Porn? Erotic art?

[Shankara20]

I like photos of naked people. All sorts of naked people. Nudists. Smut porn of people fucking. Self-play photos. Artsy erotica. All sorts.

Tumblr provides me the some porn. The adult section of Flickr is my preferred place to collect photos because most are real people posting their own sex photos. Seeing a couple post their own fuck photos is so much hotter then body-beautiful professional porn most of the time.

I stumbled this quote from a interview about feminists today:

"Moran then argued that the new generation of feminists should not believe that pornography is bad for women. “Pornography is just some people having sex that we’re watching. I can’t see why, as a feminist, it would damage me to see people having sex,” she argued. “All through history, we’ve seen people having sex — it’s on vases, and vellums, and scrolls. That’s fine. It didn’t damage us as people. Now more than 90% of teenagers in the world get their sex education from pornography so, as a good and strident feminist, I think the thing to do is not try to ban pornography.”

full article link

So much of the anti-violence against women folks (the work I do and the people I work with) are against all porn as degrading and objectifying, not just the violent porn. There is also the problem of exploitation and we can discuss that is anyone is so inclined

I just can not bring myself to fully agree.

Question if all porn = bad, is there room for erotic art that is just fine and dandy? How do you define porn? Erotic art?

Seeing naked people having fun with their own and their lovers "bits", and getting all drippy and hot and stuff looking at it (and maybe wanking every now and then ) - what is the harm?

​

 

[DeepGreenEyes]

You'll get no argument from me. I like porn. Not all porn, or even most - I have specific tastes, like everyone. Tastes vary in everything.

This is speaking in general terms. I know that people are often exploited to make porn, and this bothers me. But unless it's obvious, I try not to think about it. Like when I eat meat.

I do think that it's now available to younger children in a porn tsunami, and in a variety of ways that it wasn't before. And probably before they are equipped to make sense of what they are seeing and somehow reconcile it to their developmental stage in life.

 

[Stella_Omega]

The problem with feminist theory is that it ought to simply be human theory, the way the theory that men talk is.

Ghettoing it as such a separate and special thing makes each and every woman who says anything-- and there are as many women talking as there are women to talk-- forces each one of them to be a Spokeswoman™ instead of a thinker.

Andrea Dworkin was just a woman-- one of millions. She had been battered and abused by her husband and forced into prostitution and pornography, and her entire world was colored ugly thereby. So she spoke up. Can you blame her? No. Does she speak for every woman? No. Do people accord her way more authority than they probably should, and let her words influence global theory? Yeah, unfortunately, she is still the big noise in a small room.

I like some photos, and my fave tumblr for that is sexisnottheenemy

But I really get off on drawn images-- hentai and yaoi, and certain fan artists such as soporsensuality and ponderosa21 on tumblr

 

[graceanne]

This would get me literally shot if I said this to ... well anyone I'm related to, but I think that not all nude photography is porn. In fact, when my goddaughter was pregnant she had me take some pictures of her naked as a present for her fiance and it was not at all pornographic, it was beautiful and sexy.

 

[graceanne]

But I really get off on drawn images-- hentai and yaoi, and certain fan artists such as soporsensuality and ponderosa21 on tumblr

I like nude art, but when it comes to porn I really dislike real people porn - I prefer drawn images, too, because it's not real people.

 

[BiBunny]

I don't understand why people think porn is exploitative against women, blah, blah, blah. Most women get into it for the money. *Shrug*

 

[Lord_Michael]

"The difference between pornography and erotica is lighting."

-- Gloria Leonard

 

[Blase]

For the longest time I thought the "exploitation of women" argument against porn had to do with not paying them fairly, the same way that major record labels sometimes exploit artists.

There are things that we have to be careful of: When people object to the exploitation of women in porn I think they're mostly talking about the objectification of them. But does objectification equal exploitation? I would say that it can, but not automatically.

Porn is mostly meant to be a sex toy, so to speak; an aid in masturbation or even in one's own sexual encounters. Everyone knows that, including the performers. And as long as they've entered the situation willingly, its a valid transaction; certainly nothing to scandalize people in BDSM, where men and women agree to be objectified all the time.

That said, we still need to retain an awareness of what's happening and remember that, when the camera stops rolling, the woman gets to put her clothes back on, stop being an object for our entertainment and and go back to being simply another person who is our equal.

If porn is made or treated in such a way that anyone is encouraged to forget that, then there is indeed cause for concern.

 

[Stella_Omega]

For the longest time I thought the "exploitation of women" argument against porn had to do with not paying them fairly, the same way that major record labels sometimes exploit artists.

no... it's about genes and chromosomes. In general, men are more responsive to visual stimuli, so they buy more visual porn, so visual porn is made for them, and thus it sells more.

