Poor Boy Scouts

[3113]

They try and try to serve the community and those darn atheists and gays just won't let 'em. Oh, wait...maybe because they won't let the gays or atheists join their exclusive club

Conservatives on the 9th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals couldn't muster enough votes to rescue the Boy Scouts from the riptide of an Establishment Clause claim. The court denied en banc review Tuesday to a San Diego-based Boy Scouts group in a case that raises tough church-and-state questions (pdf). The appeal drew a wide range of amici: the Justice Department's Civil Rights Division and a group of states -- including Texas and South Dakota -- sided with the Scouts, while California filed for the plaintiffs.

A pair of couples, one lesbian and another agnostic, challenged a lease the Scouts signed with the city of San Diego allowing them to operate recreational facilities on park land. They said the deal violated the Establishment Clause because of the Scouts' professed reverence of God. In addition, they said they were averse to using the facilities because of the Scouts' stated policy of excluding gays and atheists. The district court agreed during pretrial motions and the Scouts appealed. In June, a 9th Circuit panel led by Judge Marsha Berzon granted standing to the plaintiffs, over the objections of Judge Andrew Kleinfeld. Senior Judge William Canby Jr. tilted the decision against the Scouts.

"Just as African-Americans could ride on Montgomery's buses, but not in the front, the Scouts permit plaintiffs to make use of Camp Balboa and the Mission Bay Park Youth Aquatic Center, but do not allow them to be members of their organization and participate in the activities conducted at the camps for members," Berzon wrote. "In either case, use of a valuable public facility is made contingent on acceptance of imposed second-class status within a controlling organization's social hierarchy."

The panel certified questions to the California Supreme Court, but that had to wait for the en banc vote. A group of conservatives -- led by Judge Diarmuid O'Scannlain -- protested the full court's denial. Lawsuits should only be available to plaintiffs with concrete injury, O'Scannlain wrote. "Rather, the claim here is that the families are psychologically injured by the thought of associating with the Boy Scouts; they contend that they would be offended by the Boy Scouts' views if they chose to use the parks," he wrote. "This is an unprecedented theory."

Judges Jay Bybee, Consuelo Callahan, Carlos Bea, Sandra Ikuta and Kleinfeld signed on to the protest in Barnes-Wallace v. Boy Scouts, 04-55732. Four judges recused themselves from the vote without explanation: Ronald Gould, Richard Tallman, Richard Clifton and N. Randy Smith. At the time they were appointed to the court, Gould and Tallman were active in the Boy Scouts.

Full article here.

This happens over and over again and I wish someone would just put an end to it. If the Scouts want to exclude those who don't believe in god or are gay, that's fine. Like any "Church" or other private club they can do that. But that means they have to obey the rules of such exclusive clubs/churches. They can't be supported by the state or given favor by the state over others who would, like the state, have to be inclusive of all by law.

I don't give a fuck how wonderful, helpful, marvelous, or character building the organization has been in the past or still is, they can't have it both ways. Either they follow the law or they don't, and if they don't then they don't get any special favors.

 

[Techomancer]

As a scout of old, I am disgusted with what the organization has become. Tolerance and acceptance used to be taught - guess that got thrown out with the beret.

 

[oggbashan]

UK Scouts are different

This is an extract from the UK Scout Association policies:

Young People
The Scout Association is part of a world-wide educational youth movement. The values which underpin and inspire its work are embodied in the Scout Promise and Law and in the Purpose of the Association.

Within this framework, the Association is committed to equality of opportunity for all young people.

Accordingly:

The Scout Association is committed to extending Scouting, its Purpose and Method to young people in all parts of society.

No young person should receive less favourable treatment on the basis of, nor suffer disadvantage by reason of:

class;

ethnic origin, nationality (or statelessness) or race;

gender;

marital or sexual status;

mental or physical ability;

political or religious belief.

All Members of the Movement should seek to practise that equality, especially in promoting access to Scouting for young people in all parts of society. The Scout Association opposes all forms of racism.

Note: With reference to gender, Membership of the youth Sections of the Association is open to girls and young women of the appropriate ages subject to a process of local self-determination in each Scout Group as to whether existing single-sex provision should become co-educational.

