Poetry

[Masterisall]

Well, I don't know what to say.. I mean, I know the proper labels for poems and everything but I just don't care about them.. Everything to me is free style. I mean, If I happen to write a sonnet.. I don't look at it as sonnet.. I look at it as poetry. Just another poem i wrote... Is that bad?

 

[Maria2394]

I dont think its bad, or wrong.

I do believe it is possible to clog your head up with so many definitions and rules that it stifles your creativity.



maria

 

[Tzara]

Well, I don't know what to say.. I mean, I know the proper labels for poems and everything but I just don't care about them.. Everything to me is free style. I mean, If I happen to write a sonnet.. I don't look at it as sonnet.. I look at it as poetry. Just another poem i wrote... Is that bad?

Yes.



Oh! You probably want an explanation why. That takes time. Hang on a bit.

 

[Tzara]

Well, I don't know what to say.. I mean, I know the proper labels for poems and everything but I just don't care about them.. Everything to me is free style. I mean, If I happen to write a sonnet.. I don't look at it as sonnet.. I look at it as poetry. Just another poem i wrote... Is that bad?

OK. Let's talk about this.

The answer depends on what your intent is regarding poetry. If all you want to do is noodle around for your personal amusement, or write something that you think your SO would find romantic or amusing or sexy, then, no. It isn't bad.

In any case, it is not wrong, as in morally wrong. There are many morally wrong things in the world. Not paying attention to the elements of poetry is not one of those things.

But.

Poetry is both art and craft, as is any art, or even any skilled activity. If you, for example, want to communicate with other practitioners of that art/craft, you need to use the correct language to do so. Otherwise, you can't communicate.

Say you just "happen" to write some poem that just somehow turns out to be fourteen lines, in iambic pentameter, with a rhyme scheme of abab cdcd efef gg. To say something like "no, that's not a sonnet, it's just poetry" would mark you as someone either stupid or pretentious or both. Of course it's a sonnet, it's an effing Shakespearean sonnet, and if you don't know that, you are either posturing or astoundingly dimwitted. How would you talk to anyone about it without talking about how well or poorly it worked as a sonnet?

One of my pet peeves (yes, I am ranting now) is how people think that "poetry just flows out of [their] soul." Emotion is important, of course, but so is craft. Furniture, for example, doesn't just "flow out of the soul" of a carpenter. He's gotta know how to use the tools, what the various kinds of joints are, know something about different woods, etc.

So with poetry. If you don't know, or don't care about, the terms, the tools (meter, rhyme, metaphor, alliteration, synecdoche, whatever), you aren't writing poetry. Not good poetry, anyway. Which is not the same as saying that knowing about those things ensures that you will write good poetry. Not at all. Knowing how to use a mitre saw correctly doesn't mean you can build anything with it.

But unless you know some tools and have some skills, you will just be building crap.

Why, of course, it isn't easy. Too many people think it's easy. It most definitely is not.

My opinion, of course, which I hope is what you were looking for.

 

[champagne1982]

<snip>Knowing how to use a mitre saw correctly doesn't mean you can build anything with it.

But unless you know some tools and have some skills, you will just be building crap.</snip>

Hey! I know how to use a mitre saw, and I've never used it to build anything. It cuts stuff at an angle quite nicely though. To build crap, one must have a hammer .

 

[champagne1982]

Hi again, Jesse. I get what you're saying to a degree. I mean it's all semantics when we start labelling poetry as a particular type of poem. The problem with this point of view, however, is to say that jazz is music and classical symphony pieces are music so, it follows that everything musical is the same thing.

Part of the richness of human communication comes from our ability to recognize Beethoven's 9th as music, as well as placing it in a category more descriptive of its content, that of being a symphony.

So although a sonnet is a poem, isn't it wonderful to be able to say a sonnet is a poem that belongs in a category with all the other sonnets? That way when you read it, you know exactly what to expect.

 

[Maria2394]

OK. Let's talk about this.

The answer depends on what your intent is regarding poetry. If all you want to do is noodle around for your personal amusement, or write something that you think your SO would find romantic or amusing or sexy, then, no. It isn't bad.

