, you can have the scooter. So the economic drain from the secotrs of the economy that provide us with entertainment and luxury items means people out of work. Lots of them. It's pretty much the death knell to upward mobility as no one is going to have much left for savings. Wall street will get a rude awakening as small time investors find the 100$ that used to go to the 401-K is n ow neccessary to pay for light and heat. Etc. Etc. ad infinitum.

But everyone should be happy to be poor, since we can all get that gall bladder surgery we needed, after a several month wait, done by a harried suregeon who has no incentive to do good work. Wheee.

Of course you also have doctors who took out masive loans, in the expectation they would be able to make incomes that would allow them to be paid off. I assume we will forgive their student loans when we set the rate they can charge at something rediculously inadequate to generate the income they would need. Or maybe we'll just garnish their wages until their debts are paid, that's a sure way to keep em on the job. Just what I want when I'm sick, Marcus Welby M.D> meets G. Gordon Liddy.

In World War II, Japan set out to unite the asians in something they called the Greater east Asia Co-Prosperity spehere. And they got almost exactly what people like the bullet want, an egletarian society. Everyone was too poor to complain and everyone was more worried about where their next meal was coming from than politics. The greater east asia co poverty spehere was what the subject peoples called it.

The majority of americans aren't socialists. The majority don't have any interest in becoming socialists. And the majority make that plain everytime this comes up. It's called enlightened self interest. People aren't against the poor getting medical care. People are against becoming poor themselves to give it to them.

Like virtually all idealists, the practical concerns aren't worth worrying about. It's thinking like that that brings you Prohibition and the war in Iraq.

If there is a practical way to implement universal medical coverage, one that dosen't imply a significant tax hike on those who are working and are generally covered by their employers, I'd love to hear it. If it's a pie in the sky plan, like taxing corporations or the rich, or a realistic approach, like taxing the ever living shit out of the middle and working clases, I'll pass.
 
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