Possible questionable content

[LissaSue]

Hey all,

I have a writer who is writing a story based in Netherland where the laws are different than America. He is concerned about any rules there may be on Lit. if some of his characters, for example, drink at the age of 16 instead of 21.

If anyone can shed some light on this, that would be awesome.

Thanks for your time!

 

[lovecraft68]

Hey all,

I have a writer who is writing a story based in Netherland where the laws are different than America. He is concerned about any rules there may be on Lit. if some of his characters, for example, drink at the age of 16 instead of 21.

If anyone can shed some light on this, that would be awesome.

Thanks for your time!

I have pulled off underage drinking and it got through. The only major concern is underage sex and regardless of what age of consent is in any country on Lit they have to be 18+.

This is Lit's rule and it goes by their discretion not by whatever laws are out there. As I said though the drinking got through. Just, if you even have to state their ages do it a page or so before they drink so it's not "side by side"

So no; "I was sixteen and me and Bill had just opened the bottle of Jim beam he had lifted ...." Nope.

 

[sr71plt]

Literotica is an American-based site. American federal laws are what are applied here. It's difficult on this site to even have a sixteen-year-old character in a story, no matter what they are doing. That said, the Web site owners may not care about drinking ages. They certainly don't care about incest, and most forms of that are illegal in the states.

Later:

OK, Elfin, let's parse this.

"Literotica is an American-based site." You want to try to twist this one to not being true?

"American federal laws are what are applied here." The OP brings up the author being in the Netherlands. This states that that has no bearing (since Literotica is an American-based site). It adds the element of zeroing out on application of state law. Federal law overrides in any case regarding posting on Literotica.

"It's difficult on this site to even have a sixteen-year-old character in a story, no matter what they are doing." Well, who with any knowledge of current posting rules doesn't agree with that? Not impossible; just risky of at least an initial rejection. (You, of course, haven't posted a story here for five years--so maybe you don't understand.)

"That said, the Web site owners may not care about drinking ages." I haven't seen a story get bounced for underaged drinking only. Have you?

"They certainly don't care about incest," The Web site obviously doesn't care about posting incest, now does it? It has a category for it. And this doesn't say a thing about my position on incest stories, does it? As a matter of fact, I have incest covered in the stories I have posted here. Do you? If you don't, should I assume you don't approve of it and slam you?

"and most forms of that are illegal in the states." You don't think this is true? Did I post that therefore I don't approve of incest stories? (the answer to that would be, no I didn't.)

So, once again, stop making up positions for me and then taking pot shots at them.

 

[lovecraft68]

Literotica is an American-based site. American federal laws are what are applied here. It's difficult on this site to even have a sixteen-year-old character in a story, no matter what they are doing. That said, the Web site owners may not care about drinking ages. They certainly don't care about incest, and most forms of that are illegal in the states.

The drinking has never given me a problem. Using underage characters in non sexual situations I am two out of three in getting them posted. If you have it toward the end you have a better chance. Stating a less than 18 age in the first paragraph is the kiss of death.

I did it early this year and got tossed. I rewrote that scene for a later chapter and put it towards the end and it made it. Maybe they look to see what direction you are going. Or maybe it is a coin toss.

 

[Great_Brit]

I have pulled off underage drinking and it got through. ...

The drinking has never given me a problem. ...

I have read many stories with drinking specifically set in the USA and mentioning drinking underage, either at home or on false ID.

 

[bronzeage]

Hey all,

I have a writer who is writing a story based in Netherland where the laws are different than America. He is concerned about any rules there may be on Lit. if some of his characters, for example, drink at the age of 16 instead of 21.

If anyone can shed some light on this, that would be awesome.

Thanks for your time!

Any mention of an age less than 18 can get the submission rejected. It does not have to be in a sexual context.

It is strange and arbitrary, but sometimes just removing the numerical age is the solution. Instead of "when I was sixteen, I could get into bars," change to "when I was younger."

 

[AsylumSeeker]

Any mention of an age less than 18 can get the submission rejected. It does not have to be in a sexual context.