Leaders and other volunteers
To carry out its work the Association seeks to appoint effective and appropriate Leaders, and to involve other volunteers in supporting roles, all of whom are required to accept fully the responsibilities of their commitment.

The overriding considerations in making all appointments in Scouting shall be the safety and security of young people, and their continued development in accordance with the Purpose of the Association.

Accordingly, all those whom the Movement accepts as volunteers must be 'fit and proper' persons to undertake the duties of the particular position to which they have been appointed (including, if relevant, meeting the requirements of the Sponsoring Authority) and, where appropriate, the responsibilities of Membership.

In making an appointment to a particular leadership or support position it may be appropriate to consider the gender and/or ethnicity of the potential appointee, in particular to ensure appropriate composition of leadership or supporting teams.

The physical and mental ability of a particular potential appointee to fulfil a particular role will always be a relevant factor to consider.

Within these constraints, and those imposed by the need to ensure:

the safety and security of young people;

the continued development of young people; and

equal opportunities for all;

no person volunteering their services should receive less favourable treatment on the basis of, nor suffer disadvantage by reason of:

age;

class;

ethnic origin, nationality (or statelessness) or race;

gender;

marital or sexual status;

mental or physical ability;

political or religious belief.

Note: Paedophilia is a bar to any involvement in the Scout Movement.

Note: With reference to religious belief, the avowed absence of religious belief is a bar to appointment to a Leadership position.

In the UK such a legal challenge would fail.

Og

 

[voluptuary_manque]

This is an extract from the UK Scout Association policies:

Young People
The Scout Association is part of a world-wide educational youth movement. The values which underpin and inspire its work are embodied in the Scout Promise and Law and in the Purpose of the Association.

Within this framework, the Association is committed to equality of opportunity for all young people.

Accordingly:

The Scout Association is committed to extending Scouting, its Purpose and Method to young people in all parts of society.

No young person should receive less favourable treatment on the basis of, nor suffer disadvantage by reason of:

class;

ethnic origin, nationality (or statelessness) or race;

gender;

marital or sexual status;

mental or physical ability;

political or religious belief.

All Members of the Movement should seek to practise that equality, especially in promoting access to Scouting for young people in all parts of society. The Scout Association opposes all forms of racism.

Note: With reference to gender, Membership of the youth Sections of the Association is open to girls and young women of the appropriate ages subject to a process of local self-determination in each Scout Group as to whether existing single-sex provision should become co-educational.

Leaders and other volunteers
To carry out its work the Association seeks to appoint effective and appropriate Leaders, and to involve other volunteers in supporting roles, all of whom are required to accept fully the responsibilities of their commitment.

The overriding considerations in making all appointments in Scouting shall be the safety and security of young people, and their continued development in accordance with the Purpose of the Association.

Accordingly, all those whom the Movement accepts as volunteers must be 'fit and proper' persons to undertake the duties of the particular position to which they have been appointed (including, if relevant, meeting the requirements of the Sponsoring Authority) and, where appropriate, the responsibilities of Membership.

In making an appointment to a particular leadership or support position it may be appropriate to consider the gender and/or ethnicity of the potential appointee, in particular to ensure appropriate composition of leadership or supporting teams.

The physical and mental ability of a particular potential appointee to fulfil a particular role will always be a relevant factor to consider.

Within these constraints, and those imposed by the need to ensure:

the safety and security of young people;

the continued development of young people; and

equal opportunities for all;

no person volunteering their services should receive less favourable treatment on the basis of, nor suffer disadvantage by reason of:

age;

class;

ethnic origin, nationality (or statelessness) or race;

gender;

marital or sexual status;

mental or physical ability;

political or religious belief.

Note: Paedophilia is a bar to any involvement in the Scout Movement.

Note: With reference to religious belief, the avowed absence of religious belief is a bar to appointment to a Leadership position.

In the UK such a legal challenge would fail.

Og

Attempting to use the non-establishment clause in the First Amendment to avoid inconvenience to atheists has yet to stand up before the US Supreme Court. Additionally, the Scouts may succeed on their exclusion of gays for a while, but eventually they will have to differentiate between gay men and paedophiles.