In any case, it is not wrong, as in morally wrong. There are many morally wrong things in the world. Not paying attention to the elements of poetry is not one of those things.

But.

Poetry is both art and craft, as is any art, or even any skilled activity. If you, for example, want to communicate with other practitioners of that art/craft, you need to use the correct language to do so. Otherwise, you can't communicate.

Say you just "happen" to write some poem that just somehow turns out to be fourteen lines, in iambic pentameter, with a rhyme scheme of abab cdcd efef gg. To say something like "no, that's not a sonnet, it's just poetry" would mark you as someone either stupid or pretentious or both. Of course it's a sonnet, it's an effing Shakespearean sonnet, and if you don't know that, you are either posturing or astoundingly dimwitted. How would you talk to anyone about it without talking about how well or poorly it worked as a sonnet?

One of my pet peeves (yes, I am ranting now) is how people think that "poetry just flows out of [their] soul." Emotion is important, of course, but so is craft. Furniture, for example, doesn't just "flow out of the soul" of a carpenter. He's gotta know how to use the tools, what the various kinds of joints are, know something about different woods, etc.

So with poetry. If you don't know, or don't care about, the terms, the tools (meter, rhyme, metaphor, alliteration, synecdoche, whatever), you aren't writing poetry. Not good poetry, anyway. Which is not the same as saying that knowing about those things ensures that you will write good poetry. Not at all. Knowing how to use a mitre saw correctly doesn't mean you can build anything with it.

But unless you know some tools and have some skills, you will just be building crap.

Why, of course, it isn't easy. Too many people think it's easy. It most definitely is not.

My opinion, of course, which I hope is what you were looking for.

Oh, lord, T!! you get so excited!!

now, take me for example. I am not educated in writing, you know this. I know the bare minimum and at times, my stuff does flow, but I have never flowed a sonnet and hope I never get so anal that all I can THINK about is writing one!!

BUt, you have awonderful point...if you wanna read a sonnet, it would be really a pain in the ass, to say the least, to have to sort through a billion poems looking for a sonnet, specifically ":")

so...if masterisall is wanting to write, in the mood to write, should he be required to choose a form and concentrate on that only? Or is it okay to just write with no specific goal in mind?

Im curious, because that was a good question. I answered that it wasnt bad, and you said it was... ( to not know the terms...when I came here I had never even heard the term enjambments, barely knew what iambic meant...) ya'll have been good teachers

ie--When Beethoven began composing, did he have an inherent knowledge of all musical terms and focus on them, or did he just let go and compose...

I dont know




m

 

[Tzara]

Oh, lord, T!! you get so excited!!

now, take me for example. I am not educated in writing, you know this. I know the bare minimum and at times, my stuff does flow, but I have never flowed a sonnet and hope I never get so anal that all I can THINK about is writing one!!

BUt, you have awonderful point...if you wanna read a sonnet, it would be really a pain in the ass, to say the least, to have to sort through a billion poems looking for a sonnet, specifically ":")

so...if masterisall is waning to write, in the mood to write, should he be required to choose a form and concentrate on that only? Or is it okay to just write with no specific goal in mind?

Im curious, because that was a good question. I answered that it wasnt bad, and you said it was...

ie--When Beethoven began composing, did he have an inherent knowledge of all musical terms and focus on them, or did he just let go and compose...

I dont know




m

O, sweet Marie
Up in that tree,
Of thee I sing. . .

Sorry. Just, um, gatherin' myself together here. Hmmph.

My point, if I have one and I may not, is that poetry has a big-time craft component to it. You have to understand things about the craft, even if at only an intuitional level, to be any good at it. You don't want to be any good at it, or don't care if you're any good at it, then of course all bets are off. Flail away.

Do you need to know (to be very specific) what a sonnet is? No, but if you don't, your peers won't respect you much, which will likely severely restrict your commentary from other poets. (This guy's an idiot. Why should I talk to him?)

Perhaps I am overreacting. I am (just saying, for the women in the audience) way overreactive. Call me.

Sorry. Advertisement.