Google for "environmental psychology" please. Men respond to visual porn because it's made for them. If there is porn that women can relate to, they respond to it. The mainstream makes porn for men because they are men making porn. The term "exploit" is being used a little bit differently here. Porn doesn't necessarily exploit the actors (male and female) although it has done so in the past: it presents an image of women as objects for a dick to get into. And mainstream porn so rarely presents an image of any woman who is more than an object for a dick to get into, or who isn't an object at all-- we can pretty much say that all women, in the pron world, are objects for dicks.

(Men are generally not portrayed as anything except a dick, and only rarely is a man portrayed as a thinking human being, which doesn't exactly offer a role model to men in sex)

If anything, it seems to me that porn exploits men, the same way that smutty vampire novels exploit women.

It caters to the demographic, yeah.

But porn shows women who behave in a certain way, and may, possibly lead men to expect that behavior. Vampire novels present vampires in a certain way, and may, possibly, lead women to expect that behavior from vampires. The odds of men running into women, however, is infinitely higher than the odds of women running into vampires.

 

[Shankara20]

I don't understand why people think porn is exploitative against women, blah, blah, blah. Most women get into it for the money. *Shrug*

There is another aspect to this that is exploitation in other ways - in general women do not have the same access to well paying jobs as men.

Some women find that they can use there sexuality is earn $$$$ - as long as they fit a "certain age/body shape/look".

It seems to me that the women doing the more edgy porn are moving outside that "certain age/body shape/look" and need to be willing to do things they might not want to do if they were more "marketable".

And if doing this work support their drug habit then I question how "free will" it is.

 

[Shankara20]

Like when I eat meat.

Very interesting comment. Thanks for that, it is useful.

 

[Shankara20]

I like some photos, and my fave tumblr for that is sexisnottheenemy

But I really get off on drawn images-- hentai and yaoi, and certain fan artists such as soporsensuality and ponderosa21 on tumblr

(sounds of Shank logging into his Tumblr account)

 

[Quinn71]

Pornography is a very subjective term. One person's porn is another person's art. In the 21st cntury there is room for all views.

I like photos of naked people. All sorts of naked people. Nudists. Smut porn of people fucking. Self-play photos. Artsy erotica. All sorts.

Tumblr provides me the some porn. The adult section of Flickr is my preferred place to collect photos because most are real people posting their own sex photos. Seeing a couple post their own fuck photos is so much hotter then body-beautiful professional porn most of the time.

I stumbled this quote from a interview about feminists today:

"Moran then argued that the new generation of feminists should not believe that pornography is bad for women. “Pornography is just some people having sex that we’re watching. I can’t see why, as a feminist, it would damage me to see people having sex,” she argued. “All through history, we’ve seen people having sex — it’s on vases, and vellums, and scrolls. That’s fine. It didn’t damage us as people. Now more than 90% of teenagers in the world get their sex education from pornography so, as a good and strident feminist, I think the thing to do is not try to ban pornography.”

full article link

So much of the anti-violence against women folks (the work I do and the people I work with) are against all porn as degrading and objectifying, not just the violent porn. There is also the problem of exploitation and we can discuss that is anyone is so inclined

I just can not bring myself to fully agree.

Question if all porn = bad, is there room for erotic art that is just fine and dandy? How do you define porn? Erotic art?

Seeing naked people having fun with their own and their lovers "bits", and getting all drippy and hot and stuff looking at it (and maybe wanking every now and then ) - what is the harm?

​

 

[Shankara20]

That said, we still need to retain an awareness of what's happening and remember that, when the camera stops rolling, the woman gets to put her clothes back on, stop being an object for our entertainment and and go back to being simply another person who is our equal.

If porn is made or treated in such a way that anyone is encouraged to forget that, then there is indeed cause for concern.

Agree.

It is those few folks that think porn is real life, fixate those acts and then come to expect the same stuff in their sex lives that trouble may start.

 

[Shankara20]

(Men are generally not portrayed as anything except a dick, and only rarely is a man portrayed as a thinking human being, which doesn't exactly offer a role model to men in sex)

....

But porn shows women who behave in a certain way, and may, possibly lead men to expect that behavior. Vampire novels present vampires in a certain way, and may, possibly, lead women to expect that behavior from vampires. The odds of men running into women, however, is infinitely higher than the odds of women running into vampires.

But what about vampire dicks?

 

[BiBunny]

There is another aspect to this that is exploitation in other ways - in general women do not have the same access to well paying jobs as men.

Porn is one of the very few industries in which a woman can earn more money than a man, so I'm not sure how that makes it exploitative.

Some women find that they can use there sexuality is earn $$$$ - as long as they fit a "certain age/body shape/look".

It seems to me that the women doing the more edgy porn are moving outside that "certain age/body shape/look" and need to be willing to do things they might not want to do if they were more "marketable".

