Poetry reviews

[fridayam]

Am I to take it that the poetry review/ recommendation thread is dead? There have been no reviews for a month. Those of us who contribute poems to the site in the hope that we might gain some feedback and relevant criticism, and are not interested in challenges and games, should maybe find somewhere else to post? What do you think?

 

[butters]

hiya, fridayam

it's a bit like this: you're more likely to get some direct feedback posting here on the forums directly than in the review thread, especially if you build up some ongoing rapport with other poets here by visiting their threads and adding your own comments. The review thread relies upon those of us who are a) interested in reviewing and b) those who have the time. this can fluctuate at any time due to other aspects of our lives intervening. it would be nice to have the reviewing as an integral feature of the site, but we don't get paid and we're all volunteering our time and efforts. There's nothing stopping you or anyone else adding your own reviews to the review page. i wish more people would!

it can get a bit time-consuming, and many of our reviews pass by unremarked upon by the poets whose works we've reviewed too. it's a two-way street. I have to admit to forgetting about reviewing today, and having only a little interest the past few weeks, having been too mentally busy to want to spend time reviewing instead of trying to give some of my own creativity a bit of exposure.

 

[fridayam]

I understand the demands of life on time, believe me! But I'm confused about what the poets who contribute to the Forum think about the poems that are put up every day. I do not want to offend, but challenges and contests do not interest me (in fact it feels the exact opposite of what the creation of a poem should be about). I am sure you are not implying that the playing of verbal games is more important than the creation of decent poetry, and yet I look at the board and see verbal games everywhere and no feedback. I try and comment on good poems as they come up, yet I can't help having the sneaking feeling that too many people are so busy doing their challenges that good poetry is passing by unnoticed under their noses.

What do you think?

 

[Angeline]

I understand the demands of life on time, believe me! But I'm confused about what the poets who contribute to the Forum think about the poems that are put up every day. I do not want to offend, but challenges and contests do not interest me (in fact it feels the exact opposite of what the creation of a poem should be about). I am sure you are not implying that the playing of verbal games is more important than the creation of decent poetry, and yet I look at the board and see verbal games everywhere and no feedback. I try and comment on good poems as they come up, yet I can't help having the sneaking feeling that too many people are so busy doing their challenges that good poetry is passing by unnoticed under their noses.

What do you think?

I don't think you should leave; I think you should do reviews. I was one of the people who set up that daily review thread way back when, so I can assure you that anyone is more than welcome to give their reviews or recommendations at any time. The only reason we set it up with a different person committed to a review each day was to try to ensure that someone would read and comment on new poems each day. Right now we don't have anyone who can commit to more than a sporadic review, so if you (and your friends) want daily reviews you should start doing them.

I did reviews here at least once a week for years, at least four years. I put my time in, although you are right that I may be missing out on good poems now. And fyi I'm not doing the challenges either, not right now, mainly because I'm in the midst of moving across the country over the next month.

You do know that anyone who does a review here does so voluntarily, no one gets paid or rewarded in any way to do them, right? All of us who have done reviews over the years did so because we're nice and because we love poetry. It's uh not like a service Literotica provides or anything.

 

[annaswirls]

I totally feel your frustration. It used to be that the New Poems were what Literotica was all about, and the forum was a place to let off steam (or build it up) but I do not see that as the case now, nor has it been for a couple of years.

I confess that I have not even looked at the New Poems in months. Yes, many many good poems are going unread, unreviewed, unrecognized and under appreciated. You are right about that

It was nice when I was new that there was a set system in place for reviews. As I became used to the place, I stepped up and took on the responsibility of reviewing. It was all give and take.

It is different now, and I am not saying it is a bad thing, just very different. Now Literotica poetry world seems to reside on the boards, a lot of socializing, a lot of writing, contemplation, etc.

I don't want you to leave. But in all honesty, if you are looking for lively discussion on poems, I would suggest posting them in the forum or finding another place. I can recommend a few that are very active and at different levels of seriousness.