My point is this: You want to write poetry, and want to write it well, you study the form and the elements. If you don't, it is like you're trying to build a chair without knowing anything about tools or joints. Can you build something that functions as a chair? Yeah, probably. Will it be aesthetically pleasing? Uh, no.

Matter of degree, of course. None of us are expert on poetry. But the idea is, you work on it. What frosts me is the attitude (not necessarily M's attitude, which was more questioning) that you don't need to know anything to write poetry.

OK, so I had a bad day at work. Sue me. Wait. Don't sue me. I can't afford the attorney's fees.

Oh, and hey. . .

 

[The_Fool]

All this talk about sonnets in making my skin crawl....

Now if Ange were here she would be getting a woodie...if she could get a woodie that is....

 

[Maria2394]

HUgs, Tzara

I wasnt fussing at you, just curious as well, because it is frequently I read things that cause me to feel very ignorant.
I am sorry you had a bad day at work and I would make it all better if I could.

I like what you said, it sort of made me feel better though, this part...

My point..... is that poetry has a big-time craft component to it. You have to understand things about the craft, even if at only an intuitional level

isnt the intuition also known as the flow? Thats what I mean when I use that term, you just said it so much better



m

 

[vampiredust]

I'm with Tzara on this one.

Poetry is a craft and knowing how everything works is essential in order to understand it effectively both as a reader and writer.

Even if you only write for pleasure, knowing the ins and outs can be beneficial in helping to write more effective poems for you as a writer.

 

[Maria2394]

sure it helps to know every little term and meaning....but who knows everything!!! and does not knowing somehow invalidate what a person who is not trained writes?


I have read what I consider to be pure tripe and people gush how great it is because its sterile, to me, its sterile, sure, great form, impeccable line breaks, the meter would make shapespeare proud, but the content...sterile, often cryptic and boring

now it might look good on paper, on the screen, but if it doesnt move me, its crap

and ...
thats what bugs me, the attitude, the way some people look down their noses at thoe of us who dont have a degree, some of us who still pen with emotion.

thats what is bad and wrong.

and as for my statement to masterisall about it not being bad?

write dude, thats all that matters, not what we think about what you know, just write

 

[vampiredust]

sure it helps to know every littel term and meaning....but who knows everything!!! and does not knowing somehow invalidate what a person who is not trained writes?

thats what bugs me, the attitude, the way some people look down their noses at thoe of us who dont have a degree.

tahst what s bad and wrong.

and as for my statement to masterisall about it not being bad?

write dude, thats all that matters, not what we think about what you know, just write

I agree

 

[annaswirls]

Oh, lord, T!! you get so excited!!



m

he gets ME so excited when he goes on like this... and then all of this talk about woodwork flowing from the soul.....shivers

 

[Masterisall]

WOW what a response... THANKS ALOT

Now, I think I will do the oppsisite of my origininal post... Well.. alot of times i write poems and i dont name them.. well.. just give then a number or even sometimes a random letter.. and sometimes i arleady had that letter but i leave it the same.. I think this is a bad idea.

 

[Maria2394]

Darling Anna!!

Have you purchased any new power tools since you moved?

 

[Maria2394]

WOW what a response... THANKS ALOT

Now, I think I will do the oppsisite of my origininal post... Well.. alot of times i write poems and i dont name them.. well.. just give then a number or even sometimes a random letter.. and sometimes i arleady had that letter but i leave it the same.. I think this is a bad idea.

what is a bad idea? We talk like this all the time... we really love one another here, truly do

and we love you too!!

good luck with your writing!!

 

[Tzara]

he gets ME so excited when he goes on like this... and then all of this talk about woodwork flowing from the soul.....shivers

If I was hardwood
and made chair, would
you come and sit on me?

I'll come back later and rant some more, saith the ranter evermore.

 

[EriAliSaa]

Would it be terribly wrong of me to pop popcorn and enjoy the show? It would be Blast-of-butter microwave popcorn if that makes a difference....

This is not exactly on the exact topic that Masterisall started or even really along the lines of m#'s point of.... well I am not going to paraphrase her point for fear of getting wrong or creating a bigger issue of it. But it is near those points.

