Poetry is culture

[CharleyH]

Been sitting here talking to O about make-up - film - photoshoots. I said "you should try your hand at poetry BUT even if he won't be a good poet, it does help in the creative process!

"Poetry expands minds," I said briefly, but in a better intelligent fashion.

He asked why? I said it expands other avenues like art - narrative -fashion even.

I should be a consultant .I know ... my conclusion was odd though. I said to him there is nothing new, and we can only invent. We are post-modern and stuck, for 20 god damn years! Enslaved, in a way, by the fore mothers and fathers of poetry.

What is a new poetry form? Has there been one since ee.cummings? (FORGET LAUREN AND HYPER SONNETS )

What is NEW poetry?

 

[Angeline]

Been sitting here talking to O about make-up - film - photoshoots. I said "you should try your hand at poetry BUT even if he won't be a good poet, it does help in the creative process!

"Poetry expands minds," I said briefly, but in a better intelligent fashion.

He asked why? I said it expands other avenues like art - narrative -fashion even.

I should be a consultant .I know ... my conclusion was odd though. I said to him there is nothing new, and we can only invent. We are post-modern and stuck, for 20 god damn years! Enslaved, in a way, by the fore mothers and fathers of poetry.

What is a new poetry form? Has there been one since ee.cummings? (FORGET LAUREN AND HYPER SONNETS )

What is NEW poetry?

No Hypersonnets? Does this mean we can count Bobs either?

The only new forms I know are being created on this forum.

 

[CharleyH]

No Hypersonnets? Does this mean we can count Bobs either?

The only new forms I know are being created on this forum.

what is our non-post-modern poetry then? Do we even have a name for a movement? :|

EDIT TO ADD: A KISS (LIKE THAT gets me anywhere )

 

[Angeline]

what is our non-post-modern poetry then? Do we even have a name for a movement? :|

EDIT TO ADD: A KISS (LIKE THAT gets me anywhere )

I dunno. I think the concept of post-modern form in poetry is a nonsequitor. I do agree with Patrick that what seems to be in favor now is poetry that has a narrative orientation (which is berry berry good for me cause I write that way).

But careful on tossing around the term "post modern" lest Lauren come in here and lecture us both, hehe.

And I'll ya back but that's it! I'm going to snurgle up with ee soon and watch the Red Sox.

 

[Angeline]

And Charley, why not read some more old stuff? You love form, I can tell. Look at this Shakespeare from Romeo and Juliet. It's the first lines from old Montegue about his son, but it's such incredible poetry: and it's not even supposed to be a poem, just lines from a play.

Many morning hath he there been seen
With tears augmenting the fresh morning's dew,
Adding to clouds more clouds with his deep sighs.
But all so soon as the all-cheering sun
Should in the farthest East begin to draw
The shady curtains from Aurora's bed,
Away from light steals home my heavy son
And private in his chamber pens himself,
Shuts up his windows, locks fair daylight out,
And makes himself an artificial night.
Black portentious must this humour prove
Unless good counsel may the cause remove.

 

[anonamouse]

DEZE-eatin ' Völker kann mir ub-Frühlingslam Ub de Gloriz erklären ',
Ein ' ubtuckey und -wid de Toofsumnis cel'ry ein ' widstau;
Gebratenen widunyuns Ub sezoned die Rindfleisch-st'ak, ' herauf so feines --
Aber Sie ' das StammgimmeSchwein-fleisch JES, ' bin ich alles de Time glücklich.

Wenn de Fros' auf de Pun'kin ' ist, De sno'-blättert in de Ar ' ab,
Den I fangen rejoicin' an -- Schwein-killin' Zeit ist nahe;
Eine ' ubde Fucher de Vizhuns Denfülle meine allabendlich Träume,

notice how cleverly the Google translator retains the hidden word play of the orginal
Pun'kin
Fucher

Eine ' ubde Fucher de Vizhuns Denfülle meine allabendlich Träume,

 

[CharleyH]

I dunno. I think the concept of post-modern form in poetry is a nonsequitor. I do agree with Patrick that what seems to be in favor now is poetry that has a narrative orientation (which is berry berry good for me cause I write that way).

But careful on tossing around the term "post modern" lest Lauren come in here and lecture us both, hehe.

And I'll ya back but that's it! I'm going to snurgle up with ee soon and watch the Red Sox.

