Political correctness

[YogiBare]

I've read a number of posts on the Board lately in which people resist the notion of doing something that is different from their mormal behavior in order to show consideration for another's feelings. The suggestion that one might do this is sneeringly dismissed as "political correctness."

However, by definition, showing this restraint does restrict individual expression, or at least limitexpression as to time and place in order to show consideration of others. Some argue that it is even wrong to show this consideration and in so doing that we are making ourselves into a too-soft, whiney society because it encourages people to complain when they are offended.

What do you think about political correctness?

Is the term over-used or used inappropriately?

Have you ever been in a situation in which you were offended or offended others unintentionally? How did you handle it?

Where do you think that the boundary falls between appropriat restraint and undesireable political correctness?

I can't wait to read your responses!

 

[alexander tzara]

I live my life by many of the standards and morals that are at the heart of 'Political Correctness' but I find the term offensive. I don't like to be labelled. I don't like the literal-minded extremist elements in "Political Correctness". For example, people referring to the city of Manchester as "Personchester" just because it has the word "man" in it (even though the name probably comes from a derivation completely unrelated to gender).

So, I would never class myself as "Politically Correct". If someone assumes that that statement means I'm sexist or racist in any way then I'm deeply offended. How dare you try and force me to place all my world views under one limiting banner (with a horrible Andrea Dworkinesque '80s aftertaste to it)?


Was that the kinda thing you were after?

 

[Krankar]

Yogi-

Now that we have entered the 2nd or 3rd decade of PC,it is tremendously easy to offend someone, and often by proxy, fuhgawdssake! The supporters and proponents of PC have taken delicacy to a high art!

Onthe other hand, those who rebel against any consideration for fellow humans are no better. "The first refuge of the ignorant is profanity"

So, how do we extricate ourselves from the quagmire we face? How do we fully express ourselves without pissing off the innocent? I'll try to lead by example, okay?
____________________________________
Fuck all you sissy-assed,delicate,
Politically-Correct Motherfuckers!
Grow a goddamned Spine and say what you feel!!! I sincerely apologize if I have inadvertantly offended any of you good people.
------------------------------------

See? I managed to mix a blend of vague insults to fringe-groups, coupled with blaspheme and profanity, yet my heartfelt apology was politically correct, and made everything all right! We all feel much better now....don't we?

not that there's anything wrong with that...

 

[CelestialBody]

Short answer

 

[Mustang Sally]

I think proponents of political correctness do take it too far at times, especially where gender is concerned. "Personchester" is a good example, alexander. The spelling "womyn" is another dumb one.

Remember vertically-challenged for short? Folically-challenged instead of bald? Those are passe now, happily.

Even if we don't always like political correctness, it has resulted in an awareness about the words we use. It makes us pause before we say (or write) something careless that may, even unintentionally, offend somebody. Is it really such a nuisance to do that much?

 

[SINthysist]

I think when you get to the point that wishing

someone Merry Christmas is over the line, the the politcal correct movement has crossed the line. It's been a part of the American culture for about, what, 500 years? Feliz Navidad.

It also goes too far in suppressing dissention. If you resist the views of the left, you are automatically a bigoted, Neanderthal, gun-toting, confederate-flag waving, hater and xenophobe.

There's no compromise and very little tolerance on the part of the people argueing for greater tolerance. See how the question is posed, "...people resist the notion of doing something that is different from their mormal [sic] behavior in order to show consideration for another's feelings. "

Why should I or anyone else change our behavior as handed down to us in order that another may feel more comfortable with a behavior handed down to then. You see, I come from a highly religeous background full of kind, caring, loving, giving people. People who have fought against injustice and worked hard to make America a great place. You know, do unto others and all of that. But, if I hold true to those values and ideals and reject the PC movement and label it such then I am "...too lazy to reason."

 

[alexander tzara]

Re: Short answer

Who actually knows the root of the name Manchester? *everyone but me, probably

I looked it up in my encyclopedia. The first settlement there was a Roman one, called Mamucium, and that's where the name derives from.