It is strange and arbitrary, but sometimes just removing the numerical age is the solution. Instead of "when I was sixteen, I could get into bars," change to "when I was younger."

Or just place a disclaimer at the header of a story that all characters are 18+. Then no need to mention age in the story itself. Just a thought.

 

[LissaSue]

Or just place a disclaimer at the header of a story that all characters are 18+. Then no need to mention age in the story itself. Just a thought.

sigh...Why is it that the simple ways always escape us? Thanks!

 

[Darkniciad]

Mentioning an age less than 18 is not an automatic rejection. If you aren't proactive, it may very well increase the chance of a rejection, though.

For safety's sake, utilize the "notes" section of the submission form. Point out any characters who are under 18, and note that they aren't present during anything remotely sexual ( or have grown up to 18+ by the time such happens )

I've never had the slightest problem including characters of any age in my stories, so long as they stay completely away from the sex while underage.

I have peripheral characters in the single digits, with the age right there in the text. I even have a main character where the story starts out when he's five years old ( In his 20s by the time any sexual content enters the tale )

I didn't even use the notes section on any of those. They passed through first time.

It's a complete myth that including any character under 18 in your story is an automatic rejection with no further examination for context. Speed reading to approve stories makes it more likely when a sub 18 age is in the text, but it's anything but an automatic rejection.

The key is divorcing such characters completely from the sex -- at least until they're of age. If you get an underage rejection when your characters aren't having sex until they're beyond that magical line, you need to scrutinize your text, and ask yourself what the purpose of including the underage character or flashback/memory/narrative from when a character was underage is.

My main character that started off at five, for example, starts at that age to establish an "imaginary friend" ( who turns out to not be so imaginary ) to set up the location of the story, and what it means to him, in order to progress with how it changes when he's in his tweens, then teens, then finally in adulthood -- where the sex finally comes into the story.

There's no mention of attraction of any kind, no nekkidness, and not even a member of the opposite sex except for his mother until he's over 18.

You have to be careful of having characters who will end up having sex interacting while under 18. This is the problem most incest stories have with underage rejections. Because the primary kink of those stories is the familial relationship, a lot of otherwise innocent things take on a sexual context.

The sixteen year old boy rubbing Mom's feet while watching television is pretty sterile. If he ends up in bed with Mom a couple of years later... It becomes part of the seduction/courting/whatever you want to call it, and thus connected to the sex.

Any mention of pre-18 sexuality has to be something that has already happened prior to the beginning of the story, and it has to be highly sterile. "I lost my virginity at sixteen" is about the limit of what will pass muster.

As to underage drinking or use of illegal drugs, I've never seen the slightest evidence that those are forbidden in any way. I've read and written both of those many times.

 

[lovecraft68]

Mentioning an age less than 18 is not an automatic rejection. If you aren't proactive, it may very well increase the chance of a rejection, though.

For safety's sake, utilize the "notes" section of the submission form. Point out any characters who are under 18, and note that they aren't present during anything remotely sexual ( or have grown up to 18+ by the time such happens )

I've never had the slightest problem including characters of any age in my stories, so long as they stay completely away from the sex while underage.

I have peripheral characters in the single digits, with the age right there in the text. I even have a main character where the story starts out when he's five years old ( In his 20s by the time any sexual content enters the tale )

I didn't even use the notes section on any of those. They passed through first time.

It's a complete myth that including any character under 18 in your story is an automatic rejection with no further examination for context. Speed reading to approve stories makes it more likely when a sub 18 age is in the text, but it's anything but an automatic rejection.

The key is divorcing such characters completely from the sex -- at least until they're of age. If you get an underage rejection when your characters aren't having sex until they're beyond that magical line, you need to scrutinize your text, and ask yourself what the purpose of including the underage character or flashback/memory/narrative from when a character was underage is.