Though those that master a craft are celebrated for their mastery, isn't it those that break the rules and innovate that are legend and put on a pillar once it has been recognized that they have taken a art to a new place, a new level?

IT’S all I have to bring to-day,
This, and my heart beside,
This, and my heart, and all the fields,
And all the meadows wide.
Be sure you count, should I forget,—
Some one the sun could tell,—
This, and my heart, and all the bees
Which in the clover dwell.

-Emily Dickinson

In all honesty I can watch (I read as well but that doesn't bug bother anyone else) Shakespeare until my family is plotting to dig a very big hole in the backyard.... of someone else's house no less, and bury every movie in the house that is seen as a "mommy movie". There has been a time or two that I think the discussion has seen me be put into hole as well Philistines to be sure.

But even I bore with too much of age old polished mastery. I bore with seeing writer after writer try to "perfect" or emulate the old masters as the latest summer blockbuster.... that has really become formulery and stiff in the retelling and regurgitating of the same old classic form and function of the old masteries.

Those that make the biggest splashes are not the guardians of form function and tradition. It are those that see beyond those things and take it light-years further. Mozart, Uncle Walt, Welles, even I dare say Tzara. I mean wasn't the premise of the Dada movement to fight art with art? Sort an an anti-art?

I guess this hits close to home. I was never educated as much as I wanted to be in writing. And maybe I merely muddle through because of it. But the temptation to improve others works to fit the norm can be destructive.

Imagine if you will, that Emily had indeed allowed Higginson to "polish" her works to read more like say.... Tennyson. She might have very well been recognized in her time.... but would she be the influence, and indeed iconoclastic as she is today? Would her work, which broke all poetic conventions when she wrote them, be as easily recognizable as it is if she had published in her lifetime and allowed her formidable talent to be "improved"?

I have the gumption to speculate, that yes she would be among the greats, but not been as important to poetry or changed it as much as she did if she had. I am reasonably sure that it would not have had as much impact on me and I am grateful for that. Because she not only made a long and lasting impact on the way I write, but also the way I carry, think, and feel myself.

I am not saying that is what anyone is doing in this particular instance. Far from it. But I know the temptation is there to do just that in any situation and it all comes back to the rules, form, function, and traditions.

I think the great write writers wrote their masterpieces despite them when it suited their purpose.

 

[Maria2394]

you are very articulate, Ali.

I would have buried MYSELF in your backyard if I had to live through half the movies my daughter watches

 

[Liar]

sure it helps to know every little term and meaning....but who knows everything!!! and does not knowing somehow invalidate what a person who is not trained writes?

To me, it's like composing music. Knowing your music theory and terms doesn't make your rhythms, melodies and harmonies more interresting. But it sometimes makes the work easier for you to turn your ideas into finished productions that others can enjoy. And it helps if you want to talk about it with other musicians.

 

[Maria2394]

ya'll have a good night



m

 

[annaswirls]

If I was hardwood
and made chair, would
you come and sit on me?

only if you turn yourself upside down....
I might have to sit down get up sit down get up sit down get up many many times before I get umm comfortable....make sure all of the legs are tested for strength...

com for table

where IS that table anyway?

damn why does everything seem sexy to me? I am not an adolescent male damn it!

 

[Tzara]

Now, I think I will do the oppsisite of my origininal post... Well.. alot of times i write poems and i dont name them.. well.. just give then a number or even sometimes a random letter.. and sometimes i arleady had that letter but i leave it the same.. I think this is a bad idea.

And I'll be contrary again. I don't see any problem with this. You're actually in good company.

There are a lot of people who don't title poems, or just number them. And Louis Zukofsky's major work is a zillion-line poem titled A. The letter stuff you mention sounds a little pretentious, but I am Pretentiousness Personified, so I'll let you skip on that one.

 

[Liar]

There are a lot of people who don't title poems, or just number them. And Louis Zukofsky's major work is a zillion-line poem titled A. The letter stuff you mention sounds a little pretentious, but I am Pretentiousness Personified, so I'll let you skip on that one.

Dunno if I can spell that. Is it ok if I just call you PP?


Titles. Heh. Most of the time, I could do without.