Now we here know that those two groups are, for the greater part, not in the least the same. The general public, though, still isn't sure and given how much trouble the organization has had in the past with clandestine paedophiles infiltrating leadership, the Scouts will maintain national sympathy in this. I don't think this challenge will stand before the USSC, should they choose to accept the case.

 

[Safe_Bet]

Hey, as far as I'm concerned, as an organization, they can exclude gays and non-religious people to their hearts content. I might even suggest that they hold all their future meeting at an evangelical church. Then they can exclude them damn queer faggots and them damn ungodly athiests all they want. Hell, maybe they can combine it with a Klan meeting and keep them damn niggers out too!

What they DON"T get to do is use public property (for free) to exclude ANYBODY (either physically or through discrimination). I may be queer, but I pay taxes. Taxes that paid for that property and, therefore, allow me to say I "own" part of it. Sorry, but if EVERYBODY can't freely use it, neither can they.

 

[3113]

Note: With reference to religious belief, the avowed absence of religious belief is a bar to appointment to a Leadership position.[/I]

In the UK such a legal challenge would fail.

*shrug* Yeah. Guess it would. Pity.

I just wish they wouldn't insist on the one hand that they don't tolerate religious discrimination even as they have a note there that they're free to discriminate against atheists.

 

[voluptuary_manque]

Hey, as far as I'm concerned, as an organization, they can exclude gays and non-religious people to their hearts content. I might even suggest that they hold all their future meeting at an evangelical church. Then they can exclude them damn queer faggots and them damn ungodly athiests all they want. Hell, maybe they can combine it with a Klan meeting and keep them damn niggers out too!

What they DON"T get to do is use public property (for free) to exclude ANYBODY (either physically or through discrimination). I may be queer, but I pay taxes. Taxes that paid for that property and, therefore, allow me to say I "own" part of it. Sorry, but if EVERYBODY can't freely use it, neither can they.

Unfortunately, once those taxes are paid, we no longer have much say in where they go. I have lots of objections to things that get paid for out of my taxes. See how much good it does.

And I'd appreciate it if you could tone down the indignation a bit, Sue? People don't learn very well when they're being shouted at, hmmm? And this is, like most things, a question of education.


Oh, and generational shift, too. All things progress, one funeral at a time.

 

[Safe_Bet]

Unfortunately, once those taxes are paid, we no longer have much say in where they go. I have lots of objections to things that get paid for out of my taxes. See how much good it does.

And I'd appreciate it if you could tone down the indignation a bit, Sue? People don't learn very well when they're being shouted at, hmmm? And this is, like most things, a question of education.


Oh, and generational shift, too. All things progress, one funeral at a time.

You see that is where we differ. I believe that we DO get a say. If getting that say means that we need to go to court so that we are heard, fine. That is why the courts are there.

As far as toning it down? I guess you need to live it to understand why that isn't an acceptable alternative. Shouting at people that wish we'd just shut up and go back into the "closet" like good little queers is often the only way of getting their attention. Your an ex-military guy, so I'm sure you understand multiple / varied attacks, hmmm? BTW, education only works on people when you have their attention.

P.S. I'm no longer willing to "wait for them to die" to get my rights as a human being. Far as I'm concerned any non-violent means available can / should / will be used to get what we should have always had from the beginning.

 

[oggbashan]

*shrug* Yeah. Guess it would. Pity.

I just wish they wouldn't insist on the one hand that they don't tolerate religious discrimination even as they have a note there that they're free to discriminate against atheists.

However, in the UK, public land is available for use by all without discrimination on any religious, gender or sexual orientation criteria.

If a Muslim group wants to use a park, or atheists, or gays - no problem. The only groups that DO have a problem are those advocating hatred.

IF the Scout Association or any other organisation wants exclusive use of public land then that request has to be put to public consultation because granting a lease would be temporary alienation of that land. Almost all such requests are non-controversial (otherwise they would probably be refused).

Og

 

[off2bed]

So much hate and intolerance!

 

[oggbashan]

PS. The UK Scout Association includes GIRLS!