My main character that started off at five, for example, starts at that age to establish an "imaginary friend" ( who turns out to not be so imaginary ) to set up the location of the story, and what it means to him, in order to progress with how it changes when he's in his tweens, then teens, then finally in adulthood -- where the sex finally comes into the story.

There's no mention of attraction of any kind, no nekkidness, and not even a member of the opposite sex except for his mother until he's over 18.

You have to be careful of having characters who will end up having sex interacting while under 18. This is the problem most incest stories have with underage rejections. Because the primary kink of those stories is the familial relationship, a lot of otherwise innocent things take on a sexual context.

The sixteen year old boy rubbing Mom's feet while watching television is pretty sterile. If he ends up in bed with Mom a couple of years later... It becomes part of the seduction/courting/whatever you want to call it, and thus connected to the sex.

Any mention of pre-18 sexuality has to be something that has already happened prior to the beginning of the story, and it has to be highly sterile. "I lost my virginity at sixteen" is about the limit of what will pass muster.

As to underage drinking or use of illegal drugs, I've never seen the slightest evidence that those are forbidden in any way. I've read and written both of those many times.

I think my problem was the opening line was:
"I was 16 and lying in my bed..."

The following sentences describe how he fell asleep, had a nightmare, his older sister (18) comes in fully dressed and ends up lying down with him so he can sleep. Nothing remotely sexual occurs. I wanted this in to describe how they began to get close.

I think they saw 16 along with being in bed and "saw it coming" so to speak.

I used the same exact paragraphs in a later chapter but it was tow thrids through and he was "thinking back on it" so I had him at 18 thinking when I was sixteen.

So you are correct it is in the context of. I have also heard but not sure if there is any truth to it that newer writers are looked at a little more closely in the beginning.

 

[elfin_odalisque]

Lissa Sue

A lot of misinformation has been posted. Dark (as so often) gives the lucid truth.

To be a bit Irish, everything is allowed on Lit except what isn't. Seriously, the site has its defined rules and, if you don't break those, you should get published. Despite the hot air, the only absolute taboos (which I agree with) are no bestiality and absolutely no sexual activity under 18 - oh, and no bad spelling and grammar.

Despite the pomposity, there is absolutely no federal law prohibiting fiction of sexual activity lower than 18 years old. To protect the exploitation of minors and prevent pedophilia, it is illegal to publish provocative/sexual images of anyone under 18. Lit is aware that there are many threats to erotic sites and have sensibly decided to disallow any under-18 sexual contact for commercial reasons. There are many erotic story sites that allow under-18 stories.

There are a lot of stories featuring children - heck, most of Selena Kitt's babysitting canon featured (non-sexually) children. A story in the toplists I can't find now featured the slow, non-physical romance of a young couple until consummation at 18.

The rules on Lit are sensibly to prevent attacks by those wishing to close the site. Underage anything except sexual contact is legit.

An incest story cannot be illegal as the protagonists are not human. The same goes for under-age drinking, as well as rape and violent BDSM - however much it is not your taste.

In summary, avoid under-18 physical contact and you should be alright.

 

[sr71plt]

Despite the ad hominem attack, Elfin hasn't posted anything different here than I've posted across several threads.

 

[lonesomedove66]

Simple is easy lol and so we never think of it straight away. Thanks Asylumseeker I would have not thought of that either lol

 

[elfin_odalisque]

Despite the ad hominem attack, Elfin hasn't posted anything different here than I've posted across several threads.

No, sr, you gave misinformation and didn't reply to the OP's question - as dark did. There was nothing ad hominem in me pulling you up on factual inaccuracy.

Fiction can go to extreme lengths under the first amendment, the difference with physical acts is generally covered by state law and, anyway, is not applicable to this site.

Your silly reaction to incest, given that the enfranchisement of gay sex has been supported by the Supreme Court, is insular and juvenile. The medical issues have vanished and it is now a life choice - though not for me.

Try the trademark infringements of Celebrities.

I just wish you'd relax a bit and come play in the Lit sandpit.

 

[bronzeage]

I have three experiences of editing stories rejected for under age sexual encounters.

