Poor Taste

[karmadog]

I've always wanted to know this but I was too embarassed to ask. It's hard to believe, but I don't like looking like an idiot.

Is it in poor taste to ask a poet what their poem means? Sometimes I'll read a poem and have no idea what the poet is writing about, but others seem to get it so I assume it's just me.

What are your thoughts? Would it offend you that someone didn't understand what you had put so much soul-baring work into? Would you just think the person asking was an idiot? Would it flatter you that they cared enough to ask?

 

[WickedEve]

LOL

I'm always wanting to ask what a poem means. I thought I was the only who just didn't get it!
Karma, send an email telling the poet it's great, but could they please give you their interpretation of it.
I was told by UP not to explain a poem unless asked.

 

[Star At Sunrise]

Hmm...

That's a hard question. I guess some writers would feel insulted, but I wouldn't. A writer needs to have attention called to any possible confusing works, I think. If I wrote a play that was confusing, I can't go into every theatre after every show and explain what I meant to say to every single audience member.

If someone still wants to persist in writing confusing poems, more power to them. But I believe a majority of writers want to write things people can understand, and they should know if their work might not be working for some people.

But no, writers can ramble on for hours about what their work means. They love the attention!

"Hey Dude, I just read your poem. What the hell were you on?"

 

[Lauren Hynde]

MHO

I've been asked to explain some of my work, and most times I really don't mind, but I guess that kind of things differ from person to person...

OK, no bullshit: I'm my own favorite conversation topic, but I wouldn't go as far as to even bring the subject of my work up in a normal chat, unless it's simply to ask my friends to read it, but on some degree, that's what we all want, to convey a message to some one else. Even if you do write on your secret diary, there's always that little voice inside your head that will always turn out and whisper "should I show him this" or "what if she finds that". And you'll never know if the message you're trying to imprint on that piece of paper gets through if you don't talk about it with someone else.

So, I'd go with Eve on this one: Ask questions, formulate judgements, give your opinion, what you thought was being said. If the author doesn't want to answer, he/she won't! simple as that...

 

[Lauren Hynde]

...or even better, the author might respond with yet another poem, like mr Billy Collins did with this pearl Angeline brought to us in smithpeter's thread:


Introduction to Poetry

I ask them to take a poem
and hold it up to the light
like a color slide

or press an ear against its hive.

I say drop a mouse into a poem
and watch him probe his way out,

or walk inside the poem's room
and feel the walls for a light switch.

I want them to waterski
across the surface of a poem
waving at the author's name on the shore.

But all they want to do
is tie the poem to a chair with rope
and torture a confession out of it.

They begin beating it with a hose
to find out what it really means.

 

[smithpeter]

I once commented to Eve about one of her poems.
I found it erotic and seductive. Invoking feelings that I was unaware I had.
It turned out to be about some old piece of furniture.
We have not communicated since.
I felt so foolish.

 

[The Huntsman]

reposted

Thought I should put this where it belongs: by the bye, I tried to delete the "Ha!" thread, but was informed that I haven't the authority to do this.

I have been told that the greatest insult a Poet could give, would be to explain his or her poem to the reader/audience!

I agree with the spirit of this statement, but I don't think it addresses our business here - the progressive fine-tuning of our poetic meditations.

As you can see, I just rambled a bit about two of my poems to help clarify.

As to confusion: I am reminded of a parable regarding the Crooked Tree.
A master commands a student to find an angle from which a gnarly pine appears to stand straight.
The student goes so far as to suspend himself above the tree, and to lay against its roots. In the end he gives up, concluding the task to be an impossible one. The master never reveals the answer.
The student returns down the mountain. Once among his peers, he seeks their advice, consulting with others to combine his efforts with the greater whole.
The answer, he learns, is this:
to see the crooked Tree in a straight line, he must simply look straight at it.

...of course, there are poems more crooked than any pine

Ihmara

 

[WickedEve]

I once commented to Eve about one of her poems.
I found it erotic and seductive. Invoking feelings that I was unaware I had.
It turned out to be about some old piece of furniture.
We have not communicated since.
I felt so foolish.