I feel the void of feedback here as well, forums and New Poems. I think maybe many of us are so comfortable around each other that it is like an old married couple, I mean, how many times can you say "hey I like that dress" to someone who has been wearing it for 20 years. lol okay not that bad.

BUT

There are places on the forum that DO get comments, that are not challengey or gamey or chitter chattery.

Poetry in Progress is one.

Give it a shot. I promise I will comment.

~anna

I understand the demands of life on time, believe me! But I'm confused about what the poets who contribute to the Forum think about the poems that are put up every day. I do not want to offend, but challenges and contests do not interest me (in fact it feels the exact opposite of what the creation of a poem should be about). I am sure you are not implying that the playing of verbal games is more important than the creation of decent poetry, and yet I look at the board and see verbal games everywhere and no feedback. I try and comment on good poems as they come up, yet I can't help having the sneaking feeling that too many people are so busy doing their challenges that good poetry is passing by unnoticed under their noses.

What do you think?

 

[annaswirls]

Am I to take it that the poetry review/ recommendation thread is dead? There have been no reviews for a month. Those of us who contribute poems to the site in the hope that we might gain some feedback and relevant criticism, and are not interested in challenges and games, should maybe find somewhere else to post? What do you think?

I really really really think that you and the other relatively new to literotica folks (or here a long time, just not active on the boards) should totally storm the review thread and take control. Seriously. That is how it started, it can re-start that was as well.

OR start a NEW review thread with your own way of doing it. Seriously, this place is what you make it. People who do reviews for a while get sick of it and never want to go back.

 

[annaswirls]

Hey, put a link to your poetry page in your sig line so that people can click and read you, like I wanted to just now.


okay I am ashamed. I will go read the new poems. I kind of miss it. I just got so increasingly disappointed in the lack of reads let alone comments that I gave up.

 

[champagne1982]

I understand the demands of life on time, believe me! But I'm confused about what the poets who contribute to the Forum think about the poems that are put up every day. I do not want to offend, but challenges and contests do not interest me (in fact it feels the exact opposite of what the creation of a poem should be about). I am sure you are not implying that the playing of verbal games is more important than the creation of decent poetry, and yet I look at the board and see verbal games everywhere and no feedback. I try and comment on good poems as they come up, yet I can't help having the sneaking feeling that too many people are so busy doing their challenges that good poetry is passing by unnoticed under their noses.

What do you think?

There's this little thing called "time management" that I really suck at. I have been in a bit of a self-creative slump for a while, so for the most part, anything new posted by me is just something I've lifted up for a look.

If you feel there are good poems being missed by the participants of the pobo, shake your tail feathers smooth and turn one of them into a quill... Get writing. It's no one's job to review poetry so it shouldn't be taken for granted that a poet gets a review or critique just because they post a poem on Literotica.

You want it. Do it.

 

[annaswirls]

Hey, put a link to your poetry page in your sig line so that people can click and read you, like I wanted to just now.


okay I am ashamed. I will go read the new poems. I kind of miss it. I just got so increasingly disappointed in the lack of reads let alone comments that I gave up.

okay I read the first half. omg there are so few poems there!

I forgot how much I hated cum crusted anything in poetry.

But there was some decent stuff there. I left comments.

Now seriously, the active poets need to be the ones who are doing the commenting and reviews. All else reeks of self-importance (a scent I wear well)

 

[darkerdreamer]

I forgot how much I hated cum crusted anything in poetry.

For my wife I decided to take
a class or two to learn how to bake.
For the pastries I lusted
so they became cum crusted
but at least she enjoyed the cake.

 

[Tzara]

I'll try to answer your questions as honestly as I can, even if that means you won't like the answers much.

Am I to take it that the poetry review/ recommendation thread is dead?

Yeah, pretty much. It's been declining for years and now is essentially dead. If you think it's important, consider restarting it by taking a day and reviewing reliably. Recruit other poets who feel as you do. That'll fix the problem.