The first was about a young girl having her first sexual encounter with her older brother's friend. In the first paragraph, the narrator said she was sixteen. This line was left out and the story was accepted.

The second story was about a young man. His father says, "Many seventeen year old men are married and have families." The line was changed to "Many men your age are married and have families." The story was accepted.

The third story was about a woman who wanted to incest role play with her husband and pretend she was nine years old. The narrative made it clear the woman and man involved were adults and it was a role play. The story was rejected. After a few direct exchanges with the story mod, it was clear, no story of this type would ever appear on Lit. No amount of prologue or back story could salvage the tale.

 

[Darkniciad]

Role-play is another dicey area that I've jumped onto the tightrope with.

In my experience, the key to getting role-play of the type bronzeage mentions into acceptable territory is to be in the head of the ( in my case woman ) playing the young role throughout the entire scene. I had her regularly thinking about it being role-playing, what specifically about it was turning her on, what was a little bit creepy, etc.

I was constantly poking the reader with the fact that she was a twenty-something woman in costume, playing little girl for a man's entertainment.

Obviously, that means that the story can't be from the point of view of the 'older' character.

You also can't define the age that the 'young' character is playing. You just have to imply it through the maturity level that he/she is acting out.

Remove everything but the role-playing scene from the story, and read through it. If there's more than three or four sentences in a row where you aren't breaking the 'fourth wall' of the role-play with the 'young' character, it's not going to fly. In my case, I did so most of the time during "action" sentences, so even copy-pasting and removing bits that stressed her real age would eat up a lot of the heat of the scene, making the exercise pointless.

I would imagine that a story which consisted of little more than such a scene would have a far more difficult time getting past the rejection stamp than one where the role-play is just a scene in a much larger story.

You have to make it all but impossible for someone wanting to read it as not being role-play to do so.

That chapter I did put a note in the "notes" section when I posted it, pointing out the scene, what it entailed, on what Lit page ( if I'm remembering right ), etc. I went out of my way to make sure that the moderators knew about that scene and how to find it easily.

It went through without a hitch first time, as did a later edit to clean up the text of the whole story before starting the sequel.

This type of role-play isn't absolutely forbidden any more than a sub-18 character appearing in any context is. It's all about what you write, and whether someone could manage to turn it into kiddie porn in his or her head.

 

[sr71plt]

No, sr, you gave misinformation and didn't reply to the OP's question - as dark did. There was nothing ad hominem in me pulling you up on factual inaccuracy.

Fiction can go to extreme lengths under the first amendment, the difference with physical acts is generally covered by state law and, anyway, is not applicable to this site.

Your silly reaction to incest, given that the enfranchisement of gay sex has been supported by the Supreme Court, is insular and juvenile. The medical issues have vanished and it is now a life choice - though not for me.

Try the trademark infringements of Celebrities.

I just wish you'd relax a bit and come play in the Lit sandpit.

First, yes your posts absolutely are ad hominem personal attacks.

What a vicious little dingaling you are. Just lie left and right, don't you? I'll let the readers check up on this as they wish. Your made-up nonsense shouldn't really be worth a detailed response, since it doesn't correctly identify any position I take.

Stop making up fake positions for me and then taking pot shots at them.

Fiction can go to extreme limits in the United States. Yep. I've never said it couldn't--in fact, over and over I've posted that it can. Law is applicable to this site, certainly, but it's irrelevant to say there's a law against what this site is doing, yep. Or even that the site couldn't legally run underage stories if it wanted to. It's images that the law goes after, not the written word. Posting underage stories just would just get some folks very, very interested in who posts here (because of the people that would be attracted to the site). The Web site states it won't do it. Over and over I've posted that this is the privilege of the Web site to do.

What reaction to incest? When a particular poster, who writes incest here, goes after those who write nonconsent, I point to the hypocrisy of doing so. So do others. Other than that I've taken no position on the writing of incest. In fact, over and over again, when posters have slammed a particular kind of story, I've posted that they should just read/write what they want and let others read and write whatever they want that the Web site will accept. Over and over again, I've posted this. Your comments on this subject here are as deranged as your other ranting. I don't have the foggiest notion what you're saying in relationship to me.