 

[Mustang Sally]

Re: I think when you get to the point that wishing

It also goes too far in suppressing dissention. If you resist the views of the left, you are automatically a bigoted, Neanderthal, gun-toting, confederate-flag waving, hater and xenophobe.

That would be an awfully narrow-minded reaction, and I don't think it could be justified as political correctness. That's intolerance for other people's opinions.

You said it yourself - it's about making others who have different backgrounds more comfortable. America is a multi-cultural country. If everyone is to live in peace and harmony and all that crap, we do have to be considerate.

 

[YogiBare]

alex & CB - Yes, it is very much what I was hoping for. What do people really expect from one another these days?

alex - I'm about where you are on this issue, I think. It's when people censor speech for something that is so unlikely to cause offense ("Manchester/Personchester") that I get mad.

Krankar - The only problem for me is that the lambasting is so loaded with anger that the apology can't possibly be sincere. No, I wouldn't feel happy after something like that.

CB - Are you saying that 1/2 of the people in your poli sci classes show intolerence of minority cultures? How does this manifest itself? How do you feel and what do you do in response?

I think it is inevitable that people who are members of minorities will be much more sensitive to the cultural insensitivity of others. For example, I am the only white staff member (and the boss) on a staff with 10 African Americans and me. 95% of our clients are also African American. It's been pretty painful at times to feel misinterpreted and misunderstood when others here have interpreted things that I have said or done to be racist, when I know in my heart that that is not where I was coming from. Are they being "too sensitive"? No, because, when it is explained to me, I can see how what I said fits into a previous pattern of horrid discrimination and enslavery by whites. How are they to know that this is not what motivates me? It's been a real experience for me and I am learning an incredible amount about the AA culture.

Sally - Your words are so good that I have to quote them:

Even if we don't always like political correctness, it has resulted in an awareness about the words we use. It makes us pause before we say (or write) something careless that may, even unintentionally, offend somebody. Is it really such a nuisance to do that much? ... You said it yourself - it's about making others who have different backgrounds more comfortable. America is a multi-cultural country. If everyone is to live in peace and harmony and all that crap, we do have to be considerate.

To me, this is the heart of the matter!

SINthysist - I think that the clash is not of one set of traditions vs. another, for example, Christmas vs Hannukah vs Rammadan vs Qwaanza (pls. excuse any spelling errors). You may feel comfortable with the idea that Christmas is an American tradition, but I do not. I am a second generation American Jew whose grandparents came to this country to escape the pogroms (murdering, raping, burning Jewish ghettos) that Christians visited upon Jews each Christmas season. A Christmas tree means something very different to me than it does to you. And I am an American just as you are.

 

[Krankar]

In a vague way, I think you got my point- I purposely used an extreme circumstance to illustrate it.

point- there are lines, when crossed, that cannot be "repaired" by "retro PC". PC is ineffective as "damage control", as you noted.
Like everything else in our culture, PC has often been used as a scapegoat and an excape route, to amend the indefensible. Obversely,
many are afraid to speak their own particular truths for fear of offending someone.

Essentially, a short man is short. A fat man is fat. A bald man is bald.
In each case, HE KNOWS IT!!
Does the fat man get his feelings hurt when someone says "thats a fat
watermelon"? If the PC people have their way, he will be justified in being offended and pissy about it.
And all around him will apologize and feel terribly guilty about it.
Jeeez!! Everybody just lighten up!

This whole thing has gotten way out of hand.

 

[SINthysist]

Remember though,

America is the new world, the great melting pot. And while you should hold on to your roots, your past, coming to America is a tacturn admission that you came from a flawed culture. All our forefathers (except some of mine and some other people who were already here) were escaping something, looking for a new start, a new opportunity.

Multi-culturalism runs the risk of Babelyonization (how's that for a word) of America and creates many of the conflicts that we escaped from. I thnk one owes it to the spirit of America to kow-tow, or at least appreciate, and strive to be a part of that which beaconed them in the first place.

Again, to pay homage to who and what you are, yes. Demand that America walk softly around your feelings towards each and everybody's individual heratige, no.