The UK Girl Guide Association does not include boys.

Og

 

[midwestyankee]

For what it's worth, it's my understanding that much of the recalcitrance that the Boy Scouts exhibit vis à vis gays in particular stems from pressure put on them by the Mormon church. Scout troops associated with Mormon churches outnumber all other affiliations with the BSA and so they have a lot of clout. A number of years ago, when scouting was being challenged over its anti-gay stance, the Mormons told the BSA that their church-affiliated troops would all pick up and go elsewhere if gays were allowed into scouting just like everyone else.

I was deeply disappointed by the way that the BSA has handled this issue as well as the way that they've handled their concern over atheism as well. As a former Eagle Scout, it's quite distressing for me to that the organization that helped me form my values has strayed so far from the values that I believe it taught me in the first place.

 

[kromen]

What I can't understand is how in the past few years, socuts have gotten lost in the woods on overnight trips, passed out from heat exhaustion while waiting for a Pres. Bush to show up at a jamboree, and eletrocuted themselves erecting a tent at the same jamboree a day earlier. What are they really learning or are they too busy in court fighting to keep people out?

 

[midwestyankee]

What I can't understand is how in the past few years, socuts have gotten lost in the woods on overnight trips, passed out from heat exhaustion while waiting for a Pres. Bush to show up at a jamboree, and eletrocuted themselves erecting a tent at the same jamboree a day earlier. What are they really learning or are they too busy in court fighting to keep people out?

Accidents happen and since I've maintained a relationship with the local troop through my sons I have not noticed any undue rise in the number of accidents at campouts and such. Scouts have been getting lost and injured from the beginning, as one would expect. Camping and other outdoor activities entail risks that cannot be totally eliminated. Ever manage to jump out of the way or a lightning bolt, or wake up and move in the time between the moment when a falling tree hits the top of your tent and the moment when it comes crashing down onto your cot?

 

[Darkniciad]

Religious organizations provide an overwhelming percentage of the meeting places and funding for the BSA. The plain and simple truth is that they cannot go against the dominant opinion of what is nearly their only source of support.

Take away the churches in the U.S., and scouting more or less ceases to exist. The few places where it could survive on other support ( primarily on the east and west coast ) could not sustain the organization, and it would fail.

Here's a couple of questions not answered in the article.

Who, if anyone, was managing these facilities prior to the BSA petition? Were the facilities closed or going to close prior to the petition? Now that the scouts are out, who -- if anyone -- is going to run the facility?

I ask that, because I've seen numerous youth centers, aging campgrounds, and such that only survived because the BSA stepped in and took on the task. I've likewise seen similar protests result in a boarded-up building that serves nobody.

So, was/is anybody else stepping up to the plate?

 

[kromen]

Ever manage to jump out of the way or a lightning bolt, or wake up and move in the time between the moment when a falling tree hits the top of your tent and the moment when it comes crashing down onto your cot?

You have a point. However, when I was scouting we were taught not to erect tents under a power line, use a compass correctly before we were allowed away from the group, and not to sit in the sun with no shade and/or water.

 

[kromen]

Boy Scout officials apologize for comments about deaths
ANCHORAGE (AP) — National Boy Scouts officials apologized for remarks implying that four adult volunteers shared responsibility for their own deaths while setting up a tent beneath a power line at the national Jamboree in Virginia.
Spokesman Stephen Medlicott said Friday the group wanted to clear up "some confusion" about the scouts' position.

The Boy Scouts have "not assigned blame" to the Alaska Scout leaders involved in Monday's deaths, national officials said in a statement issued Thursday.

"We apologize for any statement we've made which might be construed as assigning blame."

The statement came a day after Jamboree spokesman Gregg Shields said the Alaska group had ignored scouting teachings by putting the tent under a power line at Fort A.P. Hill, the Army base where the 10-day event is being held.

He also said the group leaders had taken the "somewhat unusual" step of hiring a contractor to help with the task.

"Boy Scouts are taught not to put their tents under trees or under power lines. I don't know what happened in that case," Shields had said Wednesday.