LOL I can handle you, Lauren and anyone on post modern. I am a guru.

NEED I REPEAT how Lauren HYNDE knows shit about post mod?

I think she hears!

 

[CharleyH]

anyone care to think of what is new in poetry? What could be? AKA: the real avant garde? When was the last surge and change in poetry, or art, or film OR - OR SEX??? OR ANYTHING? :| For that matter.

 

[Angeline]

anyone care to think of what is new in poetry? What could be? AKA: the real avant garde? When was the last surge and change in poetry, or art, or film OR - OR SEX??? OR ANYTHING? :| For that matter.

Ok. I could argue that Born Magazine and its ilk are the new frontier of poetry, where it is joined with interactive media. Some of us here illustrate poems, but Lauren's Hear My Name is the closest to what they do at Born, marrying poems with music and speech, visual art and film. Some might argue that only the words are the poems and this is so much more performance art, but if it is truely interactive, I think it is a new direction born of technology's increasing availability to artists.

I wonder what some of you like Neo and Anna and Liar and Eve think about that.

Before that prose poetry and the whole flash fiction and art born of blogging (also from the technology catalyst) are/were the avant garde, the cutting edge.

 

[CharleyH]

And Charley, why not read some more old stuff? You love form, I can tell. Look at this Shakespeare from Romeo and Juliet. It's the first lines from old Montegue about his son, but it's such incredible poetry: and it's not even supposed to be a poem, just lines from a play.

Many morning hath he there been seen
With tears augmenting the fresh morning's dew,
Adding to clouds more clouds with his deep sighs.
But all so soon as the all-cheering sun
Should in the farthest East begin to draw
The shady curtains from Aurora's bed,
Away from light steals home my heavy son
And private in his chamber pens himself,
Shuts up his windows, locks fair daylight out,
And makes himself an artificial night.
Black portentious must this humour prove
Unless good counsel may the cause remove.

Good god, I know Romeo and Juliet, and MacBeth back to hand. Lauren can neither take me on my post mod. or avante garde study, nor pop culture. SHE SCARES ME NOT on these things - other things ok :| LOL - you intimidate me on your knowledge of form. I love form - know it, and try desperately not to deal with it. Of anyone on Lit? You, Eve and Lauren should have a new form? Forget hyper sonnet, the Lauren is a snot, brown nose ass!! Who rarely writes form, though I love her up ... You, Eve, Fool, Tagatha et al ... why not change a form? What is art? What is poetry? Are they not the same?

 

[CharleyH]

Ok. I could argue that Born Magazine and its ilk are the new frontier of poetry, where it is joined with interactive media. Some of us here illustrate poems, but Lauren's Hear My Name is the closest to what they do at Born, marrying poems with music and speech, visual art and film. Some might argue that only the words are the poems and this is so much more performance art, but if it is truely interactive, I think it is a new direction born of technology's increasing availability to artists.

I wonder what some of you like Neo and Anna and Liar and Eve think about that.

Before that prose poetry and the whole flash fiction and art born of blogging (also from the technology catalyst) are/were the avant garde, the cutting edge.

I only tease Lauren because I think her amazing, and she knows it. I think you, and others here are capable of making a change in poetry. Why not? Why not do a variation of form? Perhaphs go beyond it Angeline, - you and Eve are THAT GOOD that you can ... play with genre, go beyond, generate anew? Is that not art? From one thing to another, and then ... beyond ... is that not avante garde? I am betting you three and a few others could ... do you, though?

 

[Angeline]

I only tease Lauren because I think her amazing, and she knows it. I think you, and others here are capable of making a change in poetry. Why not? Why not do a variation of form? Perhaphs go beyond it Angeline, - you and Eve are THAT GOOD that you can ... play with genre, go beyond, generate anew? Is that not art? From one thing to another, and then ... beyond ... is that not avante garde? I am betting you three and a few others could ... do you, though?

I'm only on a crusade for me, in competition with my own ability to grow as a writer because that's what I love. I love to play with words. Sometimes I think I'm pretty good, then I read Adrienne Rich or other writers--including some people here like Lauren, for example, and I feel like the worst charletan.

I think all one can do is be open-minded and keep reading and mostly keep writing. I think many of us here have learned from each other; we have moved in new directions together. That's good.

All I need to do now is convince some rich publisher that I could change the direction of poetry. Writing poems is the easy part.