Become part of the melting pot, add to the stew, stop trying to hold yourself (general useage) up as the desert. Don't be the constant victim, but the spice, one of many, of the great American stew.

 

[YogiBare]

Synthysist

America is the new world, the great melting pot. And while you should hold on to your roots, your past, coming to America is a tacturn admission that you came from a flawed culture.

Certainly not in my case - and many others, too. My family came to America for the freedom to be who they were - Jewish - and to find the acceptance and the safety that they were denied in the Ukraine. Same as the Puritans and other Christian sects who were the early European settlers.

Multi-culturalism runs the risk of Babelyonization (how's that for a word) of America and creates many of the conflicts that we escaped from.

Again, I disagree. Multiculturalism makes it possible for oppressed people from anywhere in the world to find sanctuary in America. Multiculturalism's evenhandedness allows Christians to be Christians, Indians to be Indians, Blacks to be Blacks, and Jews to be Jews (and so on). I believe that multiculturalism also makes us stronger as a nation because it invites positive contributions from all of cultures of the world, rather than suppressing all of them but one.

I thnk one owes it to the spirit of America to kow-tow, or at least appreciate, and strive to be a part of that which beaconed them in the first place.

First, I don't agree with the use of the word "kowtow" here, as it means "1. to act in an obsequious manner; show servile deference" (Webster's College Dictionary). That's certainly not the spirit of America and I don't think that it's really what you meant. Second, I do I agree with your fundamental point that it is important for immigrants to become a part of the American culture. And I certainly have done that - flying the American flag, going to baseball games, speaking English, having barbecues and watching fireworks on the 4th of July! But celebrating CHRISTmas is not American! It is CHRISTian. And, like it or not, it WAS the excuse used by SOME Christians to murder my family members. (Caps used for emphasis - not yelling.)

Again, to pay homage to who and what you are, yes. Demand that America walk softly around your feelings towards each and everybody's individual heratige, no.

Yes, of course my feelings are involved here, but that's even beside the point. When the majority group (Christians) tries to say that celebrating one of their holidays is part of what defines being a part of American culture, a very, very dangerous line is crossed. Dangerous for whom? Dangerous for every member of every minority in this country. Why dangerous? Dangerous because it gives the majority permission to shove their holiday down the throats of everyone else. What makes me think that this would happen? Read the thread on Christmas not being PC,especially registered^^'s interactions with Celestial Body, and you will see for yourself. Do I want to give this power to a Christian culture that, for 2000 years, has tried to shove their religion down my people's throats through every kind of persecution imaginable? I think not. My grandparents left that situation in Odessa and Kiev to find Freedom in America. I will not betray their courage by relenting. So please, if you want to wish me well, please wish me a Happy Hannukah, or Happy Holidays. And in return, I will be most pleased to wish you a Merry Christmas.

 

[Azwed]

Careful Yogi you have disagreed with JA and pointed out all the huge flaws in his thinking. He will now procede to get trashed out of his mind and insult your whole familly.

 

[KillerMuffin]

I've never been politically correct, never cared to be.

The big thing about the whole politically correct movement and that total ridiculousness spouted by all the Dworkianites is that they put the burden of offendedness on the wrong individual. PolCor (I can't call it PC anymore *sighs dreamily*) was designed so that people can move through life as inoffensively. The problem with that is you can't be inoffensive and have an opinion. PolCor takes away a person's right to have an opinion and to speak it. Why? Because if someone says something that's not PolCor, then it's their fault when they offend someone. That's the whole problem with it.

People choose to be offended or not. When yoyo goes through his tirades here, and they're all as highly offensive as a tirade can get, who is offended? Whose fault is it that they're offended? Yoyo's or the offended party? People choose to be offended. Most of use choose to ignore yoyo or to laugh at him because we know that he's just like a rabid Chihuahua barking utter yo queiro.

The stud puts it the best. If you don't like what I got to say, plug your ears.

There is also the notion that PolCor stops hate. Well, no it doesn't make a place less hostile. The hostility is from the human, the words are just one form of its expression. There are places where language should be moderated. You don't cuss in a school, you don't use racial epithets anywhere. Not because you can't, but because it's good manners not to. PolCor limits free speech.