Actually, any woman who's willing can make money in porn or the adult industry overall. Looks are less important than you'd think because of Rule 34. And people do "edgier" porn because, generally speaking, it pays more.

And if doing this work support their drug habit then I question how "free will" it is.

I work in adult--and have posed naked for $$$--because I have a food habit and a house habit that I have to support. Most people are victims of what amounts to wage slavery one way or the other. The work we do is just incidental.

If I sound defensive, it's because these kind of arguments are nearly always made by people who have no idea what the fuck they're talking about (please note that this doesn't mean you personally, Shank). All women in adult aren't drug-addled, daddy-issue-having abuse victims being "exploited." A lot of us are just smart bitches who quickly figured out that this kind of thing is about the fastest way to separate a man from his money. *Shrug*

 

[Stella_Omega]

I would do porn, if the right project happens. I have a sex habit, but no drug addictions.

Thing is, I want to make the kind of porn I want to see, and there aren't any companies making that. Hell, I've talked to Ernest Green about it. He doesn't want to invest in queer women's porn, and you know why? It's because he has a lot of people depending on him for their paychecks. He can't afford to take the time money and energy away from the surefire sellers to do something that he has no idea how to market.

 

[BiBunny]

I would do porn, if the right project happens. I have a sex habit, but no drug addictions.

Thing is, I want to make the kind of porn I want to see, and there aren't any companies making that. Hell, I've talked to Ernest Green about it. He doesn't want to invest in queer women's porn, and you know why? It's because he has a lot of people depending on him for their paychecks. He can't afford to take the time money and energy away from the surefire sellers to do something that he has no idea how to market.

I would love to market something like that. I just wouldn't have the money to back it!

 

[desertslave]

Porn is one of the very few industries in which a woman can earn more money than a man, so I'm not sure how that makes it exploitative.



Actually, any woman who's willing can make money in porn or the adult industry overall. Looks are less important than you'd think because of Rule 34. And people do "edgier" porn because, generally speaking, it pays more.



I work in adult--and have posed naked for $$$--because I have a food habit and a house habit that I have to support. Most people are victims of what amounts to wage slavery one way or the other. The work we do is just incidental.

If I sound defensive, it's because these kind of arguments are nearly always made by people who have no idea what the fuck they're talking about (please note that this doesn't mean you personally, Shank). All women in adult aren't drug-addled, daddy-issue-having abuse victims being "exploited." A lot of us are just smart bitches who quickly figured out that this kind of thing is about the fastest way to separate a man from his money. *Shrug*

Bunnyhugs! I've had two friends in the still/film porn industry, and both of them were clean "nice" women who did it for the money while getting through school. About the biggest complaint I ever heard was the fact that they had to do their own makeup and costumes, and that the makeup part could be a PITA because of repairs between takes, etc.

One woman was working towards paralegal, and the other in fashion design.

I have to say, if I were reasonably photogenic and got asked, I would pose or perform in a heartbeat for the money. Starving artists gotta do what they gotta do.

 

[graceanne]

But porn shows women who behave in a certain way, and may, possibly lead men to expect that behavior. Vampire novels present vampires in a certain way, and may, possibly, lead women to expect that behavior from vampires. The odds of men running into women, however, is infinitely higher than the odds of women running into vampires.

AND, in the case of vampire novels, they don't involve real people anymore than drawn porn does. No one can claim that the poor vampires was exploited anymore than they could claim that the poor cartoon character was exploited.

 

[catalina_francisco]

"Moran then argued that the new generation of feminists should not believe that pornography is bad for women. “Pornography is just some people having sex that we’re watching. I can’t see why, as a feminist, it would damage me to see people having sex,” she argued. “All through history, we’ve seen people having sex — it’s on vases, and vellums, and scrolls. That’s fine. It didn’t damage us as people. Now more than 90% of teenagers in the world get their sex education from pornography so, as a good and strident feminist, I think the thing to do is not try to ban pornography.”

full article link

So much of the anti-violence against women folks (the work I do and the people I work with) are against all porn as degrading and objectifying, not just the violent porn. There is also the problem of exploitation and we can discuss that is anyone is so inclined

I just can not bring myself to fully agree.

Reminds me of my final year at university. I was topping the feminism class with a well known feminist lecture and presented my theme for final paper as dealing with pornography and prostitution and how it was not necessarily anti-feminist. LOL, she asked me if I was sure I wanted to risk my high marks (she felt both areas were enemies of the feminist movement). Fortunately, I went ahead with my paper, and did such a good job of arguing my point, she gave me top marks again and admitted I had actually given her something to think about and possibly change her stance.

So no, I don't see it as necessarily bad, in some cases quite the opposite. Of course in situations where women are forced into either situation by another person or through addiction or financial issues when they otherwise would do anything to stay away, it is another story...one which is usually popularised in media and fiction.

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