I, like many of the people here, had a go at reviewing. I think I did them for something like a year or so. I got tired of it, for various reasons, and stopped.

There have been no reviews for a month. Those of us who contribute poems to the site in the hope that we might gain some feedback and relevant criticism, and are not interested in challenges and games, should maybe find somewhere else to post? What do you think?

If what you are looking for is a workshop site where you submit poems, get comments, give comments (usually a requirement), then, yeah. You might be happier elsewhere. There are a lot of poetry workshop sites that I think might be more in tune with what you appear to be looking for. People here have said good things about Editred and Wild Poetry Forum. I've used the latter and think it's pretty good.

I understand the demands of life on time, believe me! But I'm confused about what the poets who contribute to the Forum think about the poems that are put up every day.

Quite frankly, I think that, oh, at least 90% or so of the poems posted in New Poems are awful. (Not yours, by the way. I read some of yours. Just sayin'.) Why I don't much look at the New Poems anymore. This didn't used to be the case, but at some point the poets that interested me seemed to move away from posting to Lit to posting in threads in the PF&D. I personally think that was a bad thing that contributed to the decline of the forum itself, but it wasn't obvious that that would be the effect at the time.

I do not want to offend, but challenges and contests do not interest me (in fact it feels the exact opposite of what the creation of a poem should be about). I am sure you are not implying that the playing of verbal games is more important than the creation of decent poetry, and yet I look at the board and see verbal games everywhere and no feedback.

I personally find the challenges and contests interesting. And I love verbal games--in fact would say that, to a large degree, that the clever use of language is what attracts me to poetry.

And what about "verbal games" is not "decent poetry?"

I suspect we have some artistic differences here.

I try and comment on good poems as they come up, yet I can't help having the sneaking feeling that too many people are so busy doing their challenges that good poetry is passing by unnoticed under their noses.

What do you think?

I think that, by and large, the poets I am interested in post mainly in the forum and participate in its "verbal games."

I think you're very right that if anyone talented comes along and posts in New Poems, most of us will overlook them. And, yes, I think that is a problem. I think , actually, that it's a big reason why the forum itself has kind of faded/waned/attenuated over the years. But more because there is not the general participation in the New Poems posts as there used to be.

The forum has a lot of threads, some mentioned by others above, that have nothing to do with contests or "verbal games."

But, as I said above, if you're really interested in a workshop that is quite straightforwardly comment oriented, you might be happier elsewhere.

Or not.

 

[annaswirls]

For my wife I decided to take
a class or two to learn how to bake.
For the pastries I lusted
so they became cum crusted
but at least she enjoyed the cake.

I am taping this to my fridge

 

[butters]

*snip* People here have said good things about Editred*snip*

unless ER has pulled itself out of the grasp of the mostly untalented, unoriginal and downright boring "poets" posting on the forums, then it's not. It used to be, for sure, and maybe is once again. that's not to say the site overall isn't worth looking at (i speak only of the poetry boards/posts), only if you are after decent feedback ... well, i had to leave. it was simply too childish, sycophantic, back-patty and 'don't you dare say anything negative'.

 

[butters]

just quickly: it IS a shame this site doesn't have poetry reviewers as a fixed feature, hiring 'staff' as it were to do the job. poets are like a bottomless pit, always needing some recognition ... we all do. and nothing's more satisfying to read than a decent crit by a person who knows what they're talking about. it gets frustrating for any of us not to get feedback - it's like tossing the fruits of our labour into a bottomless well.

 

[Epmd607]

I still read the new poems page at least twice a week. SapphosSister reappeared possibly last week. Vrosej comments here and on the new poems page still. I send the poet a message if I love their poem, I don't do half-hearted replies or reviews anymore. Fridayam, it looks like you are welcome to review every day of the week. In contests you get real results. Am I getting better, going nowhere? It forces you to try and write your best. Competition and comparison is what poetry had been about for eternity. You think when one Greek or Viking tribe met another kin tribe their poets didn't compete to see who told the best, most entertaining version of their history?