It's true! I had to block his email.

By the way, what's your poem, It's A Mad Mad Mad Mad Orgasm, about? Is it really about an orgasm, or is it a metaphor for fishing?
I just don't get it!

 

[smithpeter]

Ihmara

Did the student come to this realization by asking others or through some epiphany of his own?
Did he die happy in his disillusionment?

 

[The Huntsman]

He cheated

He asked another Master, once he was down among his peers.

He returned with the answer, but the Master at the mountain's top discerned that the student had not figured it out on his own. The Master knew that the student had not incorporated the answer - as though he had been told to make a fire and given a match, but insisted upon striking with the wooden end. He had the tool, but not the technique.

He was sent back down the mountain to try again.

Ihmara

 

[OT]

I think you'd be hard pressed to find a writer that didn't welcome the chance to talk about what they wrote.

The (sometimes hard to admit) truth is that we writers crave attention.

The bell curve applies to writers too -- so there are no doubt some bottom feeders who would turn up their nose at the unwashed who dared to question the author's (obvious) perfect communication skills.

That said, after the first round of questions, you have to re-evaluate. If after the first answer you still "just don't get it", then it may be that the style and or subject are just not your thing. Communication beyond this point may get uncomfortable on either side. It is very civilized to simple aggree to disagree.

O.T.

peek at my stuff

 

[daughter]

Please tell me when I'm unclear or not understood

Karmadog--

I think it's unfortunate whenever a reader feels as you describe. Forums exist expressedly for feedback. I want to know how my work affects you. If something is unclear, I welcome your concerns.

Often times I don't get works. Sometimes it is my own ignorance of the mechanics of poetry and sometimes it is because the writer does fail to create the bridge. In either case, the opportunity to discuss a work is something I want to foster. Does it matter that I have immediate comprehension behind a read or that ultimately I have some understanding I value?

Ask any veteran poet, and he'll tell you that poetry is an intimate communication between writer and reader. Poetry is interactive. All writing is conveying a message in such a way that another can comprehend it. If the communication is unsuccessful, I think it is invaluable to get that kind of feedback and to discuss where the gap lies.

I'd rather look foolish than remain ignorant because I failed to share what I got or didn't get out of a read.

Often times, the reader will see more than the writer had intended. Merle Collins shared at a lecture I attended that she was always interested and often pleased to hear how students interpretted her work. I concur. It is always exciting to hear how someone views your work even if it is confusion.

Peace,

daughter

 

[just pet]

There are many ways to enjoy poetry. I hope that my work is enjoyed on its own merit and touches without explanation. Many anthologies are annotated to increase appreciation of a poem. If one is fortunate enough to be able to contact the poet, it does no harm to ask the story behind, or more insight about a certain line. I love to hear the history of a poem.

pet

 

[REDWAVE]

Visual, but not too abysmal . . .

I cream over your avs, just pet. The one on top (naturally) is a haughty femdomme, very high-strung, eyes flashing with fire, cruel and arrogance to her pussyslave (slaves?), but with a smooth gesture of tenderness here and there . . .

The submissive on the bottom (again, natch) is tender and yielding, patiently waiting for her lover and Mistress, grateful for the slightest sign of favor and affection, however contemptuously cast . . .

DAMN! Uhh, what was the subject again? Somehow I feel I digressed there . . .

 

[karmadog]

Redwave, look again. That top is wearing restraints.

I think I wasn't clear on what I meant in this thread. BTW, OT, I'm an idiot but I do bathe most days. Seriously, what I'm trying to say is that learning to read poetry is like learning another language. I've reached the point where I can ask where the bathroom is, but sometimes, in a restaurant, I'll think I'm ordering a steak, but what I really asked for was a chance to lick the waitresses grandmother.

Is it so bad to ask a bilingual person to help, or do poets have to be snooty Parisians (actually, I love Parisians. Always dancing around with Gene Kelly and all)?