 

[CharleyH]

I'm only on a crusade for me, in competition with my own ability to grow as a writer because that's what I love. I love to play with words. Sometimes I think I'm pretty good, then I read Adrienne Rich or other writers--including some people here like Lauren, for example, and I feel like the worst charletan.

I think all one can do is be open-minded and keep reading and mostly keep writing. I think many of us here have learned from each other; we have moved in new directions together. That's good.

All I need to do now is convince some rich publisher that I could change the direction of poetry. Writing poems is the easy part.

I disagree. Publishers are easy, writing poetry is not. I am staid in my thoughts on you Eve, Lauren, Fool and some others. Why are you not staid in how good you are?

Edit to add: is being confident NOT half the battle? I BET Flyguy knows, when he is back from vacation. He wrote a beuatiful piece that no one liked, yet in context of what it was? PERFECT metaphors ...at least. He said he removed it, sad

 

[bogusbrig]

what is our non-post-modern poetry then? Do we even have a name for a movement? :|

EDIT TO ADD: A KISS (LIKE THAT gets me anywhere )

Post Modernism is a nonsense label that attempts to link work of disparate styles that have nothing in common or the marrying together of disparate styles in one piece of work. Of course it comes from French philosophy, Foucault is widely acknowledged as the father of post modernism and like all philosophical theories, it ends up destroying its own arguements. You could say William Burroughs' cut and paste style was post modernism before post modernism, as with Kurt Schwitters' collages and many others. Where post modernism has been positive is in the fact that anything goes. Of course this lack of boundaries can be a white elephant and has led people into producing nonsense and been able to fend off rightful criticism because you can't criticize anything that has no rules because you have nothing to base your criticism on.

As for new styles. I think content leads a writer/artist into new styles. You have something to say so you set about saying it in the most eloquent way you can communicate your ideas and sometimes this requires the artist/writer into new areas of construction. I think if you invent a new style before content you'll probably end up with overly clever but vacuous work. You can really see this phenomena in the visual arts, especially cubism. You have Picasso's Les Mademoiselles D' Avignon which really had something to say but then you get a skip load of trite work that copied the style. OK An artist has to earn money and that means producing work.

The best thing a writer/artist can do is to be honest to their self and say what you have to say in the most eloquent way you can. Some will search for new ways of saying because they feel tradition and convention does not allow them their own voice and some will shine and produce great work inside the boundaries of tradition and convention. I think it would be easier to ask 'What is post modern poetry?' and everything that isn't is non-post modern poetry.

I think the moment writers/artists call themselves advante garde, you can bet your life they are not. It's a too knowing and self conscious title that indicates a 'wannabe' and not someone who is!

 

[Angeline]

Post Modernism is a nonsense label that attempts to link work of disparate styles that have nothing in common or the marrying together of disparate styles in one piece of work. Of course it comes from French philosophy, Foucault is widely acknowledged as the father of post modernism and like all philosophical theories, it ends up destroying its own arguements. You could say William Burroughs' cut and paste style was post modernism before post modernism, as with Kurt Schwitters' collages and many others. Where post modernism has been positive is in the fact that anything goes. Of course this lack of boundaries can be a white elephant and has led people into producing nonsense and been able to fend off rightful criticism because you can't criticize anything that has no rules because you have nothing to base your criticism on.

As for new styles. I think content leads a writer/artist into new styles. You have something to say so you set about saying it in the most eloquent way you can communicate your ideas and sometimes this requires the artist/writer into new areas of construction. I think if you invent a new style before content you'll probably end up with overly clever but vacuous work. You can really see this phenomena in the visual arts, especially cubism. You have Picasso's Les Mademoiselles D' Avignon which really had something to say but then you get a skip load of trite work that copied the style. OK An artist has to earn money and that means producing work.

The best thing a writer/artist can do is to be honest to their self and say what you have to say in the most eloquent way you can. Some will search for new ways of saying because they feel tradition and convention does not allow them their own voice and some will shine and produce great work inside the boundaries of tradition and convention. I think it would be easier to ask 'What is post modern poetry?' and everything that isn't is non-post modern poetry.

I think the moment writers/artists call themselves advante garde, you can bet your life they are not. It's a too knowing and self conscious title that indicates a 'wannabe' and not someone who is!