Stop making up fake postions for me and then taking pot shots at them.

Don't know what you're slamming me for concerning trademarks, but I'll note that people can't be trademarked as people--even celebrities. There has to be a marketable element to who they are to get it covered by a trademark. And they have to apply for the specific trademark--and it's not easy to get one even after they've applied. There's nothing automatically protecting celebrities any more than anyone else for anything (in fact celebrities get less libel/slander protection than Joe Blow does.) Try researching before you flap your jaws.

Stop making up fake positons for me and then taking pot shots at them.

The bottom line is that you really, really have a screw loose--and a hard on for me. And you really, really don't know how to read posts.

 

[sr71plt]

Your silly reaction to incest, given that the enfranchisement of gay sex has been supported by the Supreme Court, is insular and juvenile.

Let's hit on this one again as long as we're here. What in the hell is this supposed to mean? What does incest have to do with gay enfranchisement, for openers? And, then, what is it supposed to have to do with me? Because you're asserting I'm gay?

I'm not, I'm bi. And if, while posting to an erotica site, you don't understand the difference, it's you are are being insular and juvenile.

sex is sex is sex. Gender makes no difference to me.

That's bi, not gay.

I fuck women and men indiscriminately (or did until I started slowing down)--and I write about it indiscriminately too (I have ten times the number of straight stories even under the sr71plt name here that you have posted to Lit. in total. And this isn't the pen name I use for most of my straight and bi writing--even at Lit.).

I've been married 42 years. I have children and grandchildren. And I still fuck my wife. And enjoy doing so.

Again, if you don't understand the difference between bi and gay--especially when you are posting to an erotica bulletin board--you are the one being insular and juvenile.

 

[AsylumSeeker]

Just to share -- I read a story here once, just randomly selected, where the author (not me, and I have no recollection of who it was, nobody familiar), started off stating the age of his sister as 18 but then telling the reader how she looked and acted like she was 12. I was actually a bit shocked that it had been accepted, especially as it was written as if the intended age of his sister was 12. Maybe it fell through a crack so to speak (not being funny here), or perhaps this is acceptable. Don't know.

I get a lot of criticism from readers complaining to me that in reality a young woman of 18 doesn't start thinking of sex the day she turns 18, but years earlier. Yes, of course. Life is life, but Lit is Lit.

 

[soflabbwlvr]

This thread has drifted far from the OP's original question. It has also drifted into a sea of inaccuracy.

It is an absolute fallacy that Lit. requires all characters to be chaste virgins until their 18th birthday.

In one of my stories I included the following background about a character:

"The little slut lost her virginity at thirteen to some older white guy, around thirty-one or thirty-two, I think. Her parents found out and pressed charges. He went to jail. Two years later she got pregnant, this time with an even older white guy. A year later she got pregnant again. Yep, you guessed it, another older white guy. This whore had two kids before she even graduated from high school."

I got approval for this passage from Laurel before I posted the story. The key here is that although the character had underage sex (a lot of it, in fact) none of it was described. Your characters can have a sexual past before reaching adulthood--you just cannot describe the particular acts in which they participated.

 

[elfin_odalisque]

sr, I'm only trying to point out to writers you disdain to read, that your view of erotica is rather 'literary' and a world away from the nursery bed of Lit.

I accept fully that your encyclopedic knowledge of the Qu'aran of the CMS makes you an Ayatollah of correlative conjunctions and the interpolation of injectives but your expertise does not extend to trademark and copyright law, federal law over the internet.

You have banged on for ages that Lit's corporate policy against under 18 sex is a factor of federal law - which is a load of rubbish, as you now admit. As I said, the under-18 rule is a corporate guideline which you have gainsayed for eons. As you now admit, fiction relating to incest. non-consent, BDSM is only covered by the 1st Amendment and state law.