The Virginia-based tent company hired for the job sent two workers to set up two dining canopies at the Jamboree, Alaska Scout officials said. The tent workers set up the first canopy while the leaders and Scouts set up sleeping tents, Bill Haines, a Scout executive in Alaska, said in a statement Thursday.

The accident occurred when the contractors asked the Alaska leaders for help raising the second canopy, Haines said.

Some Scouts had been watching as the metal pole at the center of the large, white dining tent touched power lines. The men were touching the metal and were electrocuted.

Killed were Michael J. Shibe, 49, Mike Lacroix, 42, and Ronald H. Bitzer, 58, all of Anchorage. Also killed was Scott Edward Powell, 57, who had recently moved from Anchorage to Perrysville, Ohio. Shibe had two sons at the Jamboree and Lacroix had one.

Three adults, including the two tent workers, were injured. One of the injured people returned to the Jamboree after being released from the hospital.

The Army is investigating the accident. The Boy Scouts are "cooperating closely," Medlicott said.

A spokesman for the canopy supplier — Tents & Events, a Fishersville, Va., division of a company called RentQuick.com — said the company is also cooperating with the investigation.

"When it is completed, information will then be available," attorney Michael Harman of Richmond, Va., wrote Friday in an e-mail. "That's all we can say at this point other to extend our condolences and sympathies to the families."

 

[midwestyankee]

You have a point. However, when I was scouting we were taught not to erect tents under a power line, use a compass correctly before we were allowed away from the group, and not to sit in the sun with no shade and/or water.

And, chances are, when you were learning to drive you were taught to never exceed the speed limit, to never drive within several hours of taking a drink, to drive only in the right-hand lane except when passing another car, to follow all cars at a range of 1 car length for every 10 mph of your own speed. Not everyone learns every lesson, nor does everyone always follow every safety-related lesson that he's ever been "taught."

 

[Safe_Bet]

Religious organizations provide an overwhelming percentage of the meeting places and funding for the BSA. The plain and simple truth is that they cannot go against the dominant opinion of what is nearly their only source of support.

Take away the churches in the U.S., and scouting more or less ceases to exist. The few places where it could survive on other support ( primarily on the east and west coast ) could not sustain the organization, and it would fail.

Here's a couple of questions not answered in the article.

Who, if anyone, was managing these facilities prior to the BSA petition? Were the facilities closed or going to close prior to the petition? Now that the scouts are out, who -- if anyone -- is going to run the facility?

I ask that, because I've seen numerous youth centers, aging campgrounds, and such that only survived because the BSA stepped in and took on the task. I've likewise seen similar protests result in a boarded-up building that serves nobody.

So, was/is anybody else stepping up to the plate?

Good question! I had to do some checking to find out, but it is GOOD news -

The Camp is simply a designated 10 acre section of the much larger Balboa Park (~ 1,200 acres). The infrastructure, personnel & maintenance capabilities are already there. No prob.

As to the Aquatic Center, the Old Mission Beach Athletic Club (Muy inclusive bunch, BTW) has already offered to assume management of the facility. Double no problem cuz it is my understanding that they will let the BSA still use the facility for free (without any operational, management and/or prioritization authority). They do insist however, that the BSA move out of the FREE offices that they enjoy on the site. (OMBAC puts on the Over-The-Line Tournament that is televised on ESPN every year)

 

[voluptuary_manque]

Good question DK! I had to do some checking to find out, but it is GOOD news -

The Camp is simply a designated 10 acre section of the much larger Balboa Park (~ 1,200 acres). The infrastructure, personnel & maintenance capabilities are already there. No prob.

As to the Aquatic Center, the Old Mission Beach Athletic Club (Muy inclusive bunch, BTW) has already offered to assume management of the facility. Double no problem cuz it is my understanding that they will let the BSA still use the facility for free (without any operational, management and/or prioritization authority). They do insist however, that the BSA move out of the FREE offices that they enjoy on the site. (OMBAC puts on the Over-The-Line Tournament that is televised on ESPN every year)

I've wanted to go the over the line tournament for years but HM disapproves. Pity. It's not the half-to-fully-naked chicks that bothers her. It's just that I'm such a lightweight when it comes to alcohol she worries about how I'll get home.