I tend to agree with you about postmodernism, particularly given this definition from Wikipedia:

In architecture, art, music and literature, postmodernism is a name for many stylistic reactions to, and developments from, modernism. Postmodern style is often characterized by eclecticism, digression, collage, pastiche, and irony. Some artistic movements commonly called postmodern are pop art, architectural deconstructivism, magical realism in literature, maximalism, and neo-romanticism. Postmodern theorists see postmodern art as a conflation or reversal of well-established modernist systems, such as the roles of artist versus audience, seriousness versus play, or high culture versus kitsch.

When a term is that broad, the meaning becomes diluted, but I do think there are writers who are classified as "postmodernists"--or modernists, like Wallace Stevens or Ezra Pound. I also agree with you that "avant garde" is a term that, for me, generally describes an "artist" I find indecipherable. It is possible to make words fit together syntactically but not semantically--some people think that's high art--if you look at what was being produced a few years back in literary journals like Calliope (now defunct, I think), Drunken Boat or Fence Magazine, you see that type of poetry being celebrated. I only know that a so-called poem that is cleverly constructed but meaningless is (again for me) the equivalent of an interesting parlour trick.

Then again I don't care to spend a lot of time judging this sort of thing--I'd rather just write. Writers who are led by movements or who get caught up in fitting themselves into whatever they perceive as the "cutting edge" miss the point. Writing is no more than expression, communication of something one has to say. Form poetry offers traditional ways to do that but yes, without content, why bother?

 

[eagleyez]

I tend to agree with you about postmodernism, particularly given this definition from Wikipedia:

In architecture, art, music and literature, postmodernism is a name for many stylistic reactions to, and developments from, modernism. Postmodern style is often characterized by eclecticism, digression, collage, pastiche, and irony. Some artistic movements commonly called postmodern are pop art, architectural deconstructivism, magical realism in literature, maximalism, and neo-romanticism. Postmodern theorists see postmodern art as a conflation or reversal of well-established modernist systems, such as the roles of artist versus audience, seriousness versus play, or high culture versus kitsch.

When a term is that broad, the meaning becomes diluted, but I do think there are writers who are classified as "postmodernists"--or modernists, like Wallace Stevens or Ezra Pound. I also agree with you that "avant garde" is a term that, for me, generally describes an "artist" I find indecipherable. It is possible to make words fit together syntactically but not semantically--some people think that's high art--if you look at what was being produced a few years back in literary journals like Calliope (now defunct, I think), Drunken Boat or Fence Magazine, you see that type of poetry being celebrated. I only know that a so-called poem that is cleverly constructed but meaningless is (again for me) the equivalent of an interesting parlour trick.

Then again I don't care to spend a lot of time judging this sort of thing--I'd rather just write. Writers who are led by movements or who get caught up in fitting themselves into whatever they perceive as the "cutting edge" miss the point. Writing is no more than expression, communication of something one has to say. Form poetry offers traditional ways to do that but yes, without content, why bother?

Im dumber n' a post. That modern enough for ya's.

 

[Angeline]

Im dumber n' a post. That modern enough for ya's.

Oh hushup and put yer pants on--let's go get some coffee.

 

[twelveoone]

Been sitting here talking to O about make-up - film - photoshoots. I said "you should try your hand at poetry BUT even if he won't be a good poet, it does help in the creative process!

"Poetry expands minds," I said briefly, but in a better intelligent fashion.

He asked why? I said it expands other avenues like art - narrative -fashion even.

I should be a consultant .I know ... my conclusion was odd though. I said to him there is nothing new, and we can only invent. We are post-modern and stuck, for 20 god damn years! Enslaved, in a way, by the fore mothers and fathers of poetry.

What is a new poetry form? Has there been one since ee.cummings? (FORGET LAUREN AND HYPER SONNETS )

What is NEW poetry?

Nice slogan, Charly. Whole thing reminds me of the new advertising. Incidental actions that approach the product tangentially. What are you selling? Or are you just talking nonsense?

Poetry is culture nice slogan, what does it say, what does it mean? What is your point by saying it? A feel good slogan for the audience? Why yes, I'm a poet and I'm cultured. Semiotics at work? You know as well as I there is a huge meaning shift as to what is Poetry, let alone culture. "Freedom is good". Why yes, of couse, but the meaning becomes so diffuse, that it really ceases to have any.

Been sitting here talking to O about make-up - film - photoshoots. I said "you should try your hand at poetry BUT even if he won't be a good poet, it does help in the creative process!