 

[EroticOrogeny]

I can second a lot of what has been said here.
I did reviews once a week for about half a year and both time constraints and the few poems worth mentioning that showed up in the new poems led to my stopping reviews.
There are a lot of threads here which provide support in one form or another for writing and reviwing poems.
The challenges can be both good and bad - sometimes one's muse doesn't respond to some proposed trigger, at others something new comes out as a result.

 

[PandoraGlitters]

Two Way Street

I understand that it is valuable to get a sense of what people think of one's writing. I lead a workshop in Second Life each Saturday for that sort of discussion and reviewed here for many months (not sure how long--seemed a long time). The thing is, after all of that, I rarely got the sense that the poets I interacted with noticed my comments or recommendations and further, after 3 years I finally took one of my own poems down from the submission site because in that entire time it got only one vote. (From AnnaSwirls, I believe, who gave it a 5. Thank you, AS!) I had to prioritize my time online and realized that I get more out of the forum side of the site than out of the submission side of the site.

Maybe we need to go back to some sort of workshop model where the people who contribute to a thread expect to also get feedback so that people can stay motivated to contribute commentary?

 

[Tzara]

I am taping this to my fridge

You want cum-crusted limericks on your refrigerator?

Ick. Is that some Texas thing?

 

[Tzara]

Maybe we need to go back to some sort of workshop model where the people who contribute to a thread expect to also get feedback so that people can stay motivated to contribute commentary?

Commentary is always a problem. We all want it, value it, but (mostly) don't contribute it.

I think there are a lot of reasons for that, probably most of all that we have formed friendships (at least, of an online kind) and dislike saying negative things about our friend's poetry.

But why should "negative" comments be bad?

There used to be people here who would say what they thought. They got pissed on by people who felt they were simply being "mean."

I don't have any clever solution to this. I like people here and don't want to be a meanie, but I want to be useful (as commentator) as well. I know we can moderate our comments, but the best ones I've ever seen (for me personally, Eve and Fly, who each quite slammed lines in poems I wrote) are very direct. foehn (sp?), once called one of my poems "clever dickery," which was probably both accurate and which, though I'm expect this was not his intent, pleased me.

I'm rambling. Shit. Get me off the stage.

I guess I think we need to decide as community how to approach the criticism thang. How much we want to do, how we do it.

And what part new poets play in that.

I have no brilliant solutions. Anybody else?

(Punt.)

 

[Palba_Noruda]

I understand the demands of life on time, believe me! But I'm confused about what the poets who contribute to the Forum think about the poems that are put up every day.

I look at them very rarely. The forum seems more alive to me. More immediate. I really like the interaction (and I'm not even that great of an interactor...) And if I'm going to spend yet another hour of my life staring at a screen, I'm going to do it in a place where I can have a little conversation (i.e. the forum). Where I will be acknowledged and where I can play off of other people's comments. I very much enjoy the dialogue aspect of the forum. That is quite different than posting in new poems. I love conversing with people more immediately. All poems are part of a conversation, I suppose. But, especially because of my current living circumstance, I need the dialogue to be more than it would be if I posted to new poems.

I have been a big fan of literotica for a long time. I Started with reading stories on and off for many years. I learned a lot from those stories LOL. Looked at the poetry only occasionally. Finally joined the forum, my first forum. I was very nervous to join LOL (I joined under a different name, FYI). I think both Literotica and the forum are brilliant sites. I had a strange experience submitting a couple poems to Literotica. Both were rejected. I got great feedback on one of the rejections, which was a prose poem. Basically, it was: this is an exact account of what happened, in order to be poetry, you need to use some figurative language. Simple enough advice, but very much what I needed to hear just then. Changed what I did a lot. I started writing three similes a day just for practice, LOL.

Oh, and while I was waiting for those poems to go up, I checked the review thread all the time, just waiting for somebody to mention me LOL. That's probably how I got started posting in the poetry thread. I guess I put a few poems up in the suddenly passion thread, and I got some really nice feedback from a few people (Thank you Dora and Chippy!)