Step-papa-in-law was a very low numbered member of the San Diego Yacht Club. 'S why I know some of these things.

 

[rgraham666]

So much hate and intolerance!

Then you should feel right at home.

 

[Darkniciad]

Good question! I had to do some checking to find out, but it is GOOD news -

The Camp is simply a designated 10 acre section of the much larger Balboa Park (~ 1,200 acres). The infrastructure, personnel & maintenance capabilities are already there. No prob.

As to the Aquatic Center, the Old Mission Beach Athletic Club (Muy inclusive bunch, BTW) has already offered to assume management of the facility. Double no problem cuz it is my understanding that they will let the BSA still use the facility for free (without any operational, management and/or prioritization authority). They do insist however, that the BSA move out of the FREE offices that they enjoy on the site. (OMBAC puts on the Over-The-Line Tournament that is televised on ESPN every year)

That works. Like I said, I've seen too many situations where a few people who look for every battle they can find toss out the baby with the bathwater, denying the public at large valuable facilities and services without making any effort to step up to the plate.

In at least two of the incidents that I know about, the original drive for the project was started by a scout organizing for the community service project necessary to advance to Eagle. One managed to complete his requirements, but the other had to start all over after several weeks of personal footwork because two people complained about church and state issues over the youth center, cleaning a public park, landscaping, and finding funding for new equipment.

The youth center never opened again after the scouts closed the doors, eliminating the one and only safe public gathering place for young people in a thirty mile radius. Nothing has ever replaced it to this day ( over a decade later ) The park still looked like ass for another year, full of old, rusting equipment from the 70s, until the scout went forward with the project after attaining Eagle, of his own volition, unconnected to the Scouts.

The same two people brought up a protest, saying it was a front for the scouts, and that quite frankly honked me off, big time. Thankfully, the new local authorities ignored them. They had a year to organize their own fundraisers and people to do the work, but they were too busy looking for something else to be offended by, usually on a weekly basis, including a sign for the scouts adopting a section of highway to keep clean, one of about a dozen such signs for different groups and individuals. The signs all came down, but the scouts just kept picking up trash -- out of uniform once the two bitchers started screaming again.

There's a point where people stop being activists and just turn into enormous, counterproductive pains in the fucking ass.

 

[voluptuary_manque]

That works. Like I said, I've seen too many situations where a few people who look for every battle they can find toss out the baby with the bathwater, denying the public at large valuable facilities and services without making any effort to step up to the plate.

In at least two of the incidents that I know about, the original drive for the project was started by a scout organizing for the community service project necessary to advance to Eagle. One managed to complete his requirements, but the other had to start all over after several weeks of personal footwork because two people complained about church and state issues over the youth center, cleaning a public park, landscaping, and finding funding for new equipment.

The youth center never opened again after the scouts closed the doors, eliminating the one and only safe public gathering place for young people in a thirty mile radius. Nothing has ever replaced it to this day ( over a decade later ) The park still looked like ass for another year, full of old, rusting equipment from the 70s, until the scout went forward with the project after attaining Eagle, of his own volition, unconnected to the Scouts.

The same two people brought up a protest, saying it was a front for the scouts, and that quite frankly honked me off, big time. Thankfully, the new local authorities ignored them. They had a year to organize their own fundraisers and people to do the work, but they were too busy looking for something else to be offended by, usually on a weekly basis, including a sign for the scouts adopting a section of highway to keep clean, one of about a dozen such signs for different groups and individuals. The signs all came down, but the scouts just kept picking up trash -- out of uniform once the two bitchers started screaming again.

There's a point where people stop being activists and just turn into enormous, counterproductive pains in the fucking ass.

It's enough to make you long for the good old days of the public flogging post.

 

[Darkniciad]

It's enough to make you long for the good old days of the public flogging post.

I jokingly suggested donating a plaque dedicating the new shithouses at the park to those two.

 

[off2bed]

Then you should feel right at home.

I'm talking about this thread. So much hate and intolerance against the Boy Scouts. If you don't like them, don't join. Let them do what they want, and go piss up a rope if you can't handle it. Fuck.