Like the whole Merry Christmas thing. Tony should be able to say Merry Christmas if he wants to. However, he shouldn't have a fit because other people want to say happy holidays. It's all the same, the intent is important, not the words.

People are just all fucked up. Any little phrase that can be misconstrued and they leap on it in the full spirit of offendedness just so they can howl about others being offensive. Yes, other people are offensive, whether they should be allowed to be or not is a different subject; one that deals with freedom of expression and its limits. People choose to be offended, people are responsible for the own behavior no matter what the provocation. PolCor thinking takes away that accountability.

What was my point again? I forgot.

 

[RisiaSkye]

Personally, I try to be sensitive to other people's ethnicity (et al) and heritage. However, I have wide areas of ignorance, and I'm sure I mess it up all the time. To me, intent is a very important filter for how I take what people say, and I always hope that the same is true for others. Usually, you can tell who's being a bigot, and who is just using a reflexive speech pattern. For example: If someone calls a person "Black" rather than "African American" or "American Negro," I don't assume that they're being racist. Words have meaning, yes. But the meaning is what we make it, at least to some extent.

About the "multiculturalism" thing: I actually disagree that "multiculturalism" is such a great plan. In education, it's been absolutely ridiculous. Rather than actually studying and learning about the cultural histories of people other than pale skinned Euros, literature courses keep all the dead white guys, and then toss in "representative" token works. Usually that means one woman, one African descended person, one Spanish/Mestizo person, and one Native. That doesn't address the core issues, and it doesn't actually ask anyone to rethink the process that marginalized everyone but the dead white guys in the first place.

I think that the problem with the whole PC thing, and the resultant culture of "multiculturalism" is that it works to make all differences equivalent. Rather than really recognizing the cultural histories it's supposed to work to repair (genocide, for example), it flattens everything out into one general mishmash of equivalence.

For example, I think that Jewish people have a good cause to take umbrage at the expression "Jew you down on the price," but I think that overweight people who bitch about the word "fat" are full of malarkey. I don't think that everyone is entitled to feel victimized, nor that every set of differences is immediate or automatically worthy of kid-glove treatment.

Not all differences are of equivalent meaning, and not all group histories carry the same valences of repression and violence. Some people have more cause to get their knickers twisted than others.

And that's where the trouble starts, when everyone argues over whose victimhood has meaning. I think we're missing the point, profoundly, when we get hung up on creating a space for ourselves in a culture of universal entitlement and victimhood.

If anyone's interested, I read a great chapter on this issue recently. It's in Lisa Lowe's Immigrant Acts. The whole books is a pretty interesting look at Asian-American cultural production, but the chapter on "multiculturalism" is really to the point. Great reading, if you're into that kind of thing.

 

[Krankar]

It is disheartening to read such eloquent words.and indeed, noble thoughts. The talents and insight are truly wasted on a subject that cannot be resolved.

what a gyp....

 

[Laurel]

I guess I'm weird. I never could figure out why it's that hard to respect the cultures and traditions of other people. They celebrate Hannukah? Fine. Others celebrate Christmas? Great. Some guy wants to celebrate the migration of the South American bullfrog? Cool with me. Why the fuck do you care if your neighbor celebrates Kwanza? Why not wish them "Happy Holidays" and be happy that they're doing what they want to do? Politeness and respect are not the same as agreement. This isn't supposed to be a time of year to push your personal religion/cause. It's supposed to be a time of year to celebrate each other. It's sad that we can't put aside our differences and be polite and respectful for a mere month.

 

[PowerOfOne]

I guess I'm weird. I never could figure out why it's that hard to respect the cultures and traditions of other people. They celebrate Hannukah? Fine. Others celebrate Christmas? Great. Some guy wants to celebrate the migration of the South American bullfrog? Cool with me. Why the fuck do you care if your neighbor celebrates Kwanza? Why not wish them "Happy Holidays" and be happy that they're doing what they want to do? Politeness and respect are not the same as agreement. This isn't supposed to be a time of year to push your personal religion/cause. It's supposed to be a time of year to celebrate each other. It's sad that we can't put aside our differences and be polite and respectful for a mere month.