I do not want to offend, but challenges and contests do not interest me (in fact it feels the exact opposite of what the creation of a poem should be about).

Please do tell us what the creation of a poem should be about. That's a topic some here like to discuss.

I am sure you are not implying that the playing of verbal games is more important than the creation of decent poetry, and yet I look at the board and see verbal games everywhere and no feedback. I try and comment on good poems as they come up, yet I can't help having the sneaking feeling that too many people are so busy doing their challenges that good poetry is passing by unnoticed under their noses.

What do you think?

That is probably true, but the same can be said for a lot of different things. There are a lot of mountains to be climbed, oceans to be swum in, people to meet, books to be read, poems to be written, etc. We have discussed quite a lot lately the purposes for writing poems, I wonder what people's reasons are for reading poems. Ooh, I think that would be a good thread. I will likely start it in a while


It's very nice that you want worthwhile poetry to be looked at. If you want YOUR worthwhile poetry looked at, I would take the suggestion somebody made above: put a link to your poetry in your sig. Then post to the forum every once in a while. Drive people to your poetry. It's a bit of marketing, isn't it? And if you want feedback on your poems, give feedback to others on the forum. Then, if you're feeling bold, ask for feedback in return. Or, in your sig, say: "Please read my poem and give me feedback." Be a little creative, be a little aggressive. Send poems to people in Private Messages and ask them to give you a little feedback. Or ask them to respond in the form of a poem. Start with me if you like.

And if none of those approaches work, you can always post a single-poem thread, asking for feedback. Your poem will be looked at. You will be able to see exactly how many times it was looked at. And you WILL get feedback.

I'm rambling. Shit. Get me off the stage.

I'm rambling bad...

 

[darkerdreamer]

I guess I think we need to decide as community how to approach the criticism thang. How much we want to do, how we do it.

And what part new poets play in that.

I have no brilliant solutions. Anybody else?

There is generally no common consensus when it comes to criticism in any form of art. There are those that can take a beating and eat it up, those who say they can but really can't, and those who want to live in a blissful bubble thinking their art is perfect as is.

One of the only other poetry communities had a simple solution of having the poet mark their poems with Com (for commentary only), Crit (for light criticism on word choice/form/punctuation), and Truth (for no holds barred action, rake me over the coals and douse me with gasoline when you're done).

Personally, I liked Truth. I can take Truth though it can gnaw on me when I think I am on to something. But that gnawing can be good, it reminds you that no matter how proud of something you are, it can be better and it isn't always universally enjoyable. Hell, the work I've put out that I like is usually overlooked or disliked, and the ones I put out that people like I usually have no idea why.

I need sleep, I jumped on the ramblewagon and couldn't even come to a point.

 

[butters]

There is generally no common consensus when it comes to criticism in any form of art. There are those that can take a beating and eat it up, those who say they can but really can't, and those who want to live in a blissful bubble thinking their art is perfect as is.

One of the only other poetry communities had a simple solution of having the poet mark their poems with Com (for commentary only), Crit (for light criticism on word choice/form/punctuation), and Truth (for no holds barred action, rake me over the coals and douse me with gasoline when you're done).

Personally, I liked Truth. I can take Truth though it can gnaw on me when I think I am on to something. But that gnawing can be good, it reminds you that no matter how proud of something you are, it can be better and it isn't always universally enjoyable. Hell, the work I've put out that I like is usually overlooked or disliked, and the ones I put out that people like I usually have no idea why.