Again, you post sweeping statements that are just patently untrue. People can establish themselves as trademarks. You throw these false claims out with no backup of legality.

As I have said before, from different azimuths, you and scouries are trying to destroy the raison d'être of Lit.

You should be ashamed of yourself.

 

[sr71plt]

sr, I'm only trying to point out to writers you disdain to read, that your view of erotica is rather 'literary' and a world away from the nursery bed of Lit.

Bullshit. Just another one of your lies to cover up what a phony you are. I write all across the board in what I have posted here. (Including incest and nonconsent/rape. My last story--posting last Thursday--was a straight one in the nonconsent category. Your last one--posted five years ago--wasn't even a story.)

And I have not posted that Lit. is following the law by not posting under 18 sex here. I have said consistently and frequently that they have chosen to impose this rule themselves by personal choice (which is their privilege) and/or to avoid scrutiny because of the type of folks under 18 sex stories attract to the site.

Your reading comprehension skills have repeatedly been shown to be close to a zero, and you are a vicious liar when you are beating the drums on one of your hate campaigns.

What do you know of erotica? And why do you bother to comment at all on what should be submitted where to the categories? The last work you have posted to Literotica was an essay on bra sizes posted five years ago.

On top of it all, you are crazier than a loon.

Interesting, though, what you chose not to respond to in my challenges to you here.

 

[estragon]

Getting back to the point of this thread, as near as I can parse the Literotica algorithm, it is that sexual activity is a no-no, if the activity (even if purely within a character's mind) is focussed on the age of the underaged character. This notwithstanding that the underaged character is miles away from the activity and has no knowledge of it, and certainly no participation in it.

I had a fetish story bounced for that reason. The protagonist was a panty-sniffer working in a commercial laundry, and the underaged character was a 12-year-old girl whose laundry was being processed at the commercial site. Absolutely barred. I posted either at AH or EF on the subject, and was told this was an absolute no-no. So I never published the story, even though plenty of other sites are available.

As for drinking, the key seems to be keeping the drinking and sex absolutely separated, although I never wrote a story involving underaged drinking. Of course, simply mentioning an age under 18 years seems to set off alarm bells on Literotica.

 

[sr71plt]

Getting back to the point of this thread, as near as I can parse the Literotica algorithm, it is that sexual activity is a no-no, if the activity (even if purely within a character's mind) is focussed on the age of the underaged character. This notwithstanding that the underaged character is miles away from the activity and has no knowledge of it, and certainly no participation in it.

I had a fetish story bounced for that reason. The protagonist was a panty-sniffer working in a commercial laundry, and the underaged character was a 12-year-old girl whose laundry was being processed at the commercial site. Absolutely barred. I posted either at AH or EF on the subject, and was told this was an absolute no-no. So I never published the story, even though plenty of other sites are available.

As for drinking, the key seems to be keeping the drinking and sex absolutely separated, although I never wrote a story involving underaged drinking. Of course, simply mentioning an age under 18 years seems to set off alarm bells on Literotica.

I agree. Thinking it's the legality of the act itself--rather than the effect of a story written about the act--that bounces a story here is a false issue, I think. Incest, rape, sex with a minor, blackmail, and murder are all illegal where the site is registered. But it's not against the law to write about them, and I don't think that is the issue that motivates Lit. to reject a story from the site (and it's Lit.'s privilege to bounce a story from the site for whatever reason the owners want to have. It's a privately owned site).

I think, in walking the line, you have to deal with the Lit. owners' tastes (which you can only do by testing them out) and with considering what sort of reader might be encouraged to use the site by what you have put into your story--especially concerning acts that are illegal as acts.

The site isn't puritanical across the board.

And most of the problems associated with stories being bounced here come up in the nonhuman/computer bot selection process. If you are patient enough to get to the human editor, chances are very good your story will get through as written or with only minor adjustment.

 

[estragon]

So, briefly, as one of MugsyB's or SA Penn Lady's hockey players might put it, "Shoot the puck, it might go in!"