"Poetry expands minds," I said briefly, but in a better intelligent fashion.

He asked why? I said it expands other avenues like art - narrative -fashion even.

Nice vignette, you captured the way some people talk very well.
"Poetry expands minds," I said briefly, but in a better intelligent fashion."
Nice ironic touch here.
But does nothing to further your arguement, even though I am not really sure what it is is. Here I am not sure if this confusion is a deliberate attempt on your part, or if it is an active internal componet of yourself. In one thread you seem to argue that Madonna is the equal of T.S. Eliot, and I must assume you must have meant as a poet, since this whole group of nonsense is under the heading of "Poetry Feedback and Discussion". What make you think so? In another statement "End rhyme is childs play" and a disparagement of Mutt. What makes you think so? "Name one poet after Dylan Thomas", come on.

I should be a consultant .I know ... my conclusion was odd though. I said to him there is nothing new, and we can only invent. We are post-modern and stuck, for 20 god damn years! Enslaved, in a way, by the fore mothers and fathers of poetry.

Yes, you should be a consultant, you may be very good at it, most I've seen are very good at arguing for change without understanding the process, because after all it is the future; the good ones are about half right.
" I said to him there is nothing new, and we can only invent."
Again excellent use of irony, and of capturing the way some people talk.
This is interesting:
"fore mothers and fathers of poetry."
A statement of sorts? If you wanted to avoid gender specific, you could have used forebearers .
Enslaved? a bit of an overstatement, don't you think?

Good god, I know Romeo and Juliet, and MacBeth back to hand. Lauren can neither take me on my post mod. or avante garde study, nor pop culture. SHE SCARES ME NOT on these things - other things ok :| LOL - you intimidate me on your knowledge of form. I love form - know it, and try desperately not to deal with it. Of anyone on Lit? You, Eve and Lauren should have a new form? Forget hyper sonnet, the Lauren is a snot, brown nose ass!! Who rarely writes form, though I love her up ... You, Eve, Fool, Tagatha et al ... why not change a form? What is art? What is poetry? Are they not the same?

I only tease Lauren because I think her amazing, and she knows it. I think you, and others here are capable of making a change in poetry. Why not? Why not do a variation of form? Perhaphs go beyond it Angeline, - you and Eve are THAT GOOD that you can ... play with genre, go beyond, generate anew? Is that not art? From one thing to another, and then ... beyond ... is that not avante garde? I am betting you three and a few others could ... do you, though?

And these two statements amaze me, they really do, pleading for a new form, and yet..."I love form - know it, and try desperately not to deal with it." Reference to brown nosing, and yet... Loaded with angst ridden code words "What is art? What is poetry? Are they not the same?"
What is your attempt here?
To make the most noise, with the least amount of thought behind it, or some left-handed selling of something?

It's Orwell, Baby, Orwell, you want the 'future", you want the "new" create it. I will be there. Like "Emmanuel Goldstein".

 

[Guest]

https://forum.literotica.com/showthread.php?t=354148

 

[Tathagata]

what is our non-post-modern poetry then? Do we even have a name for a movement? :|

EDIT TO ADD: A KISS (LIKE THAT gets me anywhere )

as soon as you label something it dies



I always thought yogurt was culture....

 

[Tathagata]

https://forum.literotica.com/showthread.php?t=354148

Gump..you're a god damn genius

 

[Angeline]

as soon as you label something it dies



I always thought yogurt was culture....

Have you had the Stoneyfield Farms strawberry cheesecake yogurt? It's very good with granola.

Not that that has anything to do with the kind of culture this thread is *supposed* to be about, but absurdity is a postmodern hallmark, so maybe it does.

 

[Guest]

as soon as you label something it dies



I always thought yogurt was culture....

Dishy!

http://www.swep.com.au/Cultures.JPG

 

[Liar]

Gangsta rap is culture.
Beethoven is culture.
Cell phone ringtones is culture.
Carrot Top is culture.
Poetry is culture.
Standing in lines is culture.
BDSM is culture.
Cuisine is culture.
Religious rites are culture.
Culture Club is culure.
Farting in rhythm is culture.
Moliere is culture.
Spongebob Squarepants is culture.
My sigline is culture.
Spam is culture.
Porn is culture.
@ is culture.
§ is culture.
is culture.

 

[The_Fool]

Fault my logic:

If poetry is culture, then I don't write it.....

Redneck Fool