I need sleep, I jumped on the ramblewagon and couldn't even come to a point.

i am often surprised that people equate critiquing with this 'drag me over the coals' kind of affair. As far as i'm concerned, the best crits i've ever had are those that are simple, honest, address the poem not the poet's ability, point out both weaknesses and strengths, offer suggestions for improvement but with no sense of the critter's own ego, and are given holding the poem's own voice as the paramount feature. critiques are not about slamming a work in a derogatory fashion with no attempt at explaining why something doesn't work, and they're not about showcasing the critter; all too many i have read at various sites are about certain critters trying to make a name for themselves there. some expect a poet to change their work to incorporate every single change the critter tells them to, and will get all flouncy and huffy if they don't. ALL suggestions ought to be only that. ultimately, the poem is the work of the poet, not the critter.

on the other side of the coin, there are times when too many well-intentioned (though not always too clued-up) offer their crits, or even a clash of opinions between the advice of crits who know their stuff; this in itself can create all manner of problems where the poet whose work is under scrutiny is unable to incorporate all the different suggestions or that the suggestions just don't work for them and their poem. ANY and ALL changes a poet ever makes to their work must feel right, to them, as its creator. When a poet starts making changes that don't sit well with them just to please others who're commenting on their poem, it'll not end well.

having said all that, one of the best crits i ever received came from someone who wasn't a poet but who loved reading poetry. back in the days of my long and very verbose stuff, this guy (whom i both liked and respected) said one night (he was drunk at the time and didn't remember the next morning) "your long poems give me the shits". Now, he was responsible for making me take a big step back and look at what i was writing, HOW i was writing. And i went all minimal overnight. I found a far more concise way of saying what i wanted to say, without the words taking over and using me. it was the most helpful comment about my work i've ever received!

 

[hmmnmm]

I think reviewers perform a definitely underappreciated service.
Speaking from only personal experience, they served as something of lifelines when I first began to present poetic pennings here, feeling pretty darn uncertain about it all, so it was a really sweet boost to a day when, if I happened to submit a scribble, someone took the time to say it might not be as bad as I feared, or even if they offered a word of suggestion, something to think about with future stuff. But I found that I became dependent on them. Wasn't aware of the dependency until their reviews became less dependable. But it was good to be almost forced to do without them, see what what life would be, going without.

It's a tough call.

On the one hand, you shouldn't give a flying fuck if any other person likes your work. On the other, it would be difficult to deny at least a curiosity as to whether an idea worked or touched or spoke or in any way succeeded.

Overall, I agree that it is better to have reviewers if they'll do it than to have no reviewers or intermittent reviewers.

I did reviews for a brief while, back in '08-09, and I quite enjoyed it, but it was quite a lot of work too, I mean if you're shooting for the thorough, which I didn't mind so much, but I can say for sure that I had a lot more appreciation for the reviewers than I did during my early poet-Lit days, when I became dependent on an encouraging word from a reviewer.

So I can definitely appreciate friday's anguish, but when it comes to what to do about it? That's a tough one, since it's all free and volunteer.

Maybe just try to hang in there and wait until the Reviewer Wave comes back? Surely it will. And in the meantime, why not write?

 

[annaswirls]

You want cum-crusted limericks on your refrigerator?

Ick. Is that some Texas thing?

appetite suppressant

 

[annaswirls]

The New Poetry Reviewers were TOTALLY appreciated by me and others.

Tess caught my first poem and put it up. She pmmd me because I did not have my comments on. She invited me to the forum. If it were not for new poetry reviews I would have posted a few and gone in a different direction.

If we want "new blood" and new ideas, then we really should reconsider the reviewing task.

It is time consuming, yes, but I see the amount of time many of us put into the forum, and if 5% of that time were spent in New Poem reviews, we could definitely bring more interest to this place, and certainly meet interesting people.

With Eve and Lauren (love you BOTH) kind of absent from the forum, perhaps it is time to invite another moderator? It is too much for Angeline to handle on her own.

Perhaps instead of the poetry forum being divided into a hangout and whatever the other side is, maybe we should have two sections: Hangout and REVIEWS.

That is where people could post individual threads for review and feedback and also post reviews of new poems.

I think that if we divide the forum, it should only be in two and that there should be two sets of moderators. Moderators are NECESSARY to keep a forum alive and vibrant. It is a difficult job, more to do than we on the outside can tell.


Just my 5 cents.