 

[daughter]

Understood

Karma--

I understood your question and I agree that poetry is in many ways another language. I think to fully appreciate French a little study makes sense and so asking the Frenchman for a little translation help is acceptable.

I haven't been bilingual long nor am I proficient at it so I'm no snob about it. lol

This goes back to our earlier discussion about literacy. The more you read the more you discover how much you don't know about the art you like. Study and reading reveals mechanics you previously were ignorant of.

The hobby writer may not know much about the technical side of writing so if you ask him what he meant or how he tried to accomplish something, he might not have an answer because he hasn't studied and/or relied solely on feeling. Furthermore, even the learned are moved by forces beyond mechanics and so he may not have a clear answer either. However, the painted who has studied strokes will at least be able to tell you if he chose one technique over another.

I preferred the works of those committed to their craft. I don't object to rejection of convention. I'm simply not impressed with those who do so uniformed. Let a decision to reject or incorporate something be a conscious, deliberate decision.

Thanks for always starting engaging, thought provoking discussions. I appreciate it.

Peace,

daughter

 

[REDWAVE]

Drag you, dog!

Darn you, karmadog, you just had to spoil my trip, didn't you? Yeah, yeah, I saw the restraints, but I couldn't help going off on a little flight of fancy there. After all, two subs don't make a very good mix.

I think most (if not all) authors are delighted to get any attention, except the real nasty, negative sort. I also think many poems (and some stories) are deliberately written in such a way as to be ambiguous, open to more than one possible interpretation. (I know many of my own are.) Finally, even if you ask an author for an interpretation of his or her work, how do you know you'll get a straight answer? How do you know the "interpretation" won't be more cryptic than the work itself?

I'm reminded here of Gorgias the Sophist, who argued that even if anything did exist and it would be possible to have any knowledge of it (both of which which he denied), it would be impossible to communicate that knowledge.

 

[karmadog]

Two subs sound good to me!!!

D, the problem is that it isn't just the mechanics that one has to learn. I remember a poem on Lotus that everyone praised, but quite frankly, I didn't fully get it. I could read it aloud and appreciate the beauty, but he could have been describing a lover or lamenting a lost puppy for all I knew.

 

[daughter]

give us both more credit

Karmadog--

I agree again. It is more than a matter of mechanics. Forgive me if I implied that. I disagree with others who'd argue that we really can't know. The author has something to say. Writing is a communication so it matters that you comprehend something. I won't judge if what you understand is right or wrong or better than some other interpretation.

But I'm not buy any dung about it doesn't matter. If what you have to say is insignificant and doesn't matter, be quiet.

Tell me the specific poem if you remember.

Many know I could care less how popular a work is. That doesn't influence my appreciation nor my comprehension of the work. I still argue that investigation and dialogue is fruitful. The exploration matters, the 'answer' may likely be elusive.

Milton's, "Paradise Lost" is lost on me and I majored in English. Why do folks think if you major in literature you're suppose to get it? Go figure. I still have the text and one day, I'll read the damn thing again and hope that age and a having a few more years of study crammed in will serve me on the next go round. As a college freshman, every nuance that I actually understood was a milestone.

Peace,

daughter

 

[Angeline]

I think there are different levels of 'getting' a poem. Sometimes one can simply appreciate the way the writer plays with words: the range and nuance of language. Sometimes I read a poem and really don't understand overall what the writer is trying to say, and still I'm swooning over the way a certain phrase was turned. Sometimes I know my understanding has been off the mark in terms of what the writer wanted me to see but, if what I found was meaningful and enjoyable for me, then the poem has succeeded in some way. I also know as a writer that sometimes I need readers to help me clarify what I meant: my self-awareness ain't always the best!

On the other hand, I recognize that all writing is about communication between reader and writer. That is why I find myself appreciating more and more writers like Billy Collins or even Neruda, who writing is so simple (yet beautiful and powerful) that it's hard to miss the meaning.