Oh goodness but I do agree with you Laurel. Please don't faint, ok? That is exactly why I say "Happy Holidays" instead of anything else. I am very aware that not everyone celebrates Christmas and even those that do may not do so for the same reasons. At any rate, Happy Holidays to you and your family and Happy Migration of the South American Bullfrog to you! I have to go now and buy some lilly pads. Thanks for the heads-up on that one, I had almost forgotten about it.

 

[sexy-girl]

sorry been a long day and im not going to beable to read all this thread (i know im lazy)


but i just wanted to add that i've said to the board in general that theres some words i dont like to be used when talking about lesbians/gays


now you dont have to listen to me at all and im not going to make you feel bad if you dont wish to listen to me ... but i just felt its up to me to say if i dislike certian phrases being used ... you dont have to care though i would never use political correctness as something to hide behind or as a weapon to attack someone

 

[Thomas Paine]

Like most social concepts in our society, "political correctness" has ceased to have any real meaning. Let's face it, it's most often used in a pejorative sense either by people who have rightly pointed out its excesses or by those dunderheads who rankle at any suggestion that they restrain their baser instincts.

At the basis of "political correctness" is just an attempt to treat people with consideration, a reasonable developmental step for a society undergoing growth. Some people get entirely too agitated over what others want to be called or how their traditions are to be treated and that's why there's any controversy over "political correctness."

In my lifetime alone, the proper term for people of sub-Saharan descent has evolved from "colored" to "Negro" to "black" to "African-American." So what? I seem to have kept up without too much of a struggle, so why is it so hard for others to just accept it? Why should it bother anyone that members of a group to which they do not belong, in the process of evolving into their place in society, have to struggle through a few name changes along the way?

Take the whole issue of sports team mascots. Is it really a blow to any white people that the poor damn Indians, who have been fucked over six ways to Sunday, would like to recover a small shred of their dignity by preventing their heritage from serving as entertainment for a bunch of drunken frat boys and Babbit-ish boosters? It cracks me up to hear supporters of Chief Wahoo who whoops it up for football fans at good ol' State whine about THEIR tradition being threatened. Please...

Now, have there been excesses? Hell, yes. Somebody mentioned Andrea Dworkin and she's a perfect example, as are many people in positions of authority in academia. These are people who don't live in the real world, who think that by using the word, "womyn," or by creating syntactically tortuous handles for everyday experiences, that they are actually accomplishing something. Frankly, these people ought to just shut up unless or until they can make a useful contribution to society.

As for the popular examples cited earlier, has anyone ever really seen or heard the terms "vertically challenged" or "follicaly-challenged," or any of their alleged kin actually used in a serious sense? They're jokes, folks, so don't hold them up as shining examples of how some myth of PC is ruining our otherwise perfect world.

Believe me, I'm as follicaly-challenged as they come. I should know...

 

[SINthysist]

Yogi

In your first rebuttal, you make my point. You came from a place where you could not experience freedom, to one where you could.

In your second you take it to the extreme, but that is what is also happening the other way, it is going into the extreme as people come here, then seggregate themselves into little pockest of thier home culture (which goes back to why we should continue to be a melting pot).
I want diversity, but not at the point of being coerced into a set of behaviors and thought patterns. We should all lead and teach by example. We adopted a Chinese girl to give her a life she could never, ever have had. Now while we try to have an environment that teaches her about the good things of Chinese life, we are not moving to Chinatown and taking up Tai Chi.

I agree, kow-tow is the wrong word, which is why I tried to soften it, perhaps respect would be better. Every Immigrant group seems to be demanding that we respect them more than they respect us.

And on your fourth. It is really just the opposite. All our symbols and traditions are removed while we are forced to display the Menorah, celebrate Kwanzaa (invented in 1966), not fight our enemies during Ramada, and as CB points out, you cannot ignore the Hindu customs, so if anything is being shoved down someone's throat...