 

[Angeline]

Ted Berrigan had some thoughts on this

the late great ted berrigann had some fascinating thoughts on this subject--he gave a series of lectures about poetics that are reprinted in a book called On the Level Every Day. Here's one of them.

http://epc.buffalo.edu/authors/berrigan/incredible.html

 

[karmadog]

Angeline, thanks for the link. Did you see the relevant part to be where he discusses if
you’re serious you have poet friends, not to say something would be great if you changed
a word or two, but just to do it together (and ultimately end up in the sanatorium)?

Or the part about showing them to people who will be impressed?

D, I can't remember who the poet was or the poem. I went looking for it, but I couldn't find it.

I wasn't saying that it (the imagery? the structure?) didn't matter, I was saying that I had NO idea what the poem was about. And here is one of the beefs that I have with the poets on this site. I think that most of them are afraid of looking dumb just like me. They will say, "That was a terrific poem!" and the author will say, "O thank you, thank you. I am overwhelmed with praise."

But isn't praising a poem without giving any specifics about what was so great, just as useless as saying I hate it, it sucks, without ever saying what was so bad? I mean other than the ego stroke of course.

As a "for instance", your poem "Tuck Me In". As I recall, the phrase "you have a thing for hair", was widely misinterpreted to be something sexual, including by me. In the inspiration thread, you explained that is was about a beard. The fact that it was a beard should have been obvious. Those of us who got it wrong, simply didn't read carefully. In that circumstance, of what use was the feedback from those of us who were lazy readers?

I'll tell you what. I'm going to try to start a thread where a reader can give an interpretation of a poem he or she read (carefully), then ask the poet if that was close. Hopefully, the poet who's poem was dissected will respond with a description of what they wanted to say.

 

[REDWAVE]

Something specific

I agree, karmadog. Even if I do a very brief review of, or feedback to, a poem or story, I always give some specifics as to what I liked or didn't like about it. UP was the master of really doing a detailed dissection of a poem.

 

[daughter]

Tuck Me In

Karmadog--

Missing that one line in most instances didn't ruin the read. Like Angeline said even if you don't get everything that doesn't keep us from appreciating a work.

Specifics are great and we don't get enough of them here. However, if a reader even attempts to say what he likes or dislikes that says my poem had some impact enough that the reader wanted to respond.

The line about the beard is a telling element. It required a closer read, but I anticipated the oversight. Connotations are drawn from our experiences and attention to detail.

Many didn't pick up on the subtletities that suggested the relationship was an LDR. That would explain why the beard was a surprise. Some focused on the sensual element and didn't look deeper. But, folks still got something from the read.

I had another reader complain the language in "touch me there" was too plain. He didn't think the poem said much. For many others the plain language spoke to the intimacy of the encounter and the element most found effective, the sound of the read, was totally lost on him. I didn't use $25 dollar words spilled lavishedly across the page and therefore the poem was no big deal. Now I wouldn't call it a masterpiece either, but I was pleased with the exercise. My goal was to create a soothing sound and a sense of intimacy. Many connected with that.

I read "Lady Sings The Blues" as a teen. I never knew the 'white lady' was heroine. The drug and term was foreign to my experience. The writer wasn't unclear and my failure to pick up on it didn't stop me from knowing Billie Holiday had a habit.

When I look back I wondered how did I miss that. The writing was solid, and I got the message despite my ignorance. So yeah, sometimes we miss things and still have insight and other times, a little investigating goes a long way.

Throughtout the conversation you have said, "D, I didn't mean..." but not once did I believe I was not hearing you correctly.

Often times I have to remind myself to listen more and say less. I thinks sometimes we're having inner dialogue while we read and that intefers with our ability to hear what the writer is saying.

Peace,

daughter

 

[JUDO]

Proficiency & Pretense

Just a side note.

I've been a creative my whole life. This is what I have noticed about the relationship between proficiency and pretense.

As an artist gains proficiency, some of them become pretentious (or snobs). Mostly I now believe this is in reaction to their personal level of insecurity about their work. It takes a long time to finally realize that you are an artist.

The fun part about a pretentious artist is that they are going through a growth "phase." Once they get beyond their insecurities, they realize that there is nothing to be pretentious about.


- Judo