 

[registered "^^"]

Re: Yogi

In your first rebuttal, you make my point. You came from a place where you could not experience freedom, to one where you could.

In your second you take it to the extreme, but that is what is also happening the other way, it is going into the extreme as people come here, then seggregate themselves into little pockest of thier home culture (which goes back to why we should continue to be a melting pot).
I want diversity, but not at the point of being coerced into a set of behaviors and thought patterns. We should all lead and teach by example. We adopted a Chinese girl to give her a life she could never, ever have had. Now while we try to have an environment that teaches her about the good things of Chinese life, we are not moving to Chinatown and taking up Tai Chi.

I agree, kow-tow is the wrong word, which is why I tried to soften it, perhaps respect would be better. Every Immigrant group seems to be demanding that we respect them more than they respect us.

And on your fourth. It is really just the opposite. All our symbols and traditions are removed while we are forced to display the Menorah, celebrate Kwanzaa (invented in 1966), not fight our enemies during Ramada, and as CB points out, you cannot ignore the Hindu customs, so if anything is being shoved down someone's throat...

Sin you are more a part of the cure then the problem, I applaud the way you bring up your child. You teach her the good of all cultures, not isolating her in just one.
And only in America can a M&M generate some many stimulating posts and get the so called Academia nuts thinking, which is the purpose of a BB. It is not just for I am leaving threads. I like Laurel's sig line, but in the modern day and age a blender is much more effective then a spoon.
I set back and laugh at all the comments aimed at registered "^^", when not one of you even no my age,sex, religion,creed or heritage, and I especially like me being credited with Christmas as my Holiday. Even though it has been around far longer then me and will be for eons after my departure.

It simply boils down to what I first said, just enjoy the fact the we speak to each other and wish a Merry Christmas. It beats the hell out of killing each other over the petty shit that they do in many third world countries.



Long live the "Duke"

 

[Lost Cause]

"PC" is a way to circumvent the Bill of Rights, and crush free speech. It is a "Taliban" way of suppressing free thought on campus, as well as in society. If someone misinterprets what you said, you can be fired from about any position anywhere. If your opinion differs from a more vocal group (pick any), you are shouted down, and pressure is put on administrators, and employers to silence you!
**My opinion?......Fuck those people!..Fuck PC! Fuck them and the gay baby whales they rode in on!
**Do I watch myself? Only when my job depends on it. (see above)
**The Future? These "PC" people better be careful, the pendelum can swing the other way...and they could be in the sights of others that view their behavior, opinions, and speech as "dangerous". History is full of these backfires.

 

[alexander tzara]

Ok, I've refined my moral stance, and attitudes on 'Political Correctness'......

I'm not Politically Correct. I'm an Auto-Moralist (I just invented that!) - wholly accountable for my own moral stance and behaviour in the world (a bit like an existentialist but with spiritual belief). I don't align myself to any one religious or political ideology and I refuse other people's labels for me. (Yeeeehaaaah!)

 

[Calamity Jane]

Fuck PC!

Well... ok

Political Correctness... I think it was a well intentioned concept, that it was meant to make us think about how our words can influence action. But, like most well intentioned concepts, it went too far. I don't have to like people, I don't have to be nice to them. If I want to say that so and so is a fat, short, balding woman, then I have that right.

Should I aspire to be more fair thinking? Probably. Should I constantly censor myself so that everyone is comfortable? Hell no. Comfort begets laziness. No one in this nation is guaranteed comfort.

If something offends me, it's my responsibility to remove myself from the situation, not sit there waiting for someone else to rescue me.

Multi-culturalization is a good thing. However, it has also been taken too far. My little sisters had to make Hannukah and Kwanzaa decorations for school (elementary), but Christmas was not mentioned. There were banners hanging in the school wishing people of every culture happiness, except of course, Christmas was ignored. My mother questioned the tactic and was told that "Merry Christmas" violated the separation of church and state... but that Happy Hannukah didn't because Jews had been oppressed... this is the thinking that political correctness has created. That someone's feelings are somehow more valid if they've been oppressed in recent history... and that